Russian Navy: Status & News #3

GarryB wrote:They ARE converting Oscars to Onyx missiles... and having every gunboat/corvette being more powerful than NATO frigates (which one specifically has land attack capability right now?) is a weakness? Really?

I'm not sure if it qualifies as either strategic or cruiser.

Can kill a lot of people 30 minutes after launch, qualifies to me as Strategic... it is already more powerful than the strategic bombing fleets of both UK and France combined... even just with one test missile fitted...
In fact it is more powerful than the strategic bombing forces of all of NATO except the US combined... with one Bulava missile.  

"ARE converting" means the capability is not there right now.
Also, that single Typhoon is active only on paper, it doesn't do patrols and doesn't get weapons besides testing them.

It is not a strategic anything, besides being a strategic weapons test-bed.

Guys let's not turn this into another Kuznetzov tread please.

You all seem to make some good points but never consider possibility that you might all be right.

Sieg is right when he says that Russia can now build subs at acceptable pace if not impressive. It's still acceptable.

Garry is right when he says that Russia needs lots of SSNs but number needs to be proportionate to role of Navy in Russia's defense doctrine.

Kilo is right when he says that Russia needs to stick with one platform instead of designing new on every decade after building token number of old ones. And 2 decades ago Akula would have been that platform. But this is 2017 and that platform now is Yasen, not Akula.

And I would like to remind everyone that it's pointless to take into account production speeds and spending from before 2010 (Georgia aftermath) because that is now firmly in "coulda, woulda, shoulda" territory.

PapaDragon wrote:
Guys let's not turn this into another Kuznetzov tread please.

You all seem to make some good points but never consider possibility that you might all be right.

Sieg is right when he says that Russia can now build subs at acceptable pace if not impressive. It's still acceptable.

Garry is right when he says that Russia needs lots of SSNs but number needs to be proportionate to role of Navy in Russia's defense doctrine.

Kilo is right when he says that Russia needs to stick with one platform instead of designing new on every decade after building token number of old ones. And 2 decades ago Akula would have been that platform. But this is 2017 and that platform now is Yasen, not Akula.

And I would like to remind everyone that it's pointless to take into account production speeds and spending from before 2010 (Georgia aftermath) because that is now firmly in "coulda, woulda, shoulda" territory.

I think I'm right on the late 00s to today period, it was/is a lost decade for RuN. But I agree the past is the past. Lets come to the present, what does Yasen bring to the table? I agree, sure: "stick to a platform". But I think that choice is fundamentally flawed (see F-35). It's neither an SSGN nor an SSN. And on top of it they plan to induct a new SSN platform, while gradually getting rid of their proper SSGNs (Oscars).  

Wouldn't you agree that overall, they loose badly on the numbers, capability and tonnage of SSGNs? All that as a results of that choice? I say they've made a mistake that will get them less subs in the water and less VLS cells with less SLCMs ready to go.

They had a tremendous weapon (Oscar class w Granit and potential for.. >70 Oniks) throughout the 90s and 00s and they just let it go, and all that for what I suspect is a jobs program, a result of flawed priorities, bad decisions and corruption: the Yasen (32 Oniks). Overpriced, late, less weapons carried and procured at quite low numbers with painfully slow induction rate that amounts to many years for a platform to go online.

In the end this makes war fighting and interventions/ally defense more expensive for Russia.

PS. I am aware a token number of just 3 Oscars are converted for Oniks use (to keep them relevant for another decade I suspect). But the choice for RuN in the future is clear, to get rid of their pure SSGNs and use this Yasen monstrosity as some sort of solution.

Isos wrote:With all those VLS fited in every new ships from corvettes and patrol boats to cruisers and every new sub, they have enough plateform. There are 7 Yassen under construction (7*40=280 VLS)+3 Oscar (72*3=216 VLS)

My point is that once all seven Yasens are built and delivered (say in 2027), those 3 Oscars with their 216 VLS will be starting to retire.

They will end up with 7 boats of pretty much the same capability as those 3 upgraded Oscars (and much less if all current Oscars are considered). Basically instead of setting a baseline and procuring 7 "pure breed" SSGNs with say 72 VLS each (like them Oscars) they procured a hybrid compromise, of "light SSGNs" with half the capability and dare I say similar pricing to the Oscars.

Am I the only one seeing the absurdity in this?

