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    Submarine Warfare: U.S. vs Russia

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    Post  Kimppis on Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:43 pm

    They can roughly allocate 20 sub against russian navy maximum.

    This. China already has 40+ modern SSKs, plus even some decent SSNs (the improved Type 093 variant).

    Haters of PLA(N) are gonna hate, as usual, but the upcoming Type 095 is the real deal, IMO, and it will arrive in numbers sooner than most expect (again).

    So by 2030, if not slightly earlier, the combined totals of Russia and China will be something like: 40-50 SSNs and at least 80 SSKs. Man... it really doesn't look good for the "New American Century." Just another reminder. As if Kinzhals and Type 055s weren't enough...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:03 am

    Now Russia has 2 submarine project 885/85M. USA has 17 Virginia class submarine and building next 11 Very Happy. The US has a huge advantage in SSN. Russia will soon be defeated by China.

    It is also surrounded by the two biggest oceans on the planet with lots of hostile enemies.

    China having more subs is a good thing because they are more likely to be used against US subs than Russian ones...

    The US does not need SSK. They build a lot of nuclear submarines that they do not have to have an SSK that has many limitations.

    Actually how long can the US continue to spend too much on weapons when much much cheaper options that are in some regards superior are ignored.

    A decent modern SSK is a fraction of the cost of an SSN, yet in shallow water an SSK is markedly superior in most regards except top speed.

    And top speed in a sub means you have lost because even at top speed there are lots of torpedoes that could chase you down...

    The purpose of the Virginia class are to defend carriers/assault ships against attack by other subs and to search for SSBN´s.

    It would be pretty useless protecting carriers and assault ships... how could a Virginia class stop a Kh-32 or Onyx, let alone a Kinzhal or Zircon?

    It would be a mistake. SSKs are better for shallow seas surrounding Russia.

    That is because they are normally smaller than most SSNs... if you take out the main diesel engines, but keep the batteries and put in a small nuclear power plant and a small AIP system it would be just as good as a normal Kilo, but with its power generation independent of burning diesel... The reactor along with water could be used to fill hydrogen tanks and oxygen tanks and charge up the batteries... once all full you can sail out under electric power until the batteries are low and use the fuel cells to generate electricity and the NPP topping up the batteries... most of the time you will be using power for electronics and low speed propulsion which should be covered by a small NPP... batteries for high speed and fuel cell as a further backup power supply to further boost energy when needed... when hydrogen tanks are empty and the batteries are flat you can operate at very low speed and minimise electricity use and use the NPP to charge the batteries and process water into H2 and O2 so the fuel cell can be used when needed again.

    Note the NPP wont be powerful enough to run everything and run at full speed all at once, but when not running at full speed it can be used to store energy in the batteries and storing energy for the fuel cell to use later too...

    The USN will still have 3 Seawolfs & dozens of LA class SSNs, + the RN & FN SSNs for the VMF to deal with:

    The financial strain of all these vessels will hasten the demise of the current US of A... hopefully what replaces it is better... but I am not holding my breath.

    USN ships and subs no where near Russia are not Russias concern... the ones that are close will be attacked by air power and ships and subs so numerical superiority will be largely nullified...

    So by 2030, if not slightly earlier, the combined totals of Russia and China will be something like: 40-50 SSNs and at least 80 SSKs. Man... it really doesn't look good for the "New American Century." Just another reminder. As if Kinzhals and Type 055s weren't enough...

    And more importantly there is little chance of the Chinese being more annoying than the US manages every day... good old China...
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:25 am

    From attack by subs.
    There is always a sub wit a carrier group for that.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:59 am

    That is because they are normally smaller than most SSNs

    SSKs lack seaworthiness for operating in open ocean. With their slow speed, poor max depth and armament, they'll be sitting ducks for hostile real SSNs. As you know they're made for operating in chokepoints and small/shallow seas.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:41 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    That is because they are normally smaller than most SSNs

    SSKs lack seaworthiness for operating in open ocean. With their slow speed, poor max depth and armament, they'll be sitting ducks for hostile real SSNs. As you know they're made for operating in chokepoints and small/shallow seas.

    That's because of low power of batteries. With small nuclear reactor engines would be more powerfull.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:48 pm

    Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia. And below the surface you can shit on seaworthiness because there won´t be much waves. Mad

    A sub fight would take place with a speed around 10kn because otherwise you would give away your position. At that speed a Kilo/Lada is much quieter than a LA or Virginia. Also they use standard torpedo tubes which means they can use the same weapons as a SSN.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:06 pm

    1. a LA or Virginia always stays with a carrier or amphibious group. It will stay 100 or 200km in front of the group or circle it and try to find enemy subs to prevent themfrom launching missiles. Just like a MiG-31 would try to soot down a bomber before it can launch his weapons.

