Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Share

    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 6:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Severodvinsk hasn't been in the water all that long and her improved sister ships have not even hit the water yet, yet the US is giving performance information out like they know more than the Russian Navy does.

    Those are estimates or trends what the ONI believes could be broadband noise quitening ..... but those are not gospel truth and things might not be as black and white as US Intelligence thinks.

    If you listen to this person... why don't you listen to Artjomh?

    Because he served on Russian SSBN for some time and had vast experience in the Navy on Surface Ships .....Artjomh opinion i do respect a lot but like i said he is not infallible.....no one is for that matter.

    The Americans are perfectly happy to lie when it suits them.

    Look at the WMD debacle with Iraq as an example of using information and "estimates" that suited their agenda.

    Added to that the very strong US believe in its technical superiority and US strong propaganda and I really don't rate the information coming from the US. They will likely happily manipulate the evidence one way or the other to suit their current needs so I will not put much trust in the figures and charts they release.

    It is true that USN might just inflate the threat to get budgets or simply might not have all the intelligence information they need to get the right information even if they do a honest assessment.

    But i have read many documents on this subjects from reputed US Authors , Critiques and Russian Navy Literature .....suffice to say this is a classified subject and its simply not possible to compare one is to one for any submarine even if information were to be available there are just too many variables.

    But if you ask my opinion i would say that Akula is a formidable enemy both in its own backyard and in open seas , there are many aspects to submarine performance both at tactical and strategic level and Noise is one of them.

    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 7:32 pm

    Wait, I never heard of Artjomh serving on a SSBN. Proof?

    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Austin on Fri May 11, 2012 7:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wait, I never heard of Artjomh serving on a SSBN. Proof?

    Not Artjomh but the other guy is what i am talking about
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 11, 2012 9:21 pm

    Woops, reading fail on my part.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16536
    Points : 17144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    russian nuclear submarine force

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 12, 2012 2:27 am

    Those are estimates or trends what the ONI believes could be broadband noise quitening ..... but those are not gospel truth and things might not be as black and white as US Intelligence thinks.

    In other words guesses from an organisation with a very high opinion of itself... better than nothing but not much better.

    Because he served on Russian SSBN for some time and had vast experience in the Navy on Surface Ships .....Artjomh opinion i do respect a lot but like i said he is not infallible.....no one is for that matter.

    I was under the impression that Artjomh served in the Soviet/Russian navy.

    But if you ask my opinion i would say that Akula is a formidable enemy both in its own backyard and in open seas , there are many aspects to submarine performance both at tactical and strategic level and Noise is one of them.

    We know more about the surface of the moon than we know about the ocean depths. To suggest a Seawolf will always prevail is to assume your enemy is an idiot. Even the noisiest sub known to man can sit in its home port with its reactor shut down safely for hours with no noise emissions at all... tactics can compensate for a lot of perceived problems.

    I vaguely recall an incident that occurred during the cold war when Soviet Subs were ordered to go somewhere and changed to "war mode" and managed to slip past western ASW defences undetected... it is not impossible for there to be a noise maker fitted to Russians subs that gives them a distinctive signature and lull the west into a false sense of security, but when the brown stuff hits the fan can be turned off. Not the first surprise the Soviets played on the west.

    On a side note. Why doesn't one of you guys just invite artjomh to join this forum.
    I haven't posted in mp.net for a long while, and I don't even remember my password.

    My log in on MP.net doesn't work, otherwise I would be happy to give him a PM invite to come here.


    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Austin on Sat May 12, 2012 10:36 am

    Artjomh AFAIK is not a serving or retd Military Officer

    The only one i know on mp.net was SmoothieX12 , unfortunately he was banned for petty reasons ( typical mp.net ) his resume that he shared is mentioned below


    I graduated in 1985 Caspian High Naval (Red Banner--only two of them existed in USSR) Academy of S.M.Kirov. Navigational faculty, specialist in gyro-inertial navigational complexes of the strategic missile systems (basic projects of SSBNs 667B-BD) but went on to serve on the surface fleet. One dive in the project 613 SSK was enough to convince me that I had enough of subs (although later I spent a lot of time on them, thankfully, mostly in the surface mode). As to give You impression who graduated my alma-mater, from Hero Of The Soviet Union (actually more than 30 of them graduated in different times) Admiral Zhiltsov to Admiral Arkhipov (You should now him as CS of 69 BRPL in Caribean Crisis) to Admiral Turilin and the list goes on and on. Even Evgenii Primakov studied for a couple of years in our alma-mater.

