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    Russian Navy vs US Navy

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:38 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:James Bond was a bit before my time sorry. He's not as iconic among my generation, try Jason Bourne. pirat

    Hahaha, you know out of all the stupid s**t I hear out of you young un's, this one one has to take the Pulitzer.

    Jason Bourne? How is it possible to compare your Maaaaaaaaatt Daaaaaaaamon to such an iconic and legendary in the world of film series of movies - as James Bond?



    This is the most ludicrous rubbish I heard all week.

    OminousSpudd
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:James Bond was a bit before my time sorry. He's not as iconic among my generation, try Jason Bourne. pirat

    Hahaha, you know out of all the stupid s**t I hear out of you young un's, this one one has to take the Pulitzer.

    Jason Bourne? How is it possible to compare your Maaaaaaaaatt Daaaaaaaamon to such an iconic and legendary in the world of film series of movies - as James Bond?



    This is the most ludicrous rubbish I heard all week.

    What can I say, welcome to generation snowflake...
    Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:55 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.

    I'm neither, matey clown
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:36 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.

    I'm neither, matey clown
    Yes, well that's pretty clear. I was referring to the movie characters... I really couldn't care less.

    You'll have to excuse me from this invigorating and worthwhile conversation.
    flamming_python
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    Russian Navy vs US Navy - Page 12 Empty Russia can handily counter the US Navy with its huge stockpiles of ASMs and launch platforms for them; it doesn't really need anything else.

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:04 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:Russia wanted Mistral  and would be using them today if there wasn't sanctions.

    But when I say Mistral I mean something of it class or little bit bigger. Not specially the Mistral class. I mean an amphibious ship.

    They can carry " 16 NH90 or Tiger helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 AMX Leclerc tanks, or a 40-strong Leclerc tank battalion,[3] and 450 soldiers"

    A mig is similar in size to a NH90 helicopter. So you can have 10 helicopters and 6 Mig on it. The capacity for troop won't be changed as they are not in the same hangars. If you want to use it in the open sea for naval battle and NOT for a landing you can fit easily at least 12 Mig 29 or more if you built a bigger "Mistral" of let's say 230m, that's modularity.

    12 MiGs wont control a whole country... even a third world one.

    That means 3 CAP of four aircraft, so you can control one piece of air space 24/7 assuming no losses with three rotating teams of 4 aircraft.

    In other words you can fly over the landing area and that is about it.

    And if those 12 MiGs are operating from your Mistral class ship that means no helicopters... transport or support so those MiGs are flying combat air patrol and CAS missions...


    That's what I said. They can't control a country, they can just be used in some situations like retaking an Island or attacking some strategical targets or helping a landing by attacking deeper. Even K won't be enough to control a country ... Even US needs more than 1 to control Afghanistan ...

    British carriers allowed them to take an Island, they would never allow them to control Argentina if they wanted to.


    I hope you understood me. I'm not saying it's a magical ships that will replace carriers. I'm just saying that big amphibious ships have the place needed to give them more capabilities by adding some fighters on it (not replacing all its helicopters but a mix of them) and giving a second role for high sea deployment against other navy by having it's small number of fighter patroling and giving them better visibility. Japan navy is planning to do this with it's F-35 BTW. Even fiting one Mig is giving it a enormous advantage over a navy that is not or can't employ its aviation during a battle far from homeland.

    Imagine you confront 2 navies: 5 destroyers against 5 destroyers. They will be affected by radar range and missile range. Now you send your amphibious ships with 2 Mig-29 on it

    >> It becames   5 destroyers + 2 Mig-29 radars (300km against destroyers) + a better picture of the battlefield + fast moving vectors armed with anti ship missiles which can be carried in big numbers on the amphibious ship and rearmed AGAINST 5 destroyers.

    Even if you are facing a US carrier having 12 Mig-29 can be usefull to intercept attack by giving the position of the Harpoons to the ships and destroying some Hornets AND lunching surprise air attacks from long range.

    If you don't have the money for a big modern carrier, a cheap basic ship lunching modern fighters is really enough.

    It's cute you think 12 Migs will stand up to the Grouping of Aircraft on one of my countries carriers.....

    Russia would be to be insane to challenge us in the open ocean.

