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    Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:33 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    medo wrote:Buyan in Black sea fleet is not strange choice. It is sea-river class corvette and could patrol deep inside Don river and could sail into Caspian sea and Caspian Buyans could sail in Black sea. It is perfect to patrol in Black sea and in Caspian sea and to sail in big Don and Volga rivers. 22160 is open ocean patrol sea and is perect for Black sea and Batic fleets. When Black sea fleet Will have 22160 ships, than they will not need to send Buyans to Mediterranean sea as they Will have enough Grigorovich frigates and 22160 patrol ships to do that job.

    and why 22800 on top? 22160 isnt similar class and characteristics?

    22160 is patrol vessel with added optional cruise missile functionality, not a real warship. It is supposed to hunt pirates, show flag, visit other ports on friendly tours instead of more useful ships and in case of war to perform same role as Buyans/Karakurts.

    They are more expensive and take longer to build than those ships as well.

    And anti-piracy is also reason they are stationed in Black Sea. It is closest to Somalia.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:56 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:and why 22800 on top? 22160 isnt similar class and characteristics?

    22160 is patrol vessel with added optional cruise missile functionality, not a real warship. It is supposed to hunt pirates, show flag, visit other ports on friendly tours instead of more useful ships and in case of war to perform same role as Buyans/Karakurts.


    So what differentiates Buyan without Kalibs (a warship) and 22160? I cannot see much difference. So why not to build long series 22160 with avionics/radars pantsir and pakets on top of Kalibrs?


    PapaDragon wrote:
    They are more expensive and take longer to build than those ships as well.

    And anti-piracy is also reason they are stationed in Black Sea. It is closest to Somalia.

    Costs could eventually explain but but unification is not less important for logistics. Do you have periods of shipbuilding and costs of both classes somewhere?


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:41 am

    Once the 6 ships for the BSF are completed, the shipyard is expecting further orders of the class for a slightly modified version more suitable for colder seas (Baltic for example). That's what the company director mentioned a while ago.

    Main facts to keep in mind about this class of patrol ships
    -These 22160 ships have range (6000 nm) and endurance of larger frigates that are twice their size.
    -Their modular design enables to carry mission suitable armament.
    -They are going to be the most low-observable (stealthy) ships in the Ru Navy.
    -They will have low operational cost and carry a modest sized crew.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:38 am


    Are these ships also affected by Ukrainian engine clusterf**k?
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:14 am

    Once the 6 ships for the BSF are completed, the shipyard is expecting further orders of the class for a slightly modified version more suitable for colder seas (Baltic for example
    Ah cool Smile

    Are these ships also affected by Ukrainian engine clusterf**k?
    Still haven't found a clear answer but the CoDaD references seem to be newer -> domestic diesels?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Are these ships also affected by Ukrainian engine clusterf**k?

    Not directly. These ships use diesels only.
    However, the Kolomna plant (that makes diesels) now has to supply diesels to many classes of ships (including the Buyans who's diesels came from Germany).

    The fact that the shipyard announced a few days ago that the first ship will be completed by 2017, means that there are no delays (at least for the first unit).
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:34 pm

    Further news on this class:

    The 5th unit will be laid down end of 2016/beginning of 2017.

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160901/1475815092.html
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:27 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:........

    Costs could eventually explain but but unification is not less important for logistics. Do you have periods of shipbuilding and costs of both classes somewhere?


    First Patrol ship was laid down well over a year ago, nearly two. First 22800 (Buyan's successor) several months ago. Both will be coming on line almost at the same time.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:40 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Once the 6 ships for the BSF are completed, the shipyard is expecting further orders of the class for a slightly modified version more suitable for colder seas (Baltic for example). That's what the company director mentioned a while ago.

