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    Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:37 am

    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.
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    BM-21

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  BM-21 on Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Yeah I thought I remembered seeing a video from TV Zvezda where they demonstrated it's VLS capability but it must have been a different ship.
    Still, the ships are getting the Kalibr which is a positive development for the BSF.
    Pozdrav.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:15 pm

    Just a question: project 22160 seems to be a nice ship to perform patrols in the Black Sea and the
    Mediterranean Sea, but to me they seem a little too small to operate let's say along coasts of Africa or Asia.

    Is there some larger OPV project in the pipeline, maybe slated for the Pacific Fleet or as an addition in the Black Sea Fleet for longer missions outside Mediterranean Sea?

    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:31 am

    I think should be OK, similar size is in use for OPVs around the world.
    Just doing a quick comparison the 60 day autonomy on 22160 is very impressive, most others seem to be only 20-40days.
    And obviously no others have a strategic range cruise-missile capability Razz

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:55 am

    There are several operative OPV around the world, displacing like a frigate or even a destroyer.

    The main issue I see with a corvette-sized displacement, is not related to endurance in itself, but to accessory facilities useful or even mandatory when operating far away from own bases, like proper medical facilities, and related staff, providing the crew full assistance in case of an heart stroke, or hypothermia and the likes.

    Not only first aid, but the full proper medical treatment, including surgery and post-operatory treatment.

    And if the crew has to sail weeks without having any port call, you should be able to embark additional staff to enable everybody onboard to have his full day off every week, to rest and to have just fun.

    As I see them, project 22160 are more intended to operate inside the Mediterranean Sea, where port calls and medical facilities are always quite at hand, than around the oceans, where you could simply not have anything resembling a port or a proper hospital in hundreds of miles range.

    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:28 am

    Its literally designed for anti-piracy ops off Somalia...


    Side point: been discussion over at Balancer forums about the speed, gets quoted as 30kt but there is a lot of doubt about that.
    Engines are 2* 6,000hp = 12,000 total
    Most similar size OPVs have ~10,000hp and speeds 20-25kt.
    22160 is longer & with more slender hull-form than many so with that extra power it should be faster than typical but 30kt is pretty unlikely.

    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:58 am

    Couple of new pics of the voyage to BS via Balancer

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:09 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:21 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?

    Price and construction speed, difference is massive

    Also no need for large ship with 2 month endurance in littoral zone

    22160 was designed back when piracy was still considered a big deal

    And it looks nice for export with that nuovo stealth look
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:00 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?

    Very different missions.  Karakurt is essentially a replacement for the venerable Nanuchka missile boats, slightly enlarged, but with much enhanced combat potential (as a result of UKSK cells). they are intended for short-range rapid-response operations in homewaters.  22160 is a long-range patrol and anti-piracy vessel with ~4x the endurance and a helicopter, but which can serve as a front-line warship if required.  22160 is nearly double the displacement of a Karakurt, so they clearly have differing missions.
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    medo

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  medo on Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:52 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?

    They have three ships for different tasks. 22800 Karakurt is an anti-ship missile boat/ccorvette. Buyan-M is land attack cruise missiles corvette already combat tested in Syria and 22160 is bigger OPV corvette for patroling in open sea. 22160 is ideal ship for Black sea fleet to keep constant presence in Mediterranean sea and most probably one or two ships will be constantly present in Tartus base in Syria. They will be cheaper than constant presence of Grigorovich frigates or destroyers from Northern fleet, which are more needed in northern Atlantic.
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    Isos

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:30 pm

    medo wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?

    They have three ships for different tasks. 22800 Karakurt is an anti-ship missile boat/ccorvette. Buyan-M is land attack cruise missiles corvette already combat tested in Syria and 22160 is bigger OPV corvette for patroling in open sea. 22160 is ideal ship for Black sea fleet to keep constant presence in Mediterranean sea and most probably one or two ships will be constantly present in Tartus base in Syria. They will be cheaper than constant presence of Grigorovich frigates or destroyers from Northern fleet, which are more needed in northern Atlantic.

    No they are not ideal for constant presence in Mediterranean unless they get shtill missiles.

    Buyan-M should be upgraded with antiship capabilities too they have the VLS so they just need the consol to be able to use Oniks missiles.

    Karakurt are less protected than Nanushka untill they give them Pansir.

    Russia made mistakes in building those classes. While they could have designed just 1 or 2 classes, they have now tens classes of corvettes and missile boats that are not even "complete" in terms of capabilities.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:02 pm

    Isos wrote:Russia made mistakes in building those classes. While they could have designed just 1 or 2 classes, they have now tens classes of corvettes and missile boats that are not even "complete" in terms of capabilities.

    No, that is a legacy of Soviet times.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:05 pm

    Karakurt are less protected than Nanushka untill they give them Pansir. 


    Pantsir is glorified CIWS.

    If you really want to make Buyan/Karakurt a multirole vessel then you need to stretch them first because they simply aren't big enough to carry everything they would need.