    Any one interested in Russian Submarine development and how it fares against US/NATO please read the thread below SmoothieX12 has provided some good details on this thread.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185135-Russian-subs-stalk-UK-SSBN-in-echo-of-Cold-War-*

    Garry you should get lot of answers on this thread.

    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2012 11:11 am

    As far as ASW battle goes between NATO/US and Russia , We just know one side of the story and from US side . Russian Navvy does not offically comment on what it thinks about USN Submarine fleet and how/if there could be tracked etc ....one side of story no matter how real just gives you half of picture.

    I just wished RuN/MOD released some basic information on Noise level and what they think of USN threat , US makes a big noise when Akula visits US coast , RuN should also release information of USN submarine patrol in Russian waters and make a noise via media

    Any ways here is a 1997 report of USN think about Russian Submarine fleet , it may be old but it gives a good idea on how capable Russian submarine are and its gone better .......ofcourse 1997 was also the time when Gepard was not commisioned which took Akula class to the next level of technology advancement

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1997-07/catch-quiet-ones

    Despite denials that their submarines operate out of area, declassification of several recent Russian submarine deployments proves otherwise. 5 Akula-class submarines conducted unprecedented operations off our submarine bases at both Kings Bay, Georgia, and Bangor, Washington, in an attempt to detect and track our SSBNs. Oscar II submarines in both the Pacific and Atlantic conducted intercepts of our transiting aircraft carrier battle groups and amphibious ready groups. More recently, a Victor III submarine disrupted a major NATO exercise off the coast of Britain. These partings of the ASW curtain provide just a small glimpse of current frontline Russian nuclear submarine operations against our forces. They do not begin to address how difficult it is to detect and track the modern Russian nuclear-powered submarine.

    Russian advances in submarine quieting are well documented, but published estimates tend to emphasize a general impact on overall noise levels. 6 If we consider the submarine's median detection range (MDR)—the distance at which there exists a 50% probability of target detection on a single sonobuoy—we get a more accurate illustration of the challenge: Russian submarine MDRs are only a third of what they were ten years ago. Search patterns that once were spaced several miles apart today are spaced in yards. Individual sonobuoy contact time that once was measured in minutes now is measured in seconds. Reduced MDRs also have made dual aircraft operations nearly mandatory to increase the probability of detection on large-area search patterns to acceptable levels. It also is important to note that the high-speed capabilities of Russian submarines are of less concern to the ASW tactician, because MDRs increase significantly as speed increases. Slow-speed operations, however, are lethal. The MPA community myth regarding the short MDR Russian submarine may be somewhat inflated, but no one, including our allies, tracks an Akula class submarine at patrol speeds for long.

    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    A good example of why MP.net is a joke, and the expertise levels of "western sub fans".

    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2012 11:13 am

    I think the crux of matter as far as Akula submarine goes and it has beeen proven last year when US media released leaks of Akula patrolling US coast and then it was found in Canada and then it dissapeared etc

    No one can track an Akula for long at tactical speed , you can track it for some time but then it simply vanished without trace ..... not good if you look at from opponent perspective.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1185
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    U.S. vs Soviet/Russian Nuclear Submarines

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:32 pm

    can  many  NATO  AS torpedos today  dive to 500-600m? I've  heard  that diving depth is  completely irrelevant in todays naval warfare. Can torpedos easily target  subs  with passive sonar alone. Once a very load sub(alfa  or typhoon class for example)  has been detected by passive sonar can  it  loose detection or is it doomed?
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    can many NATO AS torpedos today dive to 500-600m?

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:44 pm

    Who said Akula (Typhoon is a NATO name, let's learn the proper names mkay? Smile ) is loud?

    Also Alfa had good noise characteristics at low speeds. Going 40+ knots is going to be louder by nature.
    avatar
    collegeboy16

    Posts : 1175
    Points : 1184
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Roanapur

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:15 pm

    ^^^ holy shiet! i want one for my commute.

    Austin

    Posts : 6335
    Points : 6735
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:17 pm

    Check pg 17 of Congress/US GAO new report June 2014

    It list a number of shortcoming of Virginia class submarine in the Arctic

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32418.pdf
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Mike E on Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:20 am

    Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)
    avatar
    RTN

    Posts : 188
    Points : 169
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  RTN on Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:50 pm

    Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)


    Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .

