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    Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:33 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:I thought I would repost one of my earlier post on this subject.

    On 05/06/14 Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Yes, as I thought from the start.

    It is a small ship, Redut is a pretty potent system on a corvette.

    I stand corrected. I was one of the people that thought there would be 48 of the 9M96/9M96D class missiles in the 12 launcher wells.

    My current assessment is as follows.

    Having twelve of such highly potent missiles in this warship qualitatively represents a very high level of capability but also a low quantity of missiles. Also this arrangement makes inefficient use of the deck area; it is worth noting all of the empty, unused space in each well.

    It is possible to fit, may be, 9 X 9M100 class missiles in each well, but that would equate to a case diametrically opposite to the above situation. A combination of 9M96-class and 9M100-class would still not address a requirement for a moderately large number of moderately capable missiles.

    Based on the above considerations, I think these ships will additionally use a class of moderate-size radar guided missile (similar to 9M338 or 9M339 class) where four of each can fit in each well.

    My calculations show that the 9M338-class and the 9M339-class of missiles have a fuselage diameter of about 195 mm; TLC diameter is 240 mm. 9M96/9M96D missiles, on the other hand, have fuselage diameters of 240 mm.

    Also to consider is, for example, Agat's "9B-1103M-150" Ka band active seeker which is designed for missiles with fuselage diameters of 150 mm.

    In conclusion, I think the load-out would include a few larger missiles, a few smaller missiles, and many medium-size ones.

    Guys,

    I had to do a major edit after I initially posted this; I can now make out the writings on the TLCs.

    The following image apparently shows the 9M100 missiles, packed 4 per each well in, let's say, the proekt 20381's Redut launcher.

    It had been claimed that the 9M100 family missiles had a body diameter of 125 mm. The TLCs here seem to be much larger.

    Please also see my assessment above.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:43 am

    They look way too big... too long... those tubes could hold R-77s let alone 9M100s.

    My impression is that the 9M100 is a short range only missile so we are talking about a couple of metres long at most... sort of like an R-60 without all the flight control surfaces in the 50-60kg weight class.


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:20 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:I thought I would repost one of my earlier post on this subject.

    On 05/06/14 Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Yes, as I thought from the start.

    It is a small ship, Redut is a pretty potent system on a corvette.

    I stand corrected. I was one of the people that thought there would be 48 of the 9M96/9M96D class missiles in the 12 launcher wells.

    My current assessment is as follows.

    Having twelve of such highly potent missiles in this warship qualitatively represents a very high level of capability but also a low quantity of missiles. Also this arrangement makes inefficient use of the deck area; it is worth noting all of the empty, unused space in each well.

    It is possible to fit, may be, 9 X 9M100 class missiles in each well, but that would equate to a case diametrically opposite to the above situation. A combination of 9M96-class and 9M100-class would still not address a requirement for a moderately large number of moderately capable missiles.

    Based on the above considerations, I think these ships will additionally use a class of moderate-size radar guided missile (similar to 9M338 or 9M339 class) where four of each can fit in each well.

    My calculations show that the 9M338-class and the 9M339-class of missiles have a fuselage diameter of about 195 mm; TLC diameter is 240 mm. 9M96/9M96D missiles, on the other hand, have fuselage diameters of 240 mm.

    Also to consider is, for example, Agat's "9B-1103M-150" Ka band active seeker which is designed for missiles with fuselage diameters of 150 mm.

    In conclusion, I think the load-out would include a few larger missiles, a few smaller missiles, and many medium-size ones.

    Guys,

    I had to do a major edit after I initially posted this; I can now make out the writings on the TLCs.

    The following image apparently shows the 9M100 missiles, packed 4 per each well in, let's say, the proekt 20381's Redut launcher.

    It had been claimed that the 9M100 family missiles had a body diameter of 125 mm. The TLCs here seem to be much larger.

    Please also see my assessment above.


    Considering that the writing on the lid of the TLCs say "9M100", I would make the following conjectures.