    Russia, unless we are talking about VTOL aircraft putting any aircraft on a ship like this, is stupid.

    That also removes the Choppers which is the entire reason the ships are built.

    Sorry your logic makes no sense here, these ships do not need fighters and that would be beyond counter-productive for them. End of the day what you think is a good idea is a silly idea.

    WW2 escort carriers had on average 30 plus planes.

    Pre WW2 Escort carriers were beyond useless in the war with their maybe eight planes at best.

    Russia can handily counter the US Navy with its huge stockpiles of ASMs and launch platforms for them; it doesn't really need anything else.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:28 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:six Migs....really that would a horrid idea.

    I am sorry any third world rate nation can take down six fighters with ZERO hassle.

    Modern day ships will out range the Migs, a half dozen migs would not be able to provide any kind of real cover. They would be slight annoyances at best.

    Buddy...six goddam migs (which honestly is a moderate number going by your counts) would under no circumstances be able to provide Air cover against F-18's in the volume they would have to deal with.

    Brits lost more ships in the War but okay?.

    Close to their shores no? if we caught them in the open ocean those fleets would be destroyed, sorry my countries navy is number 1. We would take loss sure but we would sink MUCH more ships then we would lose.

    Sorry, your idea is a poor one and only on the armchair does it make any kind of sense. If Russia thought this was a viable idea they would have done it. Please do not act like they have not considered it. The Juan Carlos was offered to the Russians along with the Mistral but the Ruskies denied it.

    That alone tells me all I need to know.

    If Russia faces US navy they sure won't fight on open seas. But that's not an argument at all. The world isn't thinking about US anytime they do something. I suggested an idea which in my opinion would be good.

    Brits reconquired the Island ... BTW they lost their ships against two Super Etandard armed with 2 exocets Argentinians didn't need 10 carriers for that.

    Juan Carlos can't fit Migs just VSTOL fighters as it ski jump would be on the landing area of the mig which is dangerous. They would have an oversized ship without the fighters on it. Harriers are British.



    You navy is not number 1 at all. You oblige other countries to give you all the support you need and more you oblige them to fight for you. What would you do against china or Russia without Japan, corea, australia and EU ? Nothing. Nor you would have done anything in Afghanistan or Irak.

    Look how french Rafales destroyed your F-16 in exercices, how an indian Kilo class destroyed a Los angeles class in exercices, how french nuc subs destroyed a carrier group in exercices, how israeli F-16/15 destroyed your F-18 in exercices, how Kornets destroyed Abrams, how a Phalanx shot on a friendly ship during training ... You, US in general,  should stop thinking that your untouchable. There were much powerfull empires during their time than you are today that ended very badly.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:33 pm

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:six Migs....really that would a horrid idea.

    I am sorry any third world rate nation can take down six fighters with ZERO hassle.

    Modern day ships will out range the Migs, a half dozen migs would not be able to provide any kind of real cover. They would be slight annoyances at best.

    Buddy...six goddam migs (which honestly is a moderate number going by your counts) would under no circumstances be able to provide Air cover against F-18's in the volume they would have to deal with.

    Brits lost more ships in the War but okay?.

    Close to their shores no? if we caught them in the open ocean those fleets would be destroyed, sorry my countries navy is number 1. We would take loss sure but we would sink MUCH more ships then we would lose.

    Sorry, your idea is a poor one and only on the armchair does it make any kind of sense. If Russia thought this was a viable idea they would have done it. Please do not act like they have not considered it. The Juan Carlos was offered to the Russians along with the Mistral but the Ruskies denied it.

    That alone tells me all I need to know.

    If Russia faces US navy they sure won't fight on open seas. But that's not an argument at all. The world isn't thinking about US anytime they do something. I suggested an idea which in my opinion would be good.

    Brits reconquired the Island ... BTW they lost their ships against two Super Etandard armed with 2 exocets Argentinians didn't need 10 carriers for that.

    Juan Carlos can't fit Migs just VSTOL fighters as it ski jump would be on the landing area of the mig which is dangerous. They would have an oversized ship without the fighters on it. Harriers are British.



    You navy is not number 1 at all. You oblige other countries to give you all the support you need and more you oblige them to fight for you. What would you do against china or Russia without Japan, corea, australia and EU ? Nothing. Nor you would have done anything in Afghanistan or Irak.