    The US Navy excels in submarine operation in littoral water , something that most European and Asian navies have not excelled at till date .
    avatar
    zg18

    Posts : 881
    Points : 957
    Join date : 2013-09-26
    Location : Zagreb , Croatia

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  zg18 on Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:37 pm

    Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

    USN is by far most powerful navy in the world, virtually unchecked ocean Navy since USSR collapse so it has quite a room to experiment.
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5357
    Points : 5588
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:40 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)


    Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .



    If i remember right, Mindstorm posted about year back, a very good post showing that not only Germany,UK and France came so close to US ships and ACs which were guarded by US submarines and could not track those subs for hours and days, and those NATO countries are much weaker in Navy than Russia.

    If the search function on this forum wasn't so poor designed i would be able to track down the exact post.

    So the claim
    RTN wrote:The US Navy excels in submarine operation in littoral water , something that most European and Asian navies have not excelled at till date .

    is wrong.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:25 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    RTN wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)


    Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .



    If i remember right, Mindstorm posted about year back, a very good post showing that not only Germany,UK and France came so close to US ships and ACs which were guarded by US submarines and could not track those subs for hours and days, and those NATO countries are much weaker in Navy than Russia.

    If the search function on this forum wasn't so poor designed i would be able to track down the exact post.

    So the claim
    RTN wrote:The US Navy excels in submarine operation in littoral water , something that most European and Asian navies have not excelled at till date .

    is wrong.

    Don't forget the Pentagon was shocked to find out that a Russian sub back in 2012 was spotted off the Gulf Coast in the Gulf of Mexico, and that very sub was parked in America's backyard for an entire month undetected by the U.S. Navy...suffice to say it was a huge scandal in Washington:

    http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks
    avatar
    RTN

    Posts : 188
    Points : 169
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  RTN on Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:36 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Don't forget the Pentagon was shocked to find out that a Russian sub back in 2012 was spotted off the Gulf Coast in the Gulf of Mexico, and that very sub was parked in America's backyard for an entire month undetected by the U.S. Navy...suffice to say it was a huge scandal in Washington:

    http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks

    Two things . First , I was referring to incident/s where the Chinese Navy was unable to detect the OHIO class submarines inspite of the fact that they were just 20 nauticle miles off the Chinese coast .

    Second , the above link that you have posted was released to the press by certain Congressmen whose States will benefit if DoD allocates more resources to Submarine development .

    The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs . That explains why the USSR invested so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 37
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:10 pm

    RTN wrote:The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs . That explains why the USSR invested  so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

    1. SSSR had similar system in place and US still developed SSN
    2. SSSR had something like 250 nuclear subs and most of it where SSN
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:37 am

    RTN wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Don't forget the Pentagon was shocked to find out that a Russian sub back in 2012 was spotted off the Gulf Coast in the Gulf of Mexico, and that very sub was parked in America's backyard for an entire month undetected by the U.S. Navy...suffice to say it was a huge scandal in Washington:

    http://nation.foxnews.com/russia/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-gulf-mexico-undetected-weeks

    Two things . First , I was referring to incident/s where the Chinese Navy was unable to detect the OHIO class submarines inspite of the fact that they were just 20 nauticle miles off the Chinese coast .

    Second , the above link that you have posted was released to the press by certain Congressmen whose States will benefit if DoD allocates more resources to Submarine development .

    The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs . That explains why the USSR invested  so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

    Your clearly downplaying how stealthy Russian subs can be but at the same time glossing over the fact that the U.S. Navy has always acknowledged that Russian subs were stealthy and dangerous...the improved Kilo class of submarines (a.k.a. Project 636 Varshavyanka) have been labeled "black holes" by the U.S. Navy (because black holes are usually invisible and hard to detect and also extremely dangerous), it should be also be noted that Project 636 is a popular submarine on the export market and that China has received no less than 10 Project 636 subs between 1997-2005. With that being said I thinks it's fair to say that U.S., Russia, and China have their fair share of stealthy submarines and neither countries submarine fleets should be taken so lightly as your taking them (Russia and China's submarine fleets).:

    http://www.defensereview.com/russian-novorossiysk-diesel-electric-silent-submarine-new-silent-sub-creates-virtually-undetectable-maritime-black-hole/
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Mike E on Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:12 am

    The Kilo class is very quiet, and the future "Lada" class even more so.

    Heck, even the Project 971 class is "deadly quiet". They even have low speed electric propulsors that quiet them down even further. Now that the Yasen class is progressing, Russia actually now has the quietest subs in service (nuclear).
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16536
    Points : 17144
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:08 pm

    Interesting, it seems like the US Navy is considerably weaker than what most people think. Not only that, but it is constantly getting weaker year after year. (Thanks to the Zumwalts, LCS etc.)