    Russia made mistakes in building those classes. While they could have designed just 1 or 2 classes, they have now tens classes of corvettes and missile boats that are not even "complete" in terms of capabilities.


    They do have just 2 classes. Just 1 actually since Karakurt is replacement for Buyan.

    Nothing bigger can compete with these ships in terms of buld speed and Navy needs new ships. What more they need numerous and cheap dedicated anti-ship platforms in order to cover and run interference for anti-sub ships like Steregushi and Derzkii because anti-sub ops are main thing. Dealing with surface navy of near peer opponent is just a sideshow in case of open conflict.
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    franco

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  franco on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:28 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Karakurt are less protected than Nanushka untill they give them Pansir. 


    Pantsir is glorified CIWS.

    If you really want to make Buyan/Karakurt a multirole vessel then you need to stretch them first because they simply aren't big enough to carry everything they would need.



    Russia made mistakes in building those classes. While they could have designed just 1 or 2 classes, they have now tens classes of corvettes and missile boats that are not even "complete" in terms of capabilities.


    They do have just 2 classes. Just 1 actually since Karakurt is replacement for Buyan.

    Nothing bigger can compete with these ships in terms of buld speed and Navy needs new ships. What more they need numerous and cheap dedicated anti-ship platforms in order to cover and run interference for anti-sub ships like Steregushi and Derzkii because anti-sub ops are main thing. Dealing with surface navy of near peer opponent is just a sideshow in case of open conflict.

    Karakurt is not replacing the Buyan-M but supplementing it. Both are being built and will serve together for the next 25-30 years. So I'm afraid there are two classes or perhaps to be more exact... 2 types for 1 class. Wink
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    Isos

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:20 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Russia made mistakes in building those classes. While they could have designed just 1 or 2 classes, they have now tens classes of corvettes and missile boats that are not even "complete" in terms of capabilities.

    No, that is a legacy of Soviet times.

    Yes and no.

    Soviets had special ships for special tasks and only the biggest were multirole. Modern russian navy tends to have multirole vessels, even if a small boats can't be truely multirole they are build with UKSK which should be able to fire every new missile and not only land Attack (buyan-M).

    Pantsir is glorified CIWS.

    If you really want to make Buyan/Karakurt a multirole vessel then you need to stretch them first because they simply aren't big enough to carry everything they would need.

    They do have just 2 classes. Just 1 actually since Karakurt is replacement for Buyan.

    Nothing bigger can compete with these ships in terms of buld speed and Navy needs new ships. What more they need numerous and cheap dedicated anti-ship platforms in order to cover and run interference for anti-sub ships like Steregushi and Derzkii because anti-sub ops are main thing. Dealing with surface navy of near peer opponent is just a sideshow in case of open conflict.


    Last time I saw pictures of Karakurt, the Pantsir was not there. Maybe I'm wrong. To be verified.

    If they have UKSK and Sigma that connect them to other ships, they are multirole. But they have to give them Pantsir (karakurt) and antiship capabilities to buyan's UKSK.

    Karakurt don't replace Buyan. They will keep Buyan as long as Karakurt ... They are ne ships too. And they have Molanyas, Karakurts, Buyans, Steregouchy (at least 3 variants), lot of differents patrol ships.

    I agree however that having more designs has some advantages so you don't use big ships for small task ... but using a non armed version of Karakurt would have beed decent for a patrol ship or Something like that.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:56 pm

    Isos wrote:Last time I saw pictures of Karakurt, the Pantsir was not there. Maybe I'm wrong. To be verified.

    If they have UKSK and Sigma that connect them to other ships, they are multirole. But they have to give them Pantsir (karakurt) and antiship capabilities to buyan's UKSK.

    Karakurt don't replace Buyan. They will keep Buyan as long as Karakurt ... They are ne ships too. And they have Molanyas, Karakurts, Buyans, Steregouchy (at least 3 variants), lot of differents patrol ships.

    I agree however that having more designs has some advantages so you don't use big ships for small task ... but using a non armed version of Karakurt would have beed decent for a patrol ship or Something like that.


    Third Karakurt and later will be getting Pantsirs but they are still just glorified CIWS compared to proper stuff

    Buyans are river boats that are designed to bypass START treaty and while they are still being built in parallel they will go out of production once this series is done

    They are building 2 Molonyas because they had 2 unfinished Tarantul hulls that they didn't want to throw away (and they shouldn't have, Caspian fleet will put them to good use)

    As for Steregushi and above, those are ships twice the size of Buyans/Karakurts so that is completely​ different topic

    Using Karakurt as patrol ship is not practical because it's short range even once you lighten them up, range is practically most important feature of patrol ships
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:14 pm

    Karakurts are basically just a sea version of the Buyan-M. Neither are particularly multirole (they have no anti-sub capabilities and only point-defence anti-air capabilities, and w/o any helicopters their patrolling & anti-piracy abilities won't be optimal).
    The Karakurt is more suited to the seas because it's a little bigger, has 33% better endurance and a slightly greater air-defence range with the Osa-M.
    Whereas the Buyan-M is more compact which is important for traversing internal waterways, and as it will likely operate well within the Russian air-defence network it really doesn't need anything bigger than a Gibka in terms of air-defence.
    Otherwise they're pretty much the same.

