Project 22160 Bykov-class patrol ship

PapaDragon wrote:Guys you are going about this the wrong way.

Weapons on that list is the stuff that comes with basic configuration. That means gun and SAM. All other gear including cruise missiles are optional add ons. There is large space behind main gun, I assume that is reserved for large AA system if one is needed.

This ship is supposed to be anti piracy ship and auxiliary ship but not proper warship. At least that is what I think that ''offshore patrol vessel'' means. I could not find proper definition on line, if someone could provide one I would be grateful...

sepheronx wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:Guys you are going about this the wrong way.

Weapons on that list is the stuff that comes with basic configuration. That means gun and SAM. All other gear including cruise missiles are optional add ons. There is large space behind main gun, I assume that is reserved for large AA system if one is needed.

This ship is supposed to be anti piracy ship and auxiliary ship but not proper warship. At least that is what I think that ''offshore patrol vessel'' means. I could not find proper definition on line, if someone could provide one I would be grateful...

It will be stationed in the Black sea, the type of enemies it would more than likely face are NATO, Ukraine and such.  Maybe be sent to Syria but even then.

Those Igla's are unacceptable for today's environment.

......Armament

The main armament of the UK Royal Navy's new 90m offshore patrol vessel is a 30mm cannon. The vessel will be fitted with small calibre machine guns. It can also be mounted with a 12.7mm gun location and a 25mm secondary armament on both the port and starboard sides......

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

TheArmenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

Here are a few points for you to consider:

1) If the Russian Navy wanted a ship with Kalibr and Sosna, they would have ordered more Tatarstan class frigates to be built right there in Zelenodolsk (where the 22160 are being built).

2) At around 1500 T displacement, the project 22160 is around 25% smaller than the Steregushy class corvette. Do you really expect it to have a similar armament? You cannot have Kalibr missiles, Redut SAM and a helicopter on these smaller ships and still expect good endurance and range. Something has to be sacrificed here.

3) The 22160 ships are modular in design. Their armament and equipment can be changed according to missions and threats. The specs that are available are just examples. The Gibka system is just one possible option. By the way, the Gibka is no slouch. With the newer missiles (Verba) the range will be 6.5 km not that much shorter than a Sosna's 10 km. Also, the Palma/Sosna system is several times heavier and much more expensive.

4) The design of the 22160 ships tells me that these are going to be the stealthiest ships in the Russian navy with an RCS smaller than the Steregushy or Gorshkov frigate. Apart from their patrol and surveillance duties, they are designed to sneak into position, fire their Kalibrs and sneak out. They are not intended to play with airborne targets.

5) The Sosna missile on the Palma gun/missile complex is not the most modern weapon. Why place yesterday's system on the future warship? Sure, they placed it on Gorshkov (as a secondary SAM) because nothing else is available currently. On the 22160 which are a still a couple of years ahead, I would suspect an upcoming vertical launch short range missile system to occupy the modular space between the main gun and superstructure: A TOR follow up or MORPHEI.

TheArmenian wrote:

sepheronx wrote:But why Igla?  And what is said is the older missiles 9K38.  Why not Sosna with much larger range and altitude while being barely any bigger?

Here are a few points for you to consider:

1) If the Russian Navy wanted a ship with Kalibr and Sosna, they would have ordered more Tatarstan class frigates to be built right there in Zelenodolsk (where the 22160 are being built).

2) At around 1500 T displacement, the project 22160 is around 25% smaller than the Steregushy class corvette. Do you really expect it to have a similar armament? You cannot have Kalibr missiles, Redut SAM and a helicopter on these smaller ships and still expect good endurance and range. Something has to be sacrificed here.

3) The 22160 ships are modular in design. Their armament and equipment can be changed according to missions and threats. The specs that are available are just examples. The Gibka system is just one possible option. By the way, the Gibka is no slouch. With the newer missiles (Verba) the range will be 6.5 km not that much shorter than a Sosna's 10 km. Also, the Palma/Sosna system is several times heavier and much more expensive.

4) The design of the 22160 ships tells me that these are going to be the stealthiest ships in the Russian navy with an RCS smaller than the Steregushy or Gorshkov frigate. Apart from their patrol and surveillance duties, they are designed to sneak into position, fire their Kalibrs and sneak out. They are not intended to play with airborne targets.

5) The Sosna missile on the Palma gun/missile complex is not the most modern weapon. Why place yesterday's system on the future warship? Sure, they placed it on Gorshkov (as a secondary SAM) because nothing else is available currently. On the 22160 which are a still a couple of years ahead, I would suspect an upcoming vertical launch short range missile system to occupy the modular space between the main gun and superstructure: A TOR follow up or MORPHEI.