    1- "9M100" is not the circa 125 mm diameter missile. A 125 mm diameter missile is not really that suitable for an active radar homing head after all. Of course, what we see here can be a different 9M100.

    2- These missiles, allegedly 9M100s, have a diameter of around 200 mm, just like the 9M338 and 9M339 family.

    3- Each TLC shown would have a diameter of around 240 mm, just like that of the 9M338 and 9M339 family.

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    GarryB

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    I hate to do this (TR1 will kill me), but I'd like to bring up the topic of 4 9M96 missiles per Redut cell once again.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:11 am

    9M100 is supposed to be Morfei... a short range IIR seeking missile with anti missile capabilites that is supposed to be used by all branches of the Russian military... the Air Force will use them as a small short range AAM like the R-60MK for self defence, the Army will use them for short range protection from PGMs, while the Navy will use them as a Sea RAM type weapon with a lock on after launch IIR seeker.

    The main benefit is that they can be launched without seeing their target which means vertical launch on land and at sea, but also launch from inside weapon bays of aircraft. Currently the AIM-X needs to be extended out of the weapon bay to acquire the target before launch... the Morfei is supposed to be launched from the weapon bay and then find its target using its seeker view and a datalink. There are obvious advantages for Morfei as it reduces the launch time and non stealthy exposure.

    A while back they revealed ARH seekers for smaller missiles... Kopp on Auspower speculated that it might be for an ARH version of R-73 or even an OSA/TOR missile upgrade to deal with swarm attacks.

    they have since added AESA seekers:



    That could be fitted to fairly small missiles too.

    I suspect a lot of missiles might start appearing with ARH AESA seeker and IIR seeker options... with the ultimate being a combined ARH/IIR seeker option.


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    sepheronx

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:09 pm

    As a note, both Gorshkov and steregushi both use Redute and thus currently have the same issues. Engine issue is resolved? Which engines?

    Anyway, they need to build more of these.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:31 pm

    sepheronx wrote:As a note, both Gorshkov and steregushi both use Redute and thus currently have the same issues. Engine issue is resolved? Which engines?

    Anyway, they need to build more of these.

    Gorshkov's use new missiles for Redut and those new missiles have issues. Standard Redut missiles used in other ships have no problems.

    As for engines, there are news about it several posts earlier on this page.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:01 pm

    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed. Which ones is Steregushi using?

    Good to know engine solution has been worked out.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:12 pm

    sepheronx wrote:The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.  Which ones is Steregushi using?

    Good to know engine solution has been worked out.

    No, it's something to do with one particular type of missiles (newest ones for Gorshkovs) Others work no problem.
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    hoom

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:15 pm

    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.
    This is the big confusion for me too dunno

    Standard Redut missiles used in other ships have no problems.
    The standard Redut missiles are 2 variants of 9m96 40km & 120km plus 9m100 15km.
    Gorshkov uses the same missiles as far as everything I've seen. (thats the point of a standardised VLS system)
    Though maybe they (sensibly) never even considered trying the 120km version on 20380 -> it would be 'new' for Gorshkov.

    I thought that the 9m96 & 9m100 had been tested & gone into service as an integral part of S-400. (haven't actually seen any of those quad-packs showing on pics of actual service vehicles though)
    I'd also got the impression they'd at least tested the S-350 which is the land analogue of Poliment-Redut?

    20380 is said to have had issues with its Redut system because the Furke radar isn't strong enough (its a navalised version of the Pantsir radar), but it did eventually pass tests allowing them into service.
    But when Gorshkov with much more powerful radar has a similar issue of failed intercepts it kinda points to the missiles.