Oscar is old design, I don't think even with proper upgrades its noise level will improve that much. While Yaseen is the most noise less Russian sub so far. 216 VLS is cool, but only 3 platforms means just 3 launch positions. If I just want a launch bed for barraging Kalibrs against an inferior enemy then why not use old Deltas or that one active Typhoon? They have big tubes, we can put UKSK their somehow, like US did with their Trident launchers in some subs.

And Yaseen is a multi-role sub, not dedicated stuff. RuN doctrine is different than SovietN. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of the reduction of sub numbers and have well planned what their tactics will be. Yaseen is combination of Akula and Oscar. Less VLS yes but more effective and efficient. RuN want to def their water, not to go on toe to toe with NATO like cold war days and they're gonna have a bunch of SSKs to assist, which are even deadlier in coastal waters than nuke subs. Not to mention they can fire Kalibrs as well. So the plan seems very well with the economic restraints they have. It doesn't matter what they could in 00s. Matter is what they can do now.

Also by time 7 Yaseen will go on service and Oscars will be ready for retire, thats the time while the 5th gen (Husky I suppose) sub will come into light as well. Oscars can go off duty with its full pride!

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Regardless, all the same effect. If they decided not to bother with the Yassen, then they would have built newer Akulas probably at a fraction of the cost and much better adoption pace.

That would have been better for them. More Oscars, Akulas and even Deltas. Refine them, sure. Go for something completely new? No. Well they did that and now they have a tiny fleet of new boomers and a collection of obsolete Soviet-era dinosaurs that require unreasonable amount of crew and maintenance.

And yeah, the single active Typhoon (merely an experimental test-bed, not active in patrols/deterrent), makes very nice videos across the Jutland.

The Akula is very expensive as well.

The oscars are more expensive than the yassen.
Way more.

Based on what? I never seen any official price tag in regards to the Oscar's so where you getting this notion? show me what the price tag for the Oscar is.

akula cost an average of 1.5 Billion dollars each.

Yasen's M classes are like 3 Bill per date.

Yes Russia can afford such subs because it's not ordering them all at once each purchase it basically a year spread apart when the budget resets it's self. So since 2013 every year when they ordered one Yasen when the budget refreshes.

These claims Russia cannot afford multiple yasen's...is honestly amusing coming from a pro-russian military fourm.

Oscar diameter : 18.5 m eter , Yassen: 15 meter, seawolf: 12 meter , Virginia : 10 meter.

Based on the above , the raw propulsion power (considering that all submarine should have similar maximum speed) is 50% more for oscar than yassen, and 2.25 times more for yassen than virginia.


And it is just the propulsion, the actual mass is close to twice as much, and the cost correlated with the mass.

We know that the oscar was capable to deep to 1 km, and the yassen can do the same.

And the pressure vessel thickness linearly increase with the diameter of the vessel.

So, the oscar is more expensive than the yassen at lest by 50%, but probably by 100%.

Singular_Transform wrote:So, the oscar is more expensive than the yassen at lest by 50%, but probably by 100%.

And yet it can carry 72 Oniks vs 32 of the Yasen. So pound to pound you get markedly more firepower with a single Oscar, since the plan is for Yasen to eventually replace all Oscars. And before you mention torpedo tubes, Oscars were never meant to be SSNs. That was the job for Akula (same number of tubes as the Yasen, the latter has indeed a heavier mix).

Also economies of scale dictate that more Oscars built throughout the 00s and 10s would be much cheaper -per unit- than the single Yasen operational now. Or the upcoming second next year.

In short, worst of both worlds.

T-47 wrote:Oscar is old design, I don't think even with proper upgrades its noise level will improve that much.

Does launching a volley of 100 SLCMs towards an ally in peril from terrorists require to engage say more than 1 (out of 7) of Russia's SSGNs? Cause this is what would happen with the induction of all Yasens (2-3 will be needed and won't be available). And the answer is: No. A single, up to date Oscar II would suffice in 2017, even in 2030.

T-47 wrote:While Yaseen is the most noise less Russian sub so far. 216 VLS is cool, but only 3 platforms means just 3 launch positions. If I just want a launch bed for barraging Kalibrs against an inferior enemy then why not use old Deltas or that one active Typhoon? They have big tubes, we can put UKSK their somehow, like US did with their Trident launchers in some subs.