    Both the US and USSR and Russia are never as weak or as strong as some people seem to think they are... in fact I don't think it is irony that the Soviet Union and the United States are SU and US...

    Ohio-class SSBNs are among the quietest submarines in the world and are Extremely difficult to detect . They have come as close to 20 nauticle miles of the Chinese coastline and the PLAN has not been able to detect them .

    The quietest subs in the world are those subs that can run on all electric propulsion... an ohio class with its reactor shut down is very quiet, but they have to run their reactor for power and the reactor needs cooling... cooling fluids flowing through pipes make noise.... the same for any nuke propelled boat.

    BTW 20 nautical miles is international waters... finding them in a Chinese harbour would be rather more impressive.

    I remember reading about a US sub captain who sailed right into a Soviet harbour area and got caught... they chased him to the edge of the harbour but cornered him and forced him to surface. It was all written from the perspective of the US sub captain who expected to be sent to Siberia but the Russian ship captain who forced him to surface basically said something along the lines of "thanks for the practise (in ASW)" and let him sail off.

    Second , the above link that you have posted was released to the press by certain Congressmen whose States will benefit if DoD allocates more resources to Submarine development .

    The information was released by someone with an agenda... does that make it non factual?

    The USSR realized long back that they cannot send submarines close to the US coast because the US Navy had placed sensors at strategic choke points that will easily detect the movement of Soviet subs .

    The Soviets sent Yankee class SSBNs to US waters well into the 1980s. Those noisy old boats were fairly easy to detect but likely would have gotten a few missiles off before being sunk and at that range the time to explosion would be less than 3 minutes...

    That explains why the USSR invested so heavily in SLBMs that can be fired from Russian territorial waters directly into the US .

    I guess the reverse must be true too then because the US spent a fortune on developing long range SLBMs too. Smile



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    RTN

    Posts : 188
    Points : 169
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  RTN on Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:an ohio class with its reactor shut down is very quiet, but they have to run their reactor for power and the reactor needs cooling... cooling fluids flowing through pipes make noise.... the same for any nuke propelled boat.

    Once the OHIO class subs have powered up their batteries, the submarines can sail to the bottom of coastal waters and remain undetected for days .Hunting for quiet OHIO class submarines in the shallow waters of the littorals is akin to trying to identify the sound of a single car engine in the din of a major city .

    There are variations in the underwater topography, with sand bars, coral reefs and channels. Different depths of water and changing salinity and temperatures alter how sounds propagate. Marine life and merchant shipping also complicate the search by generating ambient noise.

    The reactor itself is designed to operate for a total of 33 years without refuelling, providing a significant advantage over other submarines that are forced to refuel. They rely on pump-jet propulsors for quiet operation, and they also reduce the risk of cavitation, which can cause damage to components.

    The AN/BQQ-10(V4) sonar processing system is the most advanced system in it's class in the world . This coupled with the WLR-10 threat warning system and the WLR-8(V) surveillance receiver makes the OHIO class submarines immune to hostile enemy actions .
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5357
    Points : 5588
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:49 pm

    RTN wrote:
    The AN/BQQ-10(V4) sonar processing system is the most advanced system in it's class in the world . This coupled with the WLR-10 threat warning system and the WLR-8(V) surveillance receiver makes the OHIO class submarines immune to hostile enemy actions .

    WW2 Tiger tank propaganda and US Iraq war Abrams propaganda to what you just said.

    When Tiger crews believed own propaganda which were aimed at Soviet Union that Tiger tank is indestructable and than drove into battle without formation and were shot to pieces.

    Or a video of an Abrams tank crew that was interviewed by a reporter right before they were heading out for mission, after they were getting order to head out, the crew stopped the interview, commander and gunner put on headphones from their old CD walkmens, one smiled into camera and said " heavy metal" and they drove away.

    I would be scared to have to serve with such loose,undisciplined and plain dangerously stupid people.

    avatar
    RTN

    Posts : 188
    Points : 169
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  RTN on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm

    Werewolf wrote:WW2 Tiger tank propaganda and US Iraq war Abrams propaganda to what you just said.

    Do you have any reasons to believe that the AN/BQQ-10(V4) sonar processing system ;
    WLR-10 threat warning system and
    WLR-8(V) surveillance receiver
    are not top of their class ?

    What are their Russian analogues ?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:13 am