    I ran into an older (& google translated) article which suggested 20380 only actually passed with a ~15km range interception using 9m100 guided by the Puma radar which would tend to point to the 9m96 missiles again.
    Except 9m100 is an IR missile that probably doesn't require guidance & I've not seen any suggestion that the Puma gun firecontrol radar is capable of working with AA missiles so the credibility is low in my opinion scratch

    I also read an article talking about issues with Shtil-1 on the first Talwars: apparently they had a similar issue of missile guidance failing, found the Puma was actually causing interference on the frequency used by the missile guidance, missile guys spent a bunch of time reworking things with insufficient improvement then eventually a senior radar troubleshooter guy sent over to India did something really basic like tweak the frequency of the Puma & quickly fixed it -> 2nd order from India.
    Not sure how credible that is either.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:51 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.
    This is the big confusion for me too dunno
    ........................

    Guy, only one type suffered failures, the new 9M96D/DM. Problem is compatibility with Poliment radar that needs to provide mid-course guidance. That is where Gorshkov delay comes from. They could load standard missiles and those ships would be ready now.  

    All standard Redut missiles work fine both on Russian Navy ships and on export vessels (eg. Talwar-class for India)
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:56 pm

    I think talwar used shtil-1
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    hoom

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

    Shtil-1 has a different VLS & uses Front-dome for guidance, its a completely different system than Redut.
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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

    Bottom line is that missiles work otherwise RU navy would have had useless missiles for past two decades.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:26 pm

    Papa, read this:
    https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2016/08/18/front_rabot/

    It seems to state Palmas antey has issues with everything, but I am assuming its bullshit. 9m96 being bad performer, 40n6 not in service, etc. But it leads me to believe being garbage journalism cause 9m96 was in service for years and 40n6 was tested years ago as well.

    It talks about issue with redut and shtil
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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:57 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Papa, read this:
    https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2016/08/18/front_rabot/

    It seems to state Palmas antey has issues with everything, but I am assuming its bullshit. 9m96 being bad performer, 40n6 not in service, etc. But it leads me to believe being garbage journalism cause 9m96 was in service for years and 40n6 was tested years ago as well.

    It talks about issue with redut and shtil

    Well it's either one of two things:

    1) Standard missiles work but new ones still have issues.

    2) Entire Redut platform is a failure because nothing works.

    In first case we are talking about usual journalistic bullsh*t.

    In second case entire Russian navy post USSR is one big useless white elephant that can be defeated and exterminated by any country that has access to jet powered combat aircraft.
    And that this entire class of corvettes should have never been built in the first place (I do agree with this bolded part to significant degree) .
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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:39 am

    After doing a bit of reading and even reading nationalreview (blah...) it turns out that the issue isn't all the missiles, but just 1 missile type - 9M96 missile. Essentially it is having trouble with long range missiles and all other ones (less than 150km range) are working as intended so they blame the Fakel plant which makes the missile, hence why they never mentioned the radar but the missile itself. Makes sense. So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.
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    hoom

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:49 am

    Well if a system thats supposed to use 3 missiles 9m100 15km, 9m96 40km & 9m96M 120km has issues with the 2nd two then that system is fundamentally borked.
    But I don't understand why this has suddenly come out when the missiles are supposed to already be in service on at least a couple of systems.
    Possibly 20380 wasn't ever really intended to be able to properly use 9m96 but they gave it a whirl anyway hoping for something like 30km effective?
    With just 9m100 (32* 15km missiles) it would still have a pretty strong AA ability for the size of the ship, though not really much better than the first of class with Kashtan Neutral

    I'm still not convinced its really the missiles.
    While they are a common component it seems like a lost-in-translation/over-simplified/passing responsibility type of explanation.
    My alternative personal opinion: Furke just lacks power for the range needed by those missiles (& 20385 will be fine assuming radar/software works properly), Poliment might have immature software/hardware issues, S-350 is vaporware because limited engineering ability/funding has been focused on other stuff (S-400, Shtil-1, BukM3, TorM2, S-2500 etc).