This is like the western "stealth" illusion, by now the noise capabilities of Yasen (late 90s tech) is already obsolete. And still only one of them is active.  

T-47 wrote:And Yaseen is a multi-role sub, not dedicated stuff. RuN doctrine is different than SovietN. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of the reduction of sub numbers and have well planned what their tactics will be. Yaseen is combination of Akula and Oscar. Less VLS yes but more effective and efficient. RuN want to def their water, not to go on toe to toe with NATO like cold war days and they're gonna have a bunch of SSKs to assist, which are even deadlier in coastal waters than nuke subs. Not to mention they can fire Kalibrs as well. So the plan seems very well with the economic restraints they have. It doesn't matter what they could in 00s. Matter is what they can do now.

Also by time 7 Yaseen will go on service and Oscars will be ready for retire, thats the time while the 5th gen (Husky I suppose) sub will come into light as well. Oscars can go off duty with its full pride!

I don't think that doctrine will serve them well. It sounds like an awful waste of money, since both Yasen and Oscar require the same amount of crew (how they managed that is a big question mark).

For me RuN's decision to drop the Oscar for the Yasen represent a reduction in capability, just because the higher-ups were convinced (?) to ask for a hybrid with potentially less than half the VLS cells.

KiloGolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:........

I think I'm right on the late 00s to today period, it was/is a lost decade for RuN. But I agree the past is the past. Lets come to the present, what does Yasen bring to the table? I agree, sure: "stick to a platform". But I think that choice is fundamentally flawed (see F-35). It's neither an SSGN nor an SSN. And on top of it they plan to induct a new SSN platform, while gradually getting rid of their proper SSGNs (Oscars).  

Wouldn't you agree that overall, they loose badly on the numbers, capability and tonnage of SSGNs? All that as a results of that choice? I say they've made a mistake that will get them less subs in the water and less VLS cells with less SLCMs ready to go.

They had a tremendous weapon (Oscar class w Granit and potential for.. >70 Oniks) throughout the 90s and 00s and they just let it go, and all that for what I suspect is a jobs program, a result of flawed priorities, bad decisions and corruption: the Yasen (32 Oniks). Overpriced, late, less weapons carried and procured at quite low numbers with painfully slow induction rate that amounts to many years for a platform to go online.

In the end this makes war fighting and interventions/ally defense more expensive for Russia.

PS. I am aware a token number of just 3 Oscars are converted for Oniks use (to keep them relevant for another decade I suspect). But the choice for RuN in the future is clear, to get rid of their pure SSGNs and use this Yasen monstrosity as some sort of solution.

We don't know exactly how many Oscars will be converted overall. So far official number is 3. Doesn't mean it will stay that way. And if the do stick with just 3 then it's probably because money is redirected towards new hulls.

Oscars are great and they should keep them as long as they can but even though Yasen has half the missile load there will be more of them available. Distributed lethality. It wasn't planned mind you and it was accidental side effect but still positive result. Relying on 7 (at least ) Yasens is better than on 3 Oscars. One sub at least is almost always under maintenance.

As for their plan for inducting new SSN (Husky) that is still just a theory. They will definitely not be introduced in parallel with Yasen. Once they do come along they will be replacement.

You are being bit harsh Yasen. They without a doubt cost a pretty penny but they also deliver results. Especially should their numbers reach double digits by some luck.

Analysis - Russian Status-6 aka KANYON nuclear deterrence and Pr 09851 submarine: http://www.hisutton.com/Analysis%20-%20Russian%20Status-6%20aka%20KANYON%20nuclear%20deterrence%20and%20Pr%2009851%20submarine.html
http://www.hisutton.com/Spy%20Subs%20-Project%2009852%20Belgorod.html
Any news on AIP on their SSKs? http://www.hisutton.com/World%20survey%20of%20AIP%20submarines.html
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-russias-lethal-new-kalina-class-submarine-15544
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2014/04/russian-conventional-submarine.html

Rubin is developing an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system which could be available for retrofit to the other versions. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/

Will that be feasible?

Yeah. They been planning it for a while.

PapaDragon wrote:Relying on 7 (at least ) Yasens is better than on 3 Oscars. One sub at least is almost always under maintenance.

As for their plan for inducting new SSN (Husky) that is still just a theory. They will definitely not be introduced in parallel with Yasen. Once they do come along they will be replacement.