    Main facts to keep in mind about this class of patrol ships
    -These 22160 ships have range (6000 nm) and endurance of larger frigates that are twice their size.
    -Their modular design enables to carry mission suitable armament.
    -They are going to be the most low-observable (stealthy) ships in the Ru Navy.
    -They will have low operational cost and carry a modest sized crew.

    so blue waters corvettes in short... hope decent aad i asw will be foreseen




    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:........

    Costs could eventually explain but but unification is not less important for logistics. Do you have periods of shipbuilding and costs of both classes somewhere?


    First Patrol ship was laid down well over a year ago, nearly two. First 22800 (Buyan's successor) several months ago. Both will be coming on line almost at the same time.


    well simar ships, possible similar armament but two types. Only difference I see 22800 are not foreseen for North Fleet (buoyancy I guess)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:39 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:


    well simar ships, possible similar armament but two types. Only difference I see 22800 are not foreseen for North Fleet (buoyancy I guess)

    North Fleet is exactly what 22800 were designed for. In fact first 5 ships will be going to North Fleet.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:44 pm

    Source: three patrol ship of project 22160 will be part of the Russian Navy in 2017-2018


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3593412


    Source: the second of three ships of project 22160 can get rocket complex "Caliber"


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3593415



    so now pls show me 3 major different characteristics making need for two types of such ships?


    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    well simar ships, possible similar armament but two types. Only difference I see 22800 are not foreseen for North Fleet (buoyancy I guess)
    North Fleet is exactly what 22800 were designed for. In fact first 5 ships will be going to North Fleet.


    I´ve re-checked and unfortunately you´re right Smile earlier this year in Tv Zvezda was videa about 22800 where they claimed 22800 do not have good buoyancy for northern fleet theater.
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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:20 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.........................


    Source: the second of three ships of project 22160 can get rocket complex "Caliber"


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3593415

    so now pls show me 3  major different characteristics making need for two types of such ships?

    They are same type and there is no difference between two ships. They are saying that second ship will be getting Kalibr containers. Remember, missile launchers on these ships are not integrated into the hull. Missiles are stored in interchangeable shipping containers in the back. Look at the pic.

    They are saying that second ship will be getting those containers. Nothing is stopping them from throwing same containers on first ship as well later on. First one will probably be getting containers with Uran missiles.  


    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    well simar ships, possible similar armament but two types. Only difference I see 22800 are not foreseen for North Fleet (buoyancy I guess)
    North Fleet is exactly what 22800 were designed for. In fact first 5 ships will be going to North Fleet.


    I´ve re-checked  and unfortunately you´re right Smile earlier this year in  Tv Zvezda was videa about 22800 where they claimed 22800 do not have good buoyancy for northern fleet theater.

    Old Tarantul and Nanuchka missile ships routinely operate in North Sea. Karakurts will have better buoyancy than both. I think that somebody on TV did not double check the data.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.........................


    Source: the second of three ships of project 22160 can get rocket complex "Caliber"


    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3593415

    so now pls show me 3  major different characteristics making need for two types of such ships?

    They are same type and there is no difference between two ships. They are saying that second ship will be getting Kalibr containers. Remember, missile launchers on these ships are not integrated into the hull. Missiles are stored in interchangeable shipping containers in the back. Look at the pic.

    They are saying that second ship will be getting those containers. Nothing is stopping them from throwing same containers on first ship as well later on. First one will probably be getting containers with Uran missiles.  



    My bad I was not specific enough but as I am b#tching about 22800 I meant why build 2 types of boats (22160 and 22800) with similar displacement , same number of VLS cells ? i am just trying to understand why double logistics effort?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:50 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:......................

    My bad I was not specific enough but as I am b#tching about 22800 I meant why build 2 types of boats (22160 and 22800) with similar displacement , same number of VLS cells ? i am just trying to understand why double logistics effort?

    They are not really similar. 22160 has 1300-1800 tons and 94 meters while 22800 has 800 tons and 60 meters. That is twice the size.

    And Karakurts are dedicated warships that are built in half the time it takes to build Patrol ship which would be auxiliary vessel in real war.