    Look how french Rafales destroyed your F-16 in exercices, how an indian Kilo class destroyed a Los angeles class in exercices, how french nuc subs destroyed a carrier group in exercices, how israeli F-16/15 destroyed your F-18 in exercices, how Kornets destroyed Abrams, how a Phalanx shot on a friendly ship during training ... You, US in general,  should stop thinking that your untouchable. There were much powerfull empires during their time than you are today that ended very badly.

    holy shit, that was awesome! Love your post.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:37 am

    flamming_python wrote:Russia can handily counter the US Navy with its huge stockpiles of ASMs and launch platforms for them; it doesn't really need anything else.

    Bingo!! With the imminent IOC of hypersonic AShMs, the entire calculus of Capital ship Vs Missile is changing, and probably for good.  The Soviets attempted to neutralise heavy surface ships with mass AShM attack, but in those days the technology wasn't fully up to the job.  Their missiles were certainly destructive, with the potential for a mission-kill on a USN CVN with just a single hit, but they were large and very heavy, requiring large capital ships or huge SSGNs to carry them in significant numbers, their ranges were such that the attacking platform was within range of carrier aviation, and they relied on external target location and mid-course corrections to achieve their range potential.  Electronics and sensors were also relatively cumbersome, limiting reliability and scope for intelligent attack profiles and autonomous target selection/prioritisation (though P-1000/P-700s did implement successful wolf-pack functionality) .

    The situation now is radically different.  Satellites can readily detect capital ships and relay co-ords to firing platforms, and provide course corrections on route.  Advances in navigation allow missiles to proceed under GPS or inertial guidance until they can locate their own targets with multiple sensors types, and improvements in electronics allow smaller missiles to replicate the wolfpack attack modes of their larger earlier cousins.  Improvements in propulsion and fuel efficiency allow greater ranges, particularly for subsonic cruise missiles with efficient turbofans, and the use of a smaller high-supersonic terminal attack stage (like the anti-ship Kalibres) will minimise the chance of interception in the final attack run. Finally, smaller missiles allow their carriers to pack more rounds into a given tonnage, allowing significant attack potential from even small corvette-sized vessels, and even larger salvos from large vessels (eg 72x missiles from an upgraded Pr949AM)

    Now add hypersonics and/or low RCS stealth.....

    These developments are resulting in a paradigm shift in the old Defence Vs Offence equation.  Big ships are increasingly vulnerable to small, fast, evasive and intelligent AShMs, and hypersonics will greatly reduce the window of opportunity for a defense system to react and kill an incoming threat.  Its conceptually clear that trying to protect a large, slow capital ship like a CVN against missile attack is FAR more difficult than attacking it, and as missile technologies improve, the relative difficulty can only increase in the missiles favour.  

    Can this trend be reversed?  IMHO its VERY doubtful.  Much hyped defensive technologies using lasers and rail-guns are just wet-dream fantasies of USN fanboi idiots. Lasers are potentially useful against single missiles but the beam requires adequate time on target to destroy it by localised heating, and the use of heat resistant materials like ceramic claddings in combination with high-supersonic/hypersonic attack speeds will make such VERY difficult to achieve in a real world setting.  Rail guns are a pointless concept as their firing rates are going to be very low, and being a kinetic kill weapon, their efficacy is utterly dependent upon the accuracy of the firing solution and repeatability of projectile ballistics.  It would be like trying to shoot a bullet out of the sky with another smaller bullet....  Good luck with that....

    Final proof of this thesis is that there is a palpable sense of panic in the USN that their vast and expensive CBGs may be rendered obsolete by a proliferation of fast, small, intelligent AShMs that cannot be intercepted by their 70s-era AEGIS system, and for which "new technologies" are less than promising.  I'm happy with that as the USNs loss is the multipolar worlds gain...