    2. the first LA´s were pure sub hunters. Just like the Burkes were developed for AAW and ASW (against russian bombers and subs launching missiles). At the end of the 80´s they needed a new role and put a few Tomahawks onto the ships/subs. Then the 688I was developed with 12 silos and now the LA III or Virginia class has even more silos but in a large conflict there main task would be to hunt strategic weapon carriers and defend own battle groups.

    3. Arrow compared the numbers of the Virginia with the Yassen. I replied that it isn´t that easy. You have to compare their roles, that´s why I mentioned all the possible targets (Bulava, Poseidon and Kaliber/Zircon carriers) for the Virginias. Now someone brought up the LA class and french subs and so on.

    Western block (including Australia, Japan, Sweden): roughly 180 - 190 subs (around 80 with nuclear propulsion)
    Russia: some 60 - 65 subs (around 30 - 35 nuclear)
    China: roughly 70 subs (around 25 nuclear)

    Compared to the 80´s, when Russia had 375 subs and the rest of the world (including Amiland and China) had around 550.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:14 pm

    Hole wrote:1. a LA or Virginia always stays with a carrier or amphibious group. It will stay 100 or 200km in front of the group or circle it and try to find enemy subs to prevent themfrom launching missiles. Just like a MiG-31 would try to soot down a bomber before it can launch his weapons.

    2. the first LA´s were pure sub hunters. Just like the Burkes were developed for AAW and ASW (against russian bombers and subs launching missiles). At the end of the 80´s they needed a new role and put a few Tomahawks onto the ships/subs. Then the 688I was developed with 12 silos and now the LA III or Virginia class has even more silos but in a large conflict there main task would be to hunt strategic weapon carriers and defend own battle groups.

    3. Arrow compared the numbers of the Virginia with the Yassen. I replied that it isn´t that easy. You have to compare their roles, that´s why I mentioned all the possible targets (Bulava, Poseidon and Kaliber/Zircon carriers) for the Virginias. Now someone brought up the LA class and french subs and so on.

    Western block (including Australia, Japan, Sweden): roughly 180 - 190 subs (around 80 with nuclear propulsion)
    Russia: some 60 - 65 subs (around 30 - 35 nuclear)
    China: roughly 70 subs (around 25 nuclear)

    Compared to the 80´s, when Russia had 375 subs and the rest of the world (including Amiland and China) had around 550.

    As an American, I would like to think that we do not factor the NATO allies fleet more than 20% in our ability to go on offense or defense. Countries as allies are like spouse's at the divorce time, true character comes out.....so we can more than match Russia's maximum reach in numbers and tech but where we lack at the moment is having some decent policy setters that has balls to optimize and oversee our engagements like where to fight, why we fight and what we are achieving. To me that is the problem more than any wonder weapons that Russia may throw at the world. The thing is decent strategists work with in the envelop of mutual respect for opponents and weigh their options...
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:33 pm

    Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia.

    Virginias go much deeper in reality, these are just official numbers. Russian wiki states cca 1600 ft or almost 500 m. There's a long list of reasons why a SSK can't compete with a SSN, starting from the form of hull that allows much less space for supplies, living quarters, sonar - everything is perfected for low endurance missions. Especially Paltus/Varshavyanka classes weren't designed for anti-submarine role and have a poor passive sonar.

    we can more than match Russia's maximum reach in numbers

    Democrats and GOP seem to agree that 355-ship navy is a must-have. All major navies are in the process of expansion, so the US is facing more opponents than just Russia, if it is to continue it's policy of global reach. On the other hand it's also clear that this goal is challenging, putting it mildly. And this is offtopic.
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    Post  bolshevik345 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:55 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia.

    Virginias go much deeper in reality, these are just official numbers. Russian wiki states cca 1600 ft or almost 500 m. There's a long list of reasons why a SSK can't compete with a SSN, starting from the form of hull that allows much less space for supplies, living quarters, sonar - everything is perfected for low endurance missions. Especially Paltus/Varshavyanka classes weren't designed for anti-submarine role and have a poor passive sonar.


    Doesn't this contradict the physical capabilities of the materials that US sub hulls are made of?

