Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Share
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 867
    Points : 885
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:31 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Alternatively, they may be planning to carry the anti-ship kalibre model with the Mach3 sea-skimmer rocket-powered terminal attack stage.  Not much gets said about this variant, but its likely to be at least as lethal as an Oniks, and with its subsonic sea-skimmer approach it would be harder to defend against than an fast Oniks cruising at higher altitudes.

    Quite the opposite.

    The anti-ship version of Kalibr is subsonic in the initial part and supersonic in the final attack stage.

    Yes, i could have written it a little better.  Kalibre AShM is a subsonic low-altitude, near sea-skimmer for its cruise stage, then releases its M3 terminal attack stage for the final run to target.  My point is that when in its subsonic cruise stage at low altitude, the Kalibre is more difficult to defend against than a larger supersonic Granit at a higher cruise altutude.

    Of course, when its a small M3 rocket coming in just above wave height its a friggin' nightmare! Twisted Evil
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:49 am

    GarryB wrote:..Now that every new Russian ship can carry Onyx and soon Zircon they might be considering a role change for the Oscars as their upgrade to carry 72 missiles including land attack cruise missiles becomes rather interesting in terms of interventions.
    In fact a single Oscar could carry a mix of Zircon missiles for use against enemy carrier groups and also land attack cruise missiles for use against ports and infrastructure. With torpedoes and missiles it would be quite capable of taking on a small country by itself. Having two or three could be all you need to take out a small country, or even a first rate military.
    I agree, but a 1st rate military won't be "taken out" by a single Oscar!
    These subs will be a stop gap & force multipliers until new platforms, surface & subsurface, are built in sufficient numbers. They may also carry UAVs, Special Forces, & patrol the increasingly ice-free Arctic. "8 Delta I/III SSBN [I know the difference!] under-ice transfers conducted between 1980 and 2008" from Kola to Kamchatka. http://7fbtk.blogspot.com/2015/
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16891
    Points : 17499
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:13 am

    I agree, but a 1st rate military won't be "taken out" by a single Oscar!

    72 mach 8 land attack cruise missiles would devastate most countries even with conventional warheads.

    For anything less than a first rate military even subsonic cruise missiles would be problematic if not prepared for the attack.

    These subs will be a stop gap & force multipliers until new platforms, surface & subsurface, are built in sufficient numbers.

    Of course... you can only upgrade so far and get so much bang for buck. At the end of the day to get really efficient sophisticated capable vessels they need to be custom designed from the start for the multipurpose role.

    They may also carry UAVs, Special Forces, & patrol the increasingly ice-free Arctic. "8 Delta I/III SSBN [I know the difference!] under-ice transfers conducted between 1980 and 2008" from Kola to Kamchatka.

    They are actually building a custom designed sub bigger than Typhoon/Akula for the purpose of "Special missions".

    based on the Oscar II:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201704231052905471-russia-navy-biggest-sub/


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:40 pm

    "72 mach 8 land attack cruise missiles would devastate most countries even with conventional warheads."- it's not the same as "take out", i.e. totally destroy/render out of action. The US used "297 Tomahawks, of which 282 began their mission successfully (9 failed to leave the tube and 6 fell into the water after leaving the tube). At least 2 (and possibly as many as 6) were shot down,.."= 280-276, or 3.8 times  more than 72 on Iraq in Desert Storm & still didn't eliminate its non-1st rate military, while its fighters were later buried in the sand to avoid destruction & were discovered only in 2003. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/weapons/tomahawk.html 
    "They are actually building a custom designed sub bigger than Typhoon/Akula for the purpose of "Special missions"."
    I know, it's a "mother sub" for deep underwater work, not necessarily to insert frogmen ashore. For such risky missions, SSNs, SSKs, & SSGNs may/will be used.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corrections)
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16891
    Points : 17499
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:53 am

    ummm... with 30% of its warheads being nuclear armed I would say it would.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:34 am

    But earlier you said: "72 mach 8 land attack cruise missiles would devastate most countries even with conventional warheads.", & my reply was based on that assertion. Even 2-3 Oscars won't "take out" a 1st rate military", as the example of Iraq, which never had a 1st rate military, shows. Then, 276-280 CMs hit their targets, (or = ~3.8 Oscars with 72 LACMs each); they inflicted considerable damage but the devastation wasn't enough to prevent Iraq from suppressing subsequent uprisings in the North & South. In 1998, Desert Fox did more damage & further degraded their capabilities but in 2003, in many areas there was some stiff resistance against the invading forces. LACMs are best against high value targets & they could also be used against moored/anchored ships/subs. I wonder, hypothetically speaking, if the D. Donskoi SSBN (the last Typhoon) converted to SSGN, how many max. CMs could it carry?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16891
    Points : 17499
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:24 am

    Even 2-3 Oscars won't "take out" a 1st rate military", as the example of Iraq, which never had a 1st rate military, shows.

    The example of Iraq is not a fair example... the US used 59 cruise missiles and didn't even take out one Syrian air base... but then more than half didn't even make it to the target so there are no surprises there.

    Perhaps the American military does not know what it is doing... maybe the other missiles ran out of fuel while looking for baby milk factories to destroy.

    A subsonic low flying cruise missile requires half a dozen missiles per target to ensure a hit... mach 8 missiles wont need so many and even when flying at altitude they should be very effective.

