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    Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

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    GarryB

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:51 am

    They knew the US forces could detect their missiles from long distances... the purpose of high speed is to reduce the time they have to do something about it.

    The early models of missile were not sea skimming... they flew at 50m altitude or so.
    The new missiles however are fully sea skimming and can hit land targets now too.

    They are working on scramjet motors for the new missiles, but currently the fastest missile they have has a rocket propelled speed of mach 2.9 for the terminal phase of the attack.

    Moskit is reportedly able to fly at mach 2.2 at low altitude. Granit at mach 1.6 at the start of its flight and mach 2 near the end when it is much lighter having burned off several tons of fuel.

    Granit has titanium armour to protect the warhead and would be rather difficult to shoot down.



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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:They knew the US forces could detect their missiles from long distances... the purpose of high speed is to reduce the time they have to do something about it.

    The early models of missile were not sea skimming... they flew at 50m altitude or so.
    The new missiles however are fully sea skimming and can hit land targets now too.

    They are working on scramjet motors for the new missiles, but currently the fastest missile they have has a rocket propelled speed of mach 2.9 for the terminal phase of the attack.

    Moskit is reportedly able to fly at mach 2.2 at low altitude. Granit at mach 1.6 at the start of its flight and mach 2 near the end when it is much lighter having burned off several tons of fuel.

    Granit has titanium armour to protect the warhead and would be rather difficult to shoot down.


    If you check the three missile ( moskit/700/800) engine inlet the range and purpose of them become quite obvious.


    The 700/800 has a conical inlet, adjustable ( I expect) the moskit has a fixed inlet.

    Means that the moskit was designed for one altitude, the 700/800 felxible about the altitudes .

    If the 700 engine data true then the maximum speed of it could be around 1.7 match sea level, but it means that the maximum speed of it should be 4-6 match 24000 meter altitude.

    I don't think that the granit has titanium in the warhead.They have to had the inlet cone moving motor,and the radar in the front of the rocket.
    The CIW has very small chance to hit it, so why they should bother with any armour?


    If they updated the electronics of the rockets that means they have 100-300 kg extra weight allowance for the rockets.

    I think the attack profile of th 700/800 flexible, and they can decide the best based on the distance and attacker profile.

    And the true range of the 700/800 should be around 1500-2500 km.

    Based on this if the attacker launch them from 600km distance then they have enough allowance to make a full circle around the target , around 200 km, to synchronise all wolf.

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:13 pm

    Перед самым выходом российских кораблей к берегам Сирии Северный флот показательно провел учения, в ходе которых атомная подводная лодка проекта 949 «Антей» поразила «Гранитами» еще и несколько наземных целей. Transl.: Just before sailing to the coast of Syria, the Northern Fleet conducted exercises during which nuclear submarine Project 949 "Antey" [Oskar SSGN] struck with "Granite" a few ground targets. http://izvestia.ru/news/654331#ixzz4UMFphf7A
    So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:38 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Перед самым выходом российских кораблей к берегам Сирии Северный флот показательно провел учения, в ходе которых атомная подводная лодка проекта 949 «Антей» поразила «Гранитами» еще и несколько наземных целей. Transl.: Just before sailing to the coast of Syria, the Northern Fleet conducted exercises during which nuclear submarine Project 949 "Antey" [Oskar SSGN] struck with "Granite" a few ground targets. http://izvestia.ru/news/654331#ixzz4UMFphf7A
    So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?

    These are heavy, 7 tons monsters.

    With upgraded electronics the range of them should be higher than before OR they can have more electronic countermeasure than before OR additional capabilities that fit few hundred (max 500) kg.


    Just for reference, a MIG-21 is 8.8 tons, a granit is 7 tons.

    These are small fighter jet sized missiles.
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    Isos

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:50 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Перед самым выходом российских кораблей к берегам Сирии Северный флот показательно провел учения, в ходе которых атомная подводная лодка проекта 949 «Антей» поразила «Гранитами» еще и несколько наземных целей. Transl.: Just before sailing to the coast of Syria, the Northern Fleet conducted exercises during which nuclear submarine Project 949 "Antey" [Oskar SSGN]   struck with "Granite" a few ground targets. http://izvestia.ru/news/654331#ixzz4UMFphf7A
    So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?