    Patrol ships have very small crew and operating costs and huge endurance. They are supposed to relieve rest of the fleet from trivial work like lengthy pirate hunting and ''diplomatic'' visits to foreign ports.

    There was time when Peter the Great battlecruiser was sent to hunt pirates off the Somali coast because no other ship with that endurance was available. Can you imagine that insanity?
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:22 am

    You still gonna get killed the same by both but if I was a Somali pirate & I saw PtG I'd be a lot more scared than if I saw a 22160 affraid
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:43 am

    So here's a thing: The model with the containerised Calibr has the helipad forward of the stern where the containers are.

    The model at the recent military show has the helipad right at the stern (is it shorter than the earlier model?)


    Does possibly look like there are still covers there in the drawing & it does have a highlight with missiles (uran?), containers, mini-sub & towed sonar (?) there.

    Where is the Igla launcher? Its supposed to have 1 of the Gibka launchers like on Buyan-M but I haven't been able to identify it in any pics yet.
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    artjomh

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  artjomh on Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:29 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Are these ships also affected by Ukrainian engine clusterf**k?

    Not directly. These ships use diesels only.
    However, the Kolomna plant (that makes diesels) now has to supply diesels to many classes of ships (including the Buyans who's diesels came from Germany).

    The fact that the shipyard announced a few days ago that the first ship will be completed by 2017, means that there are no delays (at least for the first unit).

    No, they (21361s) have Chinese engines.

    631-635 have MTU
    636-639 will have Chinese diesel engines.

    22160 will have Kolomna diesels (16D49)

    Everything else (CODAG, CODAD with MTU, etc.) are just options for export.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:47 am

    Thanks for the clarification Artjomh.

    Where have you been? I look forward to hear more from you on this thread.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:18 pm

    Fifth unit of the class will be laid down during October.

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160922/1477582989.html
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:15 am

    5th now due to be laid down on 25th Nov.
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3806478
    Name will be Виктор Иванович Великий which translates as Victor the Great.
    Apparently not royalty but this guy https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 Hero of the Soviet Union as wharf commander at Nov 1943 Soviet landings at Kerch.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:49 am

    hoom wrote:5th now due to be laid down on 25th Nov.
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3806478
    Name will be Виктор Иванович Великий which translates as Victor the Great.
    Apparently not royalty but this guy https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87 Hero of the Soviet Union as wharf commander at Nov 1943 Soviet landings at Kerch.

    Great news, can't wait to see first one complete, they are lookers definitely.


    Also, thank you hoom for posting something in Naval treads that is not related to Kuznetzov butthurt war, I really appreciate it. thumbsup
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    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:23 am

    Yeah, I wish they'd at least get around to launching the first one so we can get a decent look at it.
    I'd like to think they are doing near full fit-out before launch so that in-service comes shortly after but I'm not hopeful.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:27 am

    If such a vessel is successful and capable, let us hope the mod decides to order more and ha e other shipyards doing work on it. Enough of these shipyards making their own types.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:06 am

    miketheterrible wrote:If such a vessel is successful and capable, let us hope the mod decides to order more and ha e other shipyards doing work on it.  Enough of these shipyards making their own types.

    These are anti piracy/patrol vessels not dedicated warships. Only certain fleets need them, the Northern fleet doesn't require this class of ship. These are suitable for the BSF sure. The mainfleet's will get Karakuts which is more proper for them.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:55 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:If such a vessel is successful and capable, let us hope the mod decides to order more and ha e other shipyards doing work on it.  Enough of these shipyards making their own types.

    These are anti piracy/patrol vessels not dedicated warships. Only certain fleets need them, the Northern fleet doesn't require this class of ship. These are suitable for the BSF sure. The mainfleet's will get Karakutswhich is more proper for them.

    Buyan/Karakurt is exactly the role these ships will have in case of war with added bonus of having full sized AA system.

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