    72 missiles wont destroy a country, but could degrade the nations air defences to the point where they cannot defend themselves. Radars, major Comms centres, power stations, HQs, Airfields, major SAM sites.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:46 am

    I'm sure if only the latest, more precise Tomahawk versions now in stock were used against Iraq between in 1991-2003, the results would be similar. They can destroy things above the ground/water but not in deep underground in 1 hit, if at all. For that, bunker busters are needed, & only the USAF & the RuAF have them now as AFAIK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_buster#Modern
    I also doubt that Mach 8 & above CMs can substitute for bunker busters. To take out a 1st rate military, all those bunkers must be wiped out. Good luck finding all of them!
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16891
    Points : 17499
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:46 am

    I also doubt that Mach 8 & above CMs can substitute for bunker busters. To take out a 1st rate military, all those bunkers must be wiped out. Good luck finding all of them!

    Yeah... lot of talk in the US about bunker busters... but how many have actually been used with any success?

    For some time they were talking about small power nukes for the bunker busting role... which suggests they don't have an effective one yet.

    I rather doubt the wests ability to find actual bunkers too.

    For Russia taking out a few important economic targets would be as effective for them as hitting a bunker with the enemy leadership. A few oil refineries, a few baby milk factories...

    You don't actually need to take out all those bunkers... destroying their effective air force and C4IR system is rather more important than hitting some bunker that might be empty anyway.

    Cruise missiles can take out the air defence system to allow aircraft in to finish the job.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:12 pm

    Bunkers are also built for C4IR command posts, missile/ammo/weapons/materials/food storage, & aircraft production/repair, to name a few. A 1st rate military has either SSGs, SSGNs, SSBNs, or all of the above. Their bases & the subs caught there can also be destroyed by nuclear mines/torpedoes rather than tactical CMs. Also, airborne command posts won't be all destroyed on the open ground by LACMs. Most of their bases are out of range of SSGNs anyway, as well as missile trains that Russia & PRC are now developing, besides already fielded road mobile BM launchers which North Korea now also has. LACMs in their present & near future form are still tactical weapons that, even if there is enough of them to be used for strategic purposes, will be a huge waste of resources. Economy can also be crippled by cyber warfare but if the opposing military can still strike back for a few days/weeks it may be the Pyrrhic victory for the attackers, & if there is a follow on occupation like we've seen in Iraq & Afghanistan, guerrilla warfare that results can't be stopped by LACMs alone either, if at all. Russian ALCM & LACM attacks in Syria from Caspian & Med. Seas helped but couldn't & didn't bring immediate victory to Assad forces. Since then, the war there was far from over. So, LACMs, Mach8 or not, must be used in concert with other strike weapons.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ad text)
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 642
    Points : 640
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  hoom on Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:21 am

    Just a nice pic (captioned as post-refit so presumably Orel?)


    I remember running into a sequence of pics of subs at dock that really showed how huge these are:
    A Sierra on one side vs an Akula on the other (captioned that Sierra is about same size as an LA class)
    Then an Akula with an Oscar showing nearly the same scale difference.
    Finally an Oscar with a Typhoon showing again similar upscale.
    Wish I could find that sequence again.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    IMAGES FOR COMPARISON

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:38 pm


    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 642
    Points : 640
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  hoom on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:57 am

    Perfect thank you! cheers
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 971
    Points : 969
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:14 pm

    Granit luched from Oscar sub:


    avatar
    Benya

    Posts : 528
    Points : 532
    Join date : 2016-06-05
    Location : Budapest, Hungary

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Benya on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:37 pm

    ^ A bit more info about that.

    The Russian Pacific Fleet’s Project 949A Antey (Oscar-II class) nuclear-powered attack submarine Tomsk has launched a cruise missile against a coastal target while operating at sea, fleet spokesman Captain 2nd Rank Vladimir Matveyev said.

    "A Granit [NATO reporting name: SS-N-19 Shipwreck] supersonic cruise missile was launched from the underwater position in the Sea of Okhotsk against a multiple coastal target set up at the Kura training range in Kamchatka," the spokesman said.

    "While operating at sea, the submarine’s crew members carried out more than a dozen of drills. In particular, they practiced stealthily assuming the best position for an attack and avoiding a counterattack," he added.

    During a competition among submarines held by the Navy in 2016, the Pacific Fleet’s nuclear-powered attack submarine Tomsk ranked first as it showed the best skills in destroying hostile surface ships and launching cruise missiles against sea targets.

    Also, the submarine’s crew was awarded the challenge cup by the Pacific Fleet’s commander for the victory in the championship and the challenge cup by the Pacific Fleet Submariner Union for high combat skills.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/july-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5386-video-russia-s-oscar-ii-ssn-tomsk-launches-cruise-missile-against-coastal-target.html
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 265
    Points : 267
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:47 pm

    "Granite" blow by submarine "Tomsk" https://ria.ru/analytics/20170712/1498368534.html?utm_source=ria.24smi.info&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=2007&utm_content=1232071
    I wonder if all Granits will be modified for this dual strike role. They are have shorte range, but even harder to shoot down than Kalibres!
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5761
    Points : 5865
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  PapaDragon Yesterday at 5:17 pm

    '
    'Omsk' undergoing overhaul at Zvezda shipyard

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/101785/

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16891
    Points : 17499
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  GarryB Today at 12:01 am

    Just noticed this chart is wrong:





    Typhoon has 20 missiles and Borei has 16 missiles.... not the other way around.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Project 949A: Oscar-II

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:11 am