You are being bit harsh Yasen. They without a doubt cost a pretty penny but they also deliver results. Especially should their numbers reach double digits by some luck.

But right now there are far more Oscars out there ( 8 ). Their current capability/potential is huge. The prospect of 7 Yasens replacing them all by, say.. 2030 seems mediocre. I know it is what is, but for me its a downgrade. Now if they end up with a 10 or 12 Yasens it would make total sense.

So Virginias and especially Seawolfs must be "obsolete" as well? Also, aren't Yasen-Ms quiter than the original? More like 7 Yasens by 2023-25, easily 10 by 2030. And indeed, it's entirely possible that they'll end up with 12 by the early 2030s + Husky-class.

Kimppis wrote:So Virginias and especially Seawolfs must be "obsolete" as well? Also, aren't Yasen-Ms quiter than the original? More like 7 Yasens by 2023-25, easily 10 by 2030. And indeed, it's entirely possible that they'll end up with 12 by the early 2030s + Husky-class.

If you put all your bets on their "silence", sure. But I disagree that this is the decisive factor for an SSGN. If by 2030 the number is a good dozen or so, then there is no issue of capability loss.

KiloGolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Relying on 7 (at least ) Yasens is better than on 3 Oscars. One sub at least is almost always under maintenance.

As for their plan for inducting new SSN (Husky) that is still just a theory. They will definitely not be introduced in parallel with Yasen. Once they do come along they will be replacement.

You are being bit harsh Yasen. They without a doubt cost a pretty penny but they also deliver results. Especially should their numbers reach double digits by some luck.

But right now there are far more Oscars out there ( 8 ). Their current capability/potential is huge. The prospect of 7 Yasens replacing them all by, say.. 2030 seems mediocre. I know it is what is, but for me its a downgrade. Now if they end up with a 10 or 12 Yasens it would make total sense.

I am not so sure that all Oscars will be out of service that soon, they are pretty resilient. Just look at Delta-class, it's still rolling.

And there are already 7 Yasens ordered with possibility of more. We just don't know enough currently.

You are right about it possibly ending up as being downgrade but it would not be drastic one even in worse case scenario. New missiles should also factor into this and alleviate problems.

You compared situation with Yasens with F-35 and you are right from financial standpoint, both are expensive and technically problematic.

But unlike F-35 which cost a lot and delivers very poor results for that money​, Yasen costs a lot but delivers excellent results. Even USN thinks so.

At least there is a pretty big silver lining to all this. Let's just hope they manage to squeeze out that elusive double digit number of ships.

PapaDragon wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Relying on 7 (at least ) Yasens is better than on 3 Oscars. One sub at least is almost always under maintenance.

As for their plan for inducting new SSN (Husky) that is still just a theory. They will definitely not be introduced in parallel with Yasen. Once they do come along they will be replacement.

You are being bit harsh Yasen. They without a doubt cost a pretty penny but they also deliver results. Especially should their numbers reach double digits by some luck.

But right now there are far more Oscars out there ( 8 ). Their current capability/potential is huge. The prospect of 7 Yasens replacing them all by, say.. 2030 seems mediocre. I know it is what is, but for me its a downgrade. Now if they end up with a 10 or 12 Yasens it would make total sense.

I am not so sure that all Oscars will be out of service that soon, they are pretty resilient. Just look at Delta-class, it's still rolling.

And there are already 7 Yasens ordered with possibility of more. We just don't know enough currently.

You are right about it possibly ending up as being downgrade but it would not be drastic one even in worse case scenario. New missiles should also factor into this and alleviate problems.

You compared situation with Yasens with F-35 and you are right from financial standpoint, both are expensive and technically problematic.

But unlike F-35 which cost a lot and delivers very poor results for that money​, Yasen costs a lot but delivers excellent results. Even USN thinks so.

At least there is a pretty big silver lining to all this. Let's just hope they manage to squeeze out that elusive double digit number of ships.

Don't get me wrong, Yasen is a Gucci as it gets. I'm just skeptical on what exactly have they planned for the future. Time will tell I guess.



Watching this, I wanna ask, what role will this sub fulfill in the RuN's BS fleet? Sub crew Training?
Also has anyone seen the Slavutich operating under RuN recently? It can be a pretty capable ship if upgraded appropriately.