    Both classes are effectively what the Soviet-era category of missile boats has evolved into.. somewhat larger and slower vessels, but with anti-ship missiles of far greater range (so the vessel's speed doesn't matter as much), along with larger radars to spot enemy vessels further away.
    In addition to that, today's 'missile boats' have also taken on another important role - precision land-attack.. which no vessel in the Soviet Navy had back in the day.
    So they are dual-role.

    I have heard of potential anti-sub and patrol variants of the Karakurt; but the only way I can see those working is if they get rid of a whole bunch of things at the back and add a helicopter pad. Instead of going to the bother they might as well use a different class for that role; such as the same Project 22160.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:35 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BM-21 wrote:If I may ask, is is definite that at least some of the ships will be getting VLS cells for Kalibr?

    Nope on the Kalibr VLS, they will be stored in containers starting from 2nd ship, first one will be getting Uran containers.

    Later ships MIGHT get VLS for Shtil AA system but that's all still completely theoretical for now.

    Not to be boring but then why 22800 and 22160 in parallel? similar costs, equipment and speed with higher autonomy for 22160. . Not better to build longer series of 22160?

    Price and construction speed, difference is massive

    Also no need for large ship with 2 month endurance in littoral zone

    22160 was designed back when piracy was still considered a big deal

    And it looks nice for export with that nuovo stealth look

    Price would be strongest argument to me.  Karakurtis what I've found 2bln rubles and did you find 22160?
    Pace of construction is also a good argument but both types are not being built in the same shipyards so pace of constriction cannot  be compared yet.

    As for piracy there will be always need for long range paroling even to show Russian flag on oceans. Supporting humanitarian operations (you got 60 extra places and a helo).

    But as 22160  has modular design with comparable production times and costs better would be to have same series equipped for different tasks. With bigger displacement 22160 can have also ASW equipment...what can turn it  it fully pledged corvette (Calibrs, Shtil (or Naval TOR alternetively pantsir), Packet...




    flamming_python wrote: {}

    Both classes are effectively what the Soviet-era category of missile boats has evolved into.. somewhat larger and slower vessels, but with anti-ship missiles of far greater range (so the vessel's speed doesn't matter as much), along with larger radars to spot enemy vessels further away.
    In addition to that, today's 'missile boats' have also taken on another important role - precision land-attack.. which no vessel in the Soviet Navy had back in the day.
    So they are dual-role.

    I have heard of potential anti-sub and patrol variants of the Karakurt; but the only way I can see those working is if they get rid of a whole bunch of things at the back and add a helicopter pad. Instead of going to the bother they might as well use a different class for that role; such as the same Project 22160.

    I understand that 22800 is just quick stopgap in current almost hot war times to replace aging MRKs. But hopefully after testing 22160 as light multi-functional corvette it can take over long range escort tasks.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:32 am

    Photo showing the transfer of the Vassily Bykov to the Black sea and the reason why masts have to be dismounted while transiting.



    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:08 am

    Vid on the way down to Black Sea


    This is apparently arriving at Kerch on 10th


    And a deck photo

    Tingsay

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Tingsay on Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:19 am

    Russia's sexiest looking warship yet. Cool

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:21 am

    As I can figure it, 22800s are modern era FAC (Fast Attack Craft), while 22160 are something new for russian navy: a real patrol boat.

    I agree with the proposition that russian navy actually needs a long range patrol ship for peacetime operations.

    Point of fact, I would advocate even a larger class, frigate's size, supplemented by a mid size (13.000 to 16.000 full load displacement) support vessel (support meaning both fuel, stores and maintenance support).

    As a general configuration, the ability to embark two Ka-29's size helicopter plus two S-100's size UAV, two RIBs, a 100 mm gun, two Pantsir and one or two RBU-6000s and light torpedo's launch tubes.

    Main tasks would be sea lanes control and security, peace time escort (think of the so called Tartus Express) and close range ASW escort of logistic ships in war times.

    Displacement 3.000+ tons, integrated diesel-electric propulsion, hull lines aimed to sea keeping capabilities AND silent low speed cruise, ability to run on electric only propulsion for effective ASW's chase, sensor's suite able to integrate with higher echelon's vessels and to receive tactical pictures from them, that's it.

    hoom

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:23 am

    Thing is the Russian Coastguard has dedicated patrol boats
    3,000ton Project 22100 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okean_class_patrol_vessel
    1,000ton Project 22120 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purga-class_icebreaker (gets called an icebreaker but I think its just ice strengthened, not an icebreaker hullshape)
    600ton Project 22460 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin-class_patrol_boat
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Prοject 22160 - Offshore Patrol Vessel

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:49 pm


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