    These are heavy, 7 tons monsters.

    With upgraded electronics the range of them should be higher than before OR they can have more electronic countermeasure than before OR additional capabilities that fit few hundred (max 500) kg.


    Just for reference, a MIG-21 is 8.8 tons, a granit is 7 tons.

    These are small fighter jet sized missiles.

    Electronics have nothing to do with range and Mig-21 at mach 1.5-2 will have simiar or shorter range than granit. Granit is a really good missile but its lunch plateform are very expensive.

    For the original question, if they replace them, they will destroy them because their are 3 types of vessel that carries them. If they don't replace them I don't think they wil use them in land atack mode (unless nuclear strike). They need all granits for attacking carriers.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:09 pm

    Can they all be modified to LACMs & still be AShMs? I expected this development-the Oskar SSGNs can now also strike land targets- it makes them a force multiplier. They now have 8 active(some undergoing modernization), so if all get those LACMs, 8 x72 each'll carry=up to 576 extra missiles to project power ashore!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar-class_submarine#Project_949A_Antey


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Isos

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:45 pm

    In theory they can. But it's simplier to use kalibr on different corvette and submarines + air lunched kh 101/55 which are in full production so cheaper.

    I don't think they still produce granit, the stocks from cold war are enough for a war against carriers but not for land attacks. They are like Tu-95, still used but if they lost them they can't replace them wit a new one. I'm not sure about that, however if it's true the good qestion would be: with what would be armed the Slavas, kirov and Oscar if the granit are no more useable ??
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:09 am

    The Admiral Nakhimov will carry the P-800 Oniks supersonic AShM. https://sputniknews.com/military/20140124186878185-Russia-Begins-Nuclear-Powered-Missile-Cruiser-Overhaul/
    I expect the other Kirov CGNs, Slavas, and Oscars will in due time too.
    http://www.janes.com/article/60518/russia-initiates-multiyear-plan-to-modernise-oscar-ii-ssgns
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:33 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Admiral Nakhimov will carry the P-800 Oniks supersonic AShM. https://sputniknews.com/military/20140124186878185-Russia-Begins-Nuclear-Powered-Missile-Cruiser-Overhaul/
    I expect the other Kirov CGNs, Slavas, and Oscars will in due time too.
    http://www.janes.com/article/60518/russia-initiates-multiyear-plan-to-modernise-oscar-ii-ssgns

    The 949M looks to be a signficant upgrade. Apart from 72 kalibre/Oniks, it also includes "fire-control, communications, sonar, radar, and electronic intercept equipment. The modernisation will also include updated Omnibus-M combat information and Simfoniya-3.2 navigation systems."

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  nastle77 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:07 am

    I wonder how much killing power does exocet and harpoon have? Compared to soviet era ASM

    Uss stark was stuck by 2 still managed to stay afloat

    The Iranian corvette in  praying mantis  was stuck by several before it sank

    Hypothetically how many harpoon would be needed to sink a average soviet cruiser like kresta II ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:16 am

    Most of the western reports and opinions during the cold war seemed to suggest that NATO weapons like Exocet and Harpoon were designed for mission kills rather than actually sinking a vessel.

    Soviet missiles on the other hand were designed to be used against very very large ships and therefore could be assumed to sink most smaller vessels.

    The western tactics likely included multiple hits as part of their strategy...


    Means that the moskit was designed for one altitude, the 700/800 felxible about the altitudes .

    Moskit was designed to defeat AEGIS and it did this by flying at a maximum altitude of 300m to acquire the target and the rest of the flight below the 7m minimum height altitude of the STANDARD naval SAM system used in the AEGIS class cruisers.

    Later models got extended ranges by being able to fly high to improve range performance.