    Also are the Russians covering up their real SSN diving depths too?
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:57 pm

    Hole wrote:Kilos can go down to 300m. Just like Los Angeles or Virginia. And below the surface you can shit on seaworthiness because there won´t be much waves. Mad

    A sub fight would take place with a speed around 10kn because otherwise you would give away your position. At that speed a Kilo/Lada is much quieter than a LA or Virginia. Also they use standard torpedo tubes which means they can use the same weapons as a SSN.

    In oceans, I think there are powerfull streams under the waves. Electric subs will have hard time going against that. To be checked I'm not a specialist.

    Indian kilo won against a LA class in shallow waters. But if it has to recharge its batteries it will need to turn on diesel engines which produce lot of noise and go at surface where noise can't be hidden under layers of salted waters.

    High speed of SSN allows them to escape more easily.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:30 pm

    Doesn't this contradict the physical capabilities of the materials that US sub hulls are made of?

    No, modern US and Russian nuclear submarines are both made of steel, allowing them to dive to about 500-600 m.

    Also are the Russians covering up their real SSN diving depths too?

    Exact crush depths are always classified, for the obvious reasons.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:38 pm


    Purpose of Kilos and Ladas is to cover Black Sea, Baltic Sea, Mediterranean (from time to time) and SSBN bastions in White and Ohotsk Sea

    These are all relatively small locations where limited range is not a problem

    By doing this they free up nuclear sub fleet to focus strictly on oceans (Pacific, Atlantic and Arctic)

    So yes, non-nuclear subs do count a lot and they do so as a method of enabling more efficient use of nuclear subs

    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:46 pm

    I'm surprised that we're even having debates over the lack of range of SSK's, when they're primarily used for coastal defense where port fuel depots are located not so far away.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:02 pm

    SSBN bastions

    scratch Smile

    Makes me smile every time.

    Bastions are 70s tactics because Soviet submarines were too loud to go in the mid Atlantic to launch their missiles. That's not an issue with Boreis anymore.
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    Post  southpark on Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:29 pm

    Not sure why the concept is not applicable now? Care to explain? It is still a very valid strategy for Russian's or Americans to hangout in various bastions where they are relatively in close distance to their other force components. Moving around may reduce the risk with respect to somethings but it may also increase the risk in other areas...they probably use both options now if noise was ever an issue at all.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:01 am

    southpark wrote:Not sure why the concept is not applicable now? Care to explain? It is still a very valid strategy for Russian's or Americans to hangout in various bastions where they are relatively in close distance to their other force components. Moving around may reduce the risk with respect to somethings but it may also increase the risk in other areas...they probably use both options now if noise was ever an issue at all.

    I agree, location that you can effectively defend and US cannot put any listening seabed devices in has its value. Not ot mention no ASW aviation loitering over .
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:39 am

    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers

    Why?

    What a waste of money to spend on SSNs and SSGNs... what number do you think they will need that will be enough to make the US back down and stop being censored ?

    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.

    Yasens make sense since they can pop up anywhere in the world and send 40 greeting to unsuspecting opponent. Russia has access to most of markets via land or Mediterranean too. only latin America is far. New Zealnd doesnt relly cound as we all know lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:52 am

    GarryB wrote:
    That being said Russia should definitely kick SSN/SSGN construction in high gear because right now they are definitely not getting required numbers

    Why?

    What a waste of money to spend on SSNs and SSGNs... what number do you think they will need that will be enough to make the US back down and stop being censored ?

    The defence of Russia from US carrier groups is via aircraft and land based and small ship based subsonic, supersonic, and hypersonic missiles... extra SSNs or SSGNs wont change that either way, but it will be bloody expensive to buy and to operate a much larger fleet of such vessels.

    A CVN would be very very expensive too but at least it gives you global access to world markets via the ocean and protects the money invested in the surface fleet too... SSNs do not do that... well they can assist in defending a surface fleet, but would not be much good for defence... they are attack weapons... SSNs are called attack subs.


    If building SSNs is waste of money then building CVNs is flushing money down the toilet and then pouring burning napalm after it

    Besides​, Russian trade moves by land not by sea

    Which means there is nothing to protect out there unless you are also of opinion that Russia should fight wars instead of usual Mideast and Latin American deadbeats who are too chickensh*t to do it themselves?
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:07 am

    Papa, it is not a waste, how many instances do you have where a US carrier is sunk not considering WW2? It exists for reasons other than fighting the dooms day war....it serves its purpose and the debate goes on endlessly between good and bad goals that US achieves with it. You can not deny the reality....I am not denying that in a peer to peer war, it may come under threat but so does every other surface fleet. Think about like this....bullies can be taken out with one hit to their head but how many dare to take them on?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:38 am

    High speed of SSN allows them to escape more easily.