    I hope its something like they just need to update some software/tweak frequencies & everything will be fine.
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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:00 am

    Steregushy corvette was meant to use short range 9M96 radar. Problem is, that Steregushi doesn't have any target engagement radar, but only standard search radar Furke. Problem with Furke is not in the range or power as 9M96 missiles are ARH, but in the size of target cell, which the radar could provide to missile inertial guidance. If the cell is to big, than missile have to search in bigger space for target and could happened, that it could not find it with its own radar in so short period of time, because the radar in the missile is not that big.
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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:29 am

    Except 9m100 is an IR missile that probably doesn't require guidance & I've not seen any suggestion that the Puma gun firecontrol radar is capable of working with AA missiles so the credibility is low in my opinion

    9M100 is indeed an IR guided missile, but it has a lock on after launch capability which means it can be fired blind and directed towards the target and get a lock on the target in flight after launch... this requires it to have an idea of where the target is via datalink so it knows after launch where to look for its target and what target it is going for... the datalink might be two way allowing the operator to select the target based on what the missile can see as it is flying.

    This all means the missile can be carried in an internal weapons bay on an aircraft or vertical launch tube on a ship or land vehicle and can be launched/ejected rapidly and be flown in the direction of the incoming target before having to detect and lock on to that target...for mass attacks or very fast reactions this is ideal... and with some sophistication it can be loaded with a 3D IR image target library and identify targets itself...

    So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

    That would be excellent news if it can be confirmed as the 9M100 will be an important missile for the Russian Navy, Army, and Air Force.... and offering huge potential for a range of uses... an IIR seeker fitted to existing missiles like R-27E and R-77 and of course R-37M would make very potent air to air weapons... Imagine an Su-35 flying along scanning with its long wave wing mounted L band radars and detecting a radar return where the powerful X band radar in its nose shows nothing... the target is 200km distant and with no solid lock there is no point in launching a radar guided missile so firing an R-37M with an IIR seeker that can actively look for targets from launch all the way to 300km away as it travels without emitting radar signals of its own... it might detect a range of threats on the way but just send back an IIR image to the launch aircraft... when it gets to the location of the return signal it can look for anything resembling an F-22 or F-35 and if it finds one attack it on its own... those stealth targets wont be actively scanning the sky looking for incoming small threats so they likely wont even know what hit them...


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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:41 am

    sepheronx wrote:After doing a bit of reading and even reading nationalreview (blah...) it turns out that the issue isn't all the missiles, but just 1 missile type - 9M96 missile.  Essentially it is having trouble with long range missiles and all other ones (less than 150km range) are working as intended so they blame the Fakel plant which makes the missile, hence why they never mentioned the radar but the missile itself.  Makes sense.  So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

    This is what I have been saying all along. Only one latest type of missile has problems.

    hoom wrote:.........
    Possibly 20380 wasn't ever really intended to be able to properly use 9m96 but they gave it a whirl anyway hoping for something like 30km effective?
    ...........

    20380 was not supposed to use this type nor it ever will. Gorshkov frigate will, a completely different class of vessels.

    20380 never had any problems whatsoever with AA systems. Why are people even talking about this? It is Gorshkov frigate that has problems with 9M96 missile, not 20380 corvette which does not use it to begin with.

    Can we finally stop discussing 9M96 missile and 20380 corvette already? They have no connection nor relation with one another.

    I really dislike 20380 corvettes but their AA systems work fine, even I admit that.
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    hoom