    I don't think that the granit has titanium in the warhead.They have to had the inlet cone moving motor,and the radar in the front of the rocket.
    The CIW has very small chance to hit it, so why they should bother with any armour?

    the HE warhead is protected because the easiest way to defeat the missile is to make the warhead explode prematurely. In article discussing interception attempts by MiG-31s they mentioned that two R-33s were needed for the interception and suggested it was because of the armour around the warhead...


    Based on this if the attacker launch them from 600km distance then they have enough allowance to make a full circle around the target , around 200 km, to synchronise all wolf.

    Actually for AEGIS it would be better to attack from one direction as the number of engagement (ie SAM guidance channels) would be reduced and of course other defences like jammers and decoys would be less effective...

    So, will they keep & expend them in that role even after they r replaced in anti-ship role with newer missiles?

    That would be a cheap and effective way to use some up... though as targets simulating an enemy system would also be useful too.

    Can they all be modified to LACMs & still be AShMs? I expected this development-the Oskar SSGNs can now also strike land targets- it makes them a force multiplier.

    I suspect they are basically adapting the guidance systems along the same lines as they adapted the Yakhont to make it Brahmos...

    So I would expect fully dual purpose guidance.

    I'm not sure about that, however if it's true the good qestion would be: with what would be armed the Slavas, kirov and Oscar if the granit are no more useable ??

    Oscars are being adapted for Kalibr/Onix... AFAIK the Granit is out of production but they might have the Vulcan still in production as an alternative.

    I wonder how much killing power does exocet and harpoon have? Compared to soviet era ASM

    Just look at Ominus Squids signature... when the missile is supersonic even wing parts become effective fragmentation... not just parts accelerated by the warhead.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Actually for AEGIS it would be better to attack from one direction as the number of engagement (ie SAM guidance channels) would be reduced and of course other defences like jammers and decoys would be less effective...

    I used to read popular science mags from the 30s.

    Based on the popsci papers from 1938 the most advanced military aircraft detection system was like this:


    The reality was like this


    So, the description of the working of weapons can be interesting, but usually it come from an untrusted source.

    Neither the Russians, neither the US has interest to share any real and valid information about own/enemy weapon systems.

    So, based on this, the bandwidth /channel limitation is technical, it is easy to increase the number of control channels with the rockets.

    However if the rockets attack from different direction then it become theoretically impossible to make minimal SAM engage strategy .

    Of course I haven't calculated it, and I haven't spent too much time with it.
    so any attack profile can be good.

    But without too much time spent I think the best strategy should be to spread the rockets as wide as it possible.
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    medo

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  medo on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:57 pm

    I have a question regardin airborn anti-ship missiles. In Syria we could have seen a picture of Su-34 armed with Kh-35 missile. Are they in armament of RuNAVY Su-30SM and MiG-29K? Also Kh-59MK anti-ship missile is also integrated with Su-30 fighters. Are they in russian armament or they are used only with foreign users like China?

    For now it was said that naval Su-30SM will be armed with Kh-31AD anti-ship missiles. They need Kh-35 and Kh-59MK as well as they have around 300 km range. Kalibr missiles will be real ultimate anti-ship weapon with around 500 km range.
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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:52 am

    Radars and missiles big enough to detect targets at very long ranges will be huge and expensive... and will therefore will be included in the targets assigned to SLBMs and ICBMs.

    By the time the bombers get to their launch positions such targets will be vapour.

    The US does not have an IADS system and would have to triple its defence budget for the next 20 years to get one...

    Not going to happen.

    Neither the Russians, neither the US has interest to share any real and valid information about own/enemy weapon systems.

    Even an amateur like me can look at the new model of the AS-11 with two lower IR optical ports and work out that they have added a thermal channel for guidance...

    In Syria we could have seen a picture of Su-34 armed with Kh-35 missile. Are they in armament of RuNAVY Su-30SM and MiG-29K? Also Kh-59MK anti-ship missile is also integrated with Su-30 fighters. Are they in russian armament or they are used only with foreign users like China?

    I would suggest that would be a safe assumption... such a missile would be more useful to naval aircraft though the multifunction nature of new Russian aircraft and weapons would suggest usefulness against ground targets too.