    Using speed to escape is the dumbest thing a submarine captain could possibly do... high speed means noise and revealing your position... it also means pointing your propellers at the enemy... from the enemies perspective... they know where you are and can fire a torpedo at your propeller noise and it will catch you up and sink you and you wont hear it coming because of all the noise you are making and also because your sonar can't hear behind your propeller very well anyway...

    Yasens make sense since they can pop up anywhere in the world and send 40 greeting to unsuspecting opponent. Russia has access to most of markets via land or Mediterranean too. only latin America is far. New Zealnd doesnt relly cound as we all know

    The problem for Russia is that EU is a hostile market... the Med gives access to north africa, the rest of africa is a long way away, as is central and south america and asia...

    Right now the NZ market is still western oriented and so not so lucrative for Russia... there is certainly potential for farm machinery exports, but western brands corner the market at the moment.

    If building SSNs is waste of money then building CVNs is flushing money down the toilet and then pouring burning napalm after it

    As a global entity with global reach, what exactly would SSNs add for Russia... apart from the ability to kill?

    A carrier means surface ships can access most of the world... whether it is for trade or famine relief or humanitarian aide, or just training... when was the last time Russia sent some SSNs to train with an ally?

    I am not saying don't have any, but the only time having lots of SSNs would be valuable is in WWIII fighting US and NATO forces, but we have already agreed that this is a pointless waste of money because that ends in a nil all draw anyway... fighter planes and tanks and ships will have little effect on the outcome.

    Besides​, Russian trade moves by land not by sea

    At the moment it does, but as Russia expands its trade partners and trade route options it will need to expand its navy to support that.

    Which means there is nothing to protect out there unless you are also of opinion that Russia should fight wars instead of usual Mideast and Latin American deadbeats who are too chickensh*t to do it themselves?

    But the Russia is also too chickenshit to fight NATO... but brave brave Serbia took them on... how did that go by the way... was it worth it?

    They didn't really give you much choice but at least you had the sense to say when... unlike the US in Afghanistan or Syria...

    Papa, it is not a waste, how many instances do you have where a US carrier is sunk not considering WW2?

    How often has the US met an equal force in combat where their carriers are actually at risk?

    That is like saying no B-2s have ever been shot down so they must be invincible... but they are not... nothing is.

    The point however is that a group of ships operating with the proper air cover that an aircraft carrier provides is much safer and much more powerful and more capable than the same group of ships without air cover/power.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:48 am

    southpark wrote:Papa, it is not a waste, how many instances do you have where a US carrier is sunk not considering WW2? It exists for reasons other than fighting the dooms day war....it serves its purpose and the debate goes on endlessly between good and bad goals that US achieves with it. You can not deny the reality....I am not denying that in a peer to peer war, it may come under threat but so does every other surface fleet. Think about like this....bullies can be taken out with one hit to their head but how many dare to take them on?

    and how often US was fighting with opponent on the same technological level ? US carriers weren't sunk just because if Russia did this this means WW3. And nobody else can. At least yet.
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    Post  southpark on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:48 am

    GarryB wrote:
    How often has the US met an equal force in combat where their carriers are actually at risk?

    That is like saying no B-2s have ever been shot down so they must be invincible... but they are not... nothing is.

    The point however is that a group of ships operating with the proper air cover that an aircraft carrier provides is much safer and much more powerful and more capable than the same group of ships without air cover/power.

    That is the point, the odds of them coming into direct conflict are not very high and hence the carriers pay themselves 100 times the money they cost by projecting our power (I am not going into moral or ethical aspects here) directly or indirectly. I did not deny their vulnerability but there have been proxy wars and carriers never came into any sorta threat. Taking down a carrier will mean global conflict and taking out Russian assets also carry the same risk. You have to agree our country excels at making money :-). Russia and USSR were more of defensive power and can fight back but smart countries/people do not go into wars they can't win unless their existence is on the line.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:02 am

    GarryB wrote:...But the Russia is also too chickenshit to fight NATO... but brave brave Serbia took them on... how did that go by the way... was it worth it?...

    Went better than for anyone else who tried playing since days of 13 colonies save for maybe Vietnam but given the bodycount and fact that we don't procreate like rabbits I think we take the high score overall

    And since original plan was for column of M1 Abrams' to ride into Belgrade and carve up this whole place among neighbouring countries I'd say it was definitely worth it

    If you haven't noticed we are still in the game

    As for others who played, well...

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