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    Redut sam system

    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:56 am

    This seems to be from 2013 but has relevant details
    http://bastion-opk.ru/poliment-redut/ (google translate)
    Air defense missile system 3K96 "POLIMENT-redoubt" ( "redoubt") The development of modern air defense systems for the ships of the Russian Navy "Poliment-Redoute" is the NGO "Almaz-Antey".
    SEC "Altair", being a parent in GSKB Concern PVO "Almaz Antey "on the complexes and sea-based systems, in 2012, continued the work begun in the structure of" MNIIRE "Altair".
    First of all, the ROC and the participation in the supply of production samples on the main themes NTC - ed. 3K96 and SAM "Calm 1".
    In the onshore SAM 50R6 "Vityaz" uses tezhe missiles that SAM "Redoubt" ( "Poliment-Redoute"), this anti-aircraft missiles 9M96 and 9M100.
    In 2011, products 9M96 and 9M100 shot S-400 air defense system "Redoubt".
    In both cases, the target acquisition homing (GOS) was broke, and the target were not affected.
    As noted in 2011, the development of modern air defense systems for the ships of the Russian Navy "Poliment-Redoubt" was behind schedule.
    The lag was due to the shortage of engineers in the design bureau of the group. Instead of a complex maritime best design minds occupied land.
    This situation has led to a delay in the construction of new Russian frigate project 22350.
    The main difficulties arose in the establishment of the radar "Poliment" station with a phased antenna array (PAA) and the Marine version 9M96 missiles, which should become the main weapon SAM "Redoubt".
    Together, these two systems constitute complex defense "Poliment-Redoute."
    All 2012 Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" arguments homing anti-aircraft missiles 9M96 "to mind" and held their own ground tests.
    In October 2012 the Department of Defense suffered indefinitely test ship antiaircraft missile system (SAM) "Redoubt" which must arm a new generation of ships.
    In 2012, shot three times - twice with a corvette of the Baltic Fleet "savvy" 20380 to the sea, and once with a ground installation.
    All launches were not successful, in August 2012 the launch took place in normal mode, but the homing head is unable to acquire a target, and the missile self-destructed.
    According to the test results, the 1st Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defence presented the conclusion complex underfulfilled needs to eliminate a plurality of drawbacks.
    Naval experts particularly unhappy rocket under the symbol 9M96M and radar "Furke-2." In SAM "Redoubt" do not have a radar target detection.
    This problem is solved "Furke" general ship radar detection at the time of the test is not sufficiently effective.
    Theme 3K96 in 2012, made ​​significant amount of work that allows you to speak with confidence about the end of the test in 2013, ed. 3K96-3 on ships 20380 and putting samples of the products of the Navy, as well as carrying out preliminary bench tests, the supply of sample Vol. 3K96-2 on the lead ship of the project 22350, its assembly and testing.
    At the head of the project 22350 frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" test "Reduta" will begin no earlier than 2014, upon the ship's readiness.
    In this set of 9M96 missiles and 9M100 9M96D ready for testing. On the frigates of Project 22350 will be installed 4 module SAM "Poliment-Redoute" to 8 cells in each (a total of 32 cells for SAM).
    During the briefing, which took place in the framework of the MAKS-2013, the general director of Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" said that testing of the new SAM system was interrupted in 2012 due to a fire in the TFR "savvy" (20380).
    This year the ship after repairs arrived for the resumption of SAM tests. He also said that at the head of the project 22350 frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" test "Reduta" will begin no earlier than 2014, upon the ship's readiness.
    In this set of 9M96 missiles and 9M100 9M96D ready for testing.
    Источник: http://bastion-opk.ru/poliment-redut/ ОВТ «ОРУЖИЕ ОТЕЧЕСТВА» A.V.Karpenko
    According to that 9m96 & 9m100 tests with S-400 in 2011 failed as well as the later tests with 20380 & 22350.
    That certainly seems to point to missile side issues.

    Apparently the CEO of Almaz-Antey has been fired/forced to resign in the last few days.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Poliment-Redut Naval Air Defense System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:37 pm

    Poliment-Redut system has passed some harsh tests  thumbsup

    It seems that we have the answer to the question whether 9M96 is ok or not Laughing  Laughing

    "Almaz-Antey" spent shooting the newest ship SAM "Poliment-Redoute"

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    Poliment-Redut Naval SAM

    Post  Ned86 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:38 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    It seems that we have the answer to the question whether 9M96 is ok or not Laughing  Laughing
    According to this article, on 25 August one of Baltic fleet Project 20380 corvette successfully intercept cruise missile in the Baltic sea using Redut SAM system.
    It seems that this system is working well, at least regarding recent reports as well as official reports.
    rusnavy.com

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