GarryB wrote:For a patrol boat I think a helo is rather more use than a medium range SAM.

magnumcromagnon wrote: You forget another point, Igla's/Verba's are designed to defeat cruise missiles, and most Western AshM's are basically cruise missiles designed to attack sea-surface boats, so essentially your better protected than some might think, plus either the 57mm main gun or the 76.2mm gun should be really good at defeating PGM's.

TheArmenian wrote:There is a fresh order for 6 naval version Ka-226T helicopters intended to be based on the project 22460 coast guard ships:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1577858.html

The Ka-226T looks like a good candidate for the pr. 22160 patrol ships as well.

The diagram posted above by Gunshipdiplomacy is a bit optimistic in my opinion. I believe the modular arrangement will be as follows:

-For surface warfare mission: The Klub/Kalibr system will be in containers in the back. Not in the limited spaces in front of the CIWS guns. That place is for the AK-630s only. Also, delete the Paket anti-sub system as the ship does not have a sonar.  

-For anti-submarine mission: Klub/Kalibr containers will be replaced by a dipping sonar and launchers for the Paket system.

The air defense system (whatever it may be) will be up front right behind the main gun.

TheArmenian wrote: The 22160 will certainly accommodate more systems and armament than Visby, we have no disagreement on that, but do not try to make a Steregushy out of it.

GarryB wrote:

Ka-226T seem to be a good match for this job both mass and size much smaller than Ka-29/31 and still can do the job.

Very true and for some observation missions they were developing unmanned helos that could also be ship based to offer useful support for vessels small and large.

The main point is that with the radars and IR optronic sensors on even a small patrol boat we are not talking about a man standing out in the open looking for potential targets with just his eyes... the igla system will get early warning and the aiming system will be cued to the target.

A 57mm or 76.2mm gun would also be very useful against subsonic anti ship missiles and aircraft.

GarryB wrote:

Drones are definitely good but IMHO for patrol ship you need to be able also to take humans (inspection crew or SAR missions).

Maybe with added corvette modules 22160 can have both drones and Ka-226T?

Actually the Ka-225T with Igla missiles or even R-73 missiles fitted would be a good solution to high flying drones and drones of all sorts could be carried...  a hand launched drone that "crashes" into a net for recovery could take up no deck space yet offer useful coverage of the sea around the vessel.

GarryB wrote:
Equally remember that if the air situation is harsh a couple of TOR-M3 or Pantsir-SM vehicles could be situated on the rear deck in place of those shipping containers with Kalibr.

BTW for Russian navy apparently artillery will be AK-176 but in stealthy looking turret, any news regarding new version? or no modernization no new ammo juat turres shape?

I suspect they had to choose between a 57mm front mounted gun and Shtil-1 mounted behind it, or a larger more powerful 76.2mm gun with lots of ammo and nothing behind it in front of the bridge... seems like they have gone for the latter. The 76.2mm gun would offer about a 14-16km range which is plenty for most targets... especially at about 120 rpm.

BTW Ka-226T has a modular construction - frame + container. You can change modules inside helo for depending on assignment

But IMHO Pantsir-M is better solution - Pantsir can down practically any drone now being used by US (ceiling up to 15km)

GarryB wrote:

I am not sure if choice is obvious for small ships. A-220M is half of weight (6000kg vs 13000kg) , has 2,5 better rate of fire (300 vs 120), 2x more ammo carried (400 vs 152) and higher vertical range - 8000m vs 7000m

Weight is rarely an issue on ships... internal volume is more of a problem.

Equally the old 57mm ammo has a range of 9.5km while the old 76.2mm ammo has a range of 16.5km and is rather heavier. I suspect if the range of the 57mm ammo has been increased then the same could be done with the 76.2mm rounds, while the larger shell capacity would offer guided shells with a heavier HE payload over greater distances.

BTW on Burevestnik´s website there are examples of ships where it can be sued. interesting is project 22500 - 950t displacement is this a look of future 22800 corvette? would be nice

The russians have a tradition of putting bigger guns on their vessels... Corvettes that would normally have a 76.2mm gun on it in the west are fitted with compact 100mm guns in Russia.

I am sure they will give careful consideration to all options and make a good choice... either way.

TheArmenian wrote:Gunship,

The model of the ship you posted earlier is unlikely to be built.

First of all it is an old concept that I have seen many years ago. It is a version of the Buyan-M corvettes and has similar displacement (950 T).

Furthermore, do not expect Naval Pantsir systems on stealthy ships. It will ruin the low RCS of the ships. Makes no sense.

And finally, the project 22800 is the one chosen to fill that niche.

Having said that, there will be a follow on to the Buyan series. I don't think the Russian MoD or designers are currently interested in revealing it (just like the pr.22800)