    For now it was said that naval Su-30SM will be armed with Kh-31AD anti-ship missiles. They need Kh-35 and Kh-59MK as well as they have around 300 km range.

    Kh-31AD is reported to have the slightly shorter range of about 240km and a flight speed of mach 3.... I would think all three missiles would be useful...

    For now it was said that naval Su-30SM will be armed with Kh-31AD anti-ship missiles. They need Kh-35 and Kh-59MK as well as they have around 300 km range.

    Kalibr is a subsonic land attack missile and has a range of more than 2,500km...

    Onix has a range of 500km at mach 2.5 or there-abouts...


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    Isos

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:26 pm

    Is there some news about Brahmos NG ? It's supposed to be 5m long and 50 cm diameter, can we expect an integration in the redut cells ?
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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:59 am

    It is supposed to be smaller and lighter than Brahmos, so yes it should fit in a UKSK tube.

    The Yahkont the Brahmos was based on fits, as does the Onyx that both missiles are based upon fitted too.


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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  chicken on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:54 am

    Isos wrote:Is there some news about Brahmos NG ? It's supposed to be 5m long and 50 cm diameter, can we expect an integration in the redut cells ?

    Why the Redut Cells?
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    Isos

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:39 am

    chicken wrote:
    Isos wrote:Is there some news about Brahmos NG ? It's supposed to be 5m long and 50 cm diameter, can we expect an integration in the redut cells ?

    Why the Redut Cells?

    So you can free space in UKSK for cruise missiles and torpedo missiles or add more Brahmos for anti ship attacks. Now gorshkov can have 16 Anti ship missiles max and less if they put cruise missiles and torpedo missiles but it has 32 cells of Redut type. So you can put 4 more Brahmos Ng in redut and fit Cruise and torpedo missiles in UKSK.

    @Garry you didn't read carrefully, I was not aking about UKSK but redut.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:03 am

    So you can free space in UKSK for cruise missiles and torpedo missiles or add more Brahmos for anti ship attacks. Now gorshkov can have 16 Anti ship missiles max and less if they put cruise missiles and torpedo missiles but it has 32 cells of Redut type. So you can put 4 more Brahmos Ng in redut and fit Cruise and torpedo missiles in UKSK.

    @Garry you didn't read carrefully, I was not aking about UKSK but redut.

    Redut is a SAM system and does not include cruise missiles.

    The universal cruise missile carrier (UKSK) is designed to carry cruise missiles like land attack, anti ship, and anti sub missiles.

    Correction... Gorshkov will be able to carry 16 of the most capable hypersonic anti ship missiles available anywhere in the world... why substitute a small light anti ship missile with less speed, and less range...

    Onyx would outrange Brahmos by a significant margin... why carry a reduced weight brahmos?


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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:16 pm



    First live test at world of an in-atmosphere maneuverable hypersonic missile - product "Циркон" - will be executed this spring.



    http://www.interfax.ru/russia/549055



    The launching marine platform has been not specified, but is important to notice that among the possible hosts platforms is absent first Проект 885 but only Проект 885-M - this could be related to some adjustments required for the lauch tubes -.




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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:02 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    First live test at world of an in-atmosphere maneuverable hypersonic missile - product "Циркон" - will be executed this spring.

    http://www.interfax.ru/russia/549055

    The launching marine platform has been not specified, but is important to notice that among the possible hosts platforms is absent first Проект 885 but only Проект 885-M - this could be related to some adjustments required for the lauch tubes -.


    So submarine for a first launch? Ambitious, I like it! thumbsup

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    Re: Anti-Ship Missiles Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:37 am


    PapaDragon wrote:So submarine for a first launch? Ambitious, I like it! thumbsup


    I have not said that the launching platform will be a 885М submarine Smile

    Instead i have merely pointed out that it appear the first ship of the class - К-560 "Северодвинск" - will be likely "limited" to employment of 3M54 «Калибр» and 3М55 "Оникс" missiles while only from the second submarine - К-561 "Казань" - and following banners the hypersonic "Циркон" missile could be launched. Wink

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