    Hmmm... I didn't even mention AShBMs.... theatre-range ballistic terminally-guided anti-ship ordnance... yummy yummy.....

    russia russia russia russia russia russia russia


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
    OminousSpudd
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:42 am

    As a general rule I think it is quite obvious that Russia would avoid any open-water scenarios when talking USN vs. RuN, even if only due to the sheer number of surface vessels the US can employ. However, it is also quite obvious that Russia has dedicated much of its time to countering the US numerical advantage via the development of coastal defenses such as Bastion which provide a large umbrella of protection for Russian vessels to operate within. While having a potential 96 AShMs available is all well and good for AB DDGs, a certain problem presents itself when considering the vulnerability of the now legacy-tier Harpoon, particularly their ToT. Russia/USSR has/had long been aware of this vulnerability, and has developed comprehensive defensive suites, and offensive capabilities in the form of supersonic and now hypersonic AShMs to exploit it. Little, mobile, and hard-hitting seems to be the Russian doctrine at the moment, despite the potential of Lider-class. To me, this seems logical. I think Russia intends to keep a tactical edge as well, unconventional strategy such as the self-contained Klub-K really could make quite a difference in how a modern sea battle is fought.

    I recall an event that happened during USN-RNZN drills, where one of our ANZAC-class essentially terminated multiple US vessels simply by exploiting the geography of a nearby island and operating outside of the RNZN's mandated strategy of the drill. Impressive for a ship with next to no offensive capabilities aside from torpedoes. The Americans claimed we cheated.

    One may be reminded of prior military adventures that ended in failure when simple mass and traditional doctrine met with entirely unconventional enemies. Obviously, the Blitzkrieg as an example, although not a doctrine per-se but simply the result of Germany embracing mobility and communications to overcome traditional defenses. Imperial Russia's use of counter trench warfare e.g. tunneling to the enemy, allowed for quick gains during the early days of WWI. Gaius Marius during Roman times etc.

    EDIT: Gazza beat me to the chase.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:55 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:While having a potential 96 AShMs available is all well and good for AB DDGs

    Well, only if the AB doesn't carry any land attack rounds, and chooses not to carry SAMs.... (!!)

    OminousSpudd wrote:The Americans claimed we cheated.

    Yep, the US does like to ensure a positive outcome by hamstringing the "other" side during exercises. Their childish cries of outrage when a "vassal" nation dares to think outside the (imposed) limitations is like music to my ears! Very Happy

    Finally, unconventional tactics can be game-winners, but can also be abject failures. Hannibal crossing the Alps with Elephants, or Iran's attempt to cross the Hawr Al Hawiza marsh with pontoons were creative but ultimately disastrous.
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    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:21 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Well, only if the AB doesn't carry any land attack rounds, and chooses not to carry SAMs.... (!!)
    Hence why I said potential. Having 96 Harpoons isn't going to help much against land-based defenses either. All-in-all, operating near Russian coastal waters will be a tad hair-raising, considering the very Russian approach of not putting all eggs in one basket. Cool

    Big_Gazza wrote: Finally, unconventional tactics can be game-winners, but can also be abject failures.  Hannibal crossing the Alps with Elephants, or Iran's attempt to cross the Hawr Al Hawiza marsh with pontoons were creative but ultimately disastrous.
    Agreed, one can find just as many strategic disasters as successes, I was cherry picking. Hannibal's elephants failed, but it was Carthage bureaucracy that called him home and stopped him in his tracks. One could also say it was the unconventional Roman strategy of attacking the enemy at home rather than committing all forces to the defending of their territory that ultimately brought defeat to Hannibal. Very Happy
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:43 am

    ok you all have gone off-topic so discussion continues here
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:six Migs....really that would a horrid idea.

    I am sorry any third world rate nation can take down six fighters with ZERO hassle.

    Modern day ships will out range the Migs, a half dozen migs would not be able to provide any kind of real cover. They would be slight annoyances at best.

    Buddy...six goddam migs (which honestly is a moderate number going by your counts) would under no circumstances be able to provide Air cover against F-18's in the volume they would have to deal with.

    Brits lost more ships in the War but okay?.

    Close to their shores no? if we caught them in the open ocean those fleets would be destroyed, sorry my countries navy is number 1. We would take loss sure but we would sink MUCH more ships then we would lose.

    Sorry, your idea is a poor one and only on the armchair does it make any kind of sense. If Russia thought this was a viable idea they would have done it. Please do not act like they have not considered it. The Juan Carlos was offered to the Russians along with the Mistral but the Ruskies denied it.

    That alone tells me all I need to know.