Isos wrote:It is said that Husky will come in two different versions. One SSN and one SSGN. They will probably use same the plateform, like Armata for ground forces. But untill there is an official statement, we can't really talk about it.

Yasen is not a good SSGN because it doesn't have enough missiles. It's better to keep them for anti ship role and carrier destroyers. It's better to build a SSGN Borei which is as silent if not more than Yasen, cheaper and their construction is already pretty fast and nice done by shipyards. The role of the SSGN is to lunch lot of missiles in order to destroy as much targets as possible the first days behind the front, like munition stors, HQ, strategic infrastructures ... So it needs tramandous amount of missiles.

Good first point, I didn't know they planned an SSGN Husky, and I'm in total agreement on the second one. Yasen is a niche class and a better SSN than the Akula.

Isos wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:
Good first point, I didn't know they planned an SSGN Husky, and I'm in total agreement on the second one. Yasen is a niche class and a better SSN than the Akula.

That's just speculation, I've never seen official statement. But it is not a bad idea.

Honestly Borei-SSGN would be most awesome thing ever. Just imagine that monster stuffed full of Kalibrs...

As for Yasens, they will definitely go with full anti-ship setup. Makes perfect sense. Leave land targets to rest of the crowd.

Isos wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

Isos wrote:With all those VLS fited in every new ships from corvettes and patrol boats to cruisers and every new sub, they have enough plateform. There are 7 Yassen under construction (7*40=280 VLS)+3 Oscar (72*3=216 VLS)

My point is that once all seven Yasens are built and delivered (say in 2027), those 3 Oscars with their 216 VLS will be starting to retire.

They will end up with 7 boats of pretty much the same capability as those 3 upgraded Oscars (and much less if all current Oscars are considered). Basically instead of setting a baseline and procuring 7 "pure breed" SSGNs with say 72 VLS each (like them Oscars) they procured a hybrid compromise, of "light SSGNs" with half the capability and dare I say similar pricing to the Oscars.

Am I the only one seeing the absurdity in this?

Not really. They are already building all 7 Yasens, so in 5-7 years they will be ready. Oscars haven't started their modernisation, they will come probably in service in the same time as Yasens in 5 years. Their modernization will give them another 10 years or more of service. So they will have those 7 Yasens and those 3 Oscars sailing together for a long time.

It is said that Husky will come in two different versions. One SSN and one SSGN. They will probably use same the plateform, like Armata for ground forces. But untill there is an official statement, we can't really talk about it.

Yasen is not a good SSGN because it doesn't have enough missiles. Keep them for anti ship role and carrier killers.

It's better to build a SSGN Borei which is as silent if not more than Yasen, cheaper and their construction is already pretty fast and nice done by shipyards. The role of the SSGN is to lunch lot of missiles in order to destroy as much targets as possible the first days behind the front, like munition stors, HQ, strategic infrastructures ... So it needs tramandous amount of missiles.

Delta's and Typhoons are dead ships for RuN. They would likely prefere new SSGN Borei than upgrading soviet ships with VLS. Cost would't be that much different.

This is a silly statement.

YasenM's have 40 missiles yes that is half of the Oscar but Yasen's aren't designed solo to hunt Carrier Strike groups they are designed to first and foremost find and sink other Attack submarines.

I mean you can try and have the Oscar do this but it will get destroyed.

So no Yasen is not a"failure" it's a very very good submarine and the US Navy is very impressed by it.

you seem to forget Russia is trying to field hypersonic missiles....and you don't need 80 hypersonic missiles Zircon went mach 8 last I checked? you realize no standard defense can intercept a missile at that speed?. Lasers could sure but it's doubtful they could destroy 40 missiles fast enough.

so yes a Yasen with 40 Zircons is more than good enough to replace an Oscar.

Then honestly you just made no sense.

Oscar where never made to attack land targets they "could" but that was never their purpose. The job of those subs was to hunt ships.

so your saying the Yasen is a failure....when it was never designed to be a straight up land attack submarine like Ohio was (the four SSGN ohio's we have)

Sorry but no, Yasen was designed has a submarine killer and to launch cruise missiles at ships, It's land attack ability was the least concern when designing it. Yes it can launch cruise missiles at land targets if it wants however like I said it was never designed to do that has the main mission.

so save that logic because that argument is absurd.