    If Russia faces US navy they sure won't fight on open seas. But that's not an argument at all. The world isn't thinking about US anytime they do something. I suggested an idea which in my opinion would be good.

    Brits reconquired the Island ... BTW they lost their ships against two Super Etandard armed with 2 exocets Argentinians didn't need 10 carriers for that.

    Juan Carlos can't fit Migs just VSTOL fighters as it ski jump would be on the landing area of the mig which is dangerous. They would have an oversized ship without the fighters on it. Harriers are British.



    You navy is not number 1 at all. You oblige other countries to give you all the support you need and more you oblige them to fight for you. What would you do against china or Russia without Japan, corea, australia and EU ? Nothing. Nor you would have done anything in Afghanistan or Irak.

    Look how french Rafales destroyed your F-16 in exercices, how an indian Kilo class destroyed a Los angeles class in exercices, how french nuc subs destroyed a carrier group in exercices, how israeli F-16/15 destroyed your F-18 in exercices, how Kornets destroyed Abrams, how a Phalanx shot on a friendly ship during training ... You, US in general,  should stop thinking that your untouchable. There were much powerfull empires during their time than you are today that ended very badly.

    Lets make a list of words you are trying to put in my mouth

    Rafales ARE much better than F-16's. I never claimed the F-16 was some super amazing aircraft, did I?.

    When did I say you need ten aircraft carriers to sink navy ships? That has nothing to do with what I said?. I said the brits lost more warships and they would have lost a shit ton more if Argentina had half decent technology the only thing that saved those carriers was the lack of technology.

    When did I say my navy was number one in all things? I said it is number one yes and it is. If you doubt that then your are blinded by fanboyism.

    When did I say my navy could not be touched? I said we would take losses, just we would kill more ships in return. It's cute you say this considering my remarks about the Zirzon and how I say Hypersonic ship missiles render basic Defense pointless.

    Now you try and put words in my mouth again and I will ignore you in the future, I am all for an honest chat not some trying to pull what you are.

    Now onto your other points.

    F-18's were designed to strike ground targets and ships, Carrier-based aircraft are not better than dedicated Air Sup fighters for clear reasons that Multi-role comes with a cost.

    Put you SU-33's against an F-18 see how that goes, has for the Mig-29 I'll wait and see I have yet to see any real capable action from it. It's Track record in syria proved pretty shitty so far.

    Electric subs are virtually noiseless machines and Nuclear subs aren't that Los Angelos was also an older one not a new block.

    The french sub merely locked on and hit a button (a simulated hit), that torpedo would not have hit if it was fired.

    True but they could have easyily redesigned it front some with little hassle if they wanted to turn it into a semi carrier. So your point is quite moot here.

    What would we do against Russia? depends is the Russian fleet near their coast? in which case nothing.

    If we caught them on open ocean goodbye Russian fleet. China would stand a more fair chance really then Russia would on the open ocean but it would still be the death of them also.

    Near their coast not much.

    Your idea is not good has you cannot stick fighters on an helio carrier without basically redesigning the entire ship and harming it's Ability to land troops. so no sorry no offense but your idea is silly and shows a lack of knowledge. Russia Navy doesn't think it's a good idea, US navy doesn't Chinese doesn't.

    So yes excuse me if I do not agree when professionals do not also.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:36 pm

    Well, read again the discussion and you will see that I didn't say they should build them to face US carriers (I actually said it won't be usefull to face it just to have a better picture of the air battlefield and could intercept harpoons and hornet coming too close) ... You were the first one to start to put words in my mouth ...


    Till you win a war by yourself against anything other than farmers with Ak-47 (from the vietnam war till today you oponents are just using this weapon BTW) you won't be number 1 in anything. And in the middle of the pacific without your foreign bases US navy won't be that powerfull. 1 Torpedo or 1 missile in your carrier and its destroyed because of the ammunition it carries and all the jetfuel. Bye Bye hornets then russian destroyers can shot at your destroyers all day, you totaly lack antiship missiles on them. Few harpoons won't damage Ru Navy.


    Professional agree with it because Thai navy, spanish navy, English navy, Japanese navy, corean navy used or use or will use similar ships. Of course if you have a budget of more than 100 billion you will go for a true carrier but if you are limited in money.


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