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    US-Indian defense ties

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    GarryB
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:21 am

    but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here

    I watched it again, and I still don't see where he said there was anything wrong with the Su-30.

    He said they had serious problems identifying targets... but that is because they were not using their radars, they were relying on AWACS aircraft.

    Remember an AWACS aircraft is not just a radar in the air... it is both airborne Warning and CONTROL.

    This means that the guys in the AWACS should be detecting targets and directing friendly fighters to those targets.

    In other words they were operating in a situation where the AWACS they were operating with was no compatible with their datalink system.

    If a group of USAF aircraft went to a similar exercise in India they would find that they could not communicate with the AWACS there either and would be in the same position as the Indian pilots in having to verbally communicate with the AWACS and the extra time that takes would mean they would lose aircraft and then have to make the choice of kill or be killed. The Indians chose to kill, and I rather suspect the US pilots in the same situation would take the same decision.

    They didn't say the Russian datalink equipment was bad, they said it was not compatible with the NATO standard Link 16 system.

    His description of AESA radar was a bit simplistic too. The PESA fitted to the Indian aircraft is a very good radar.


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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:23 am


    ok i dont know how u missed this

    1: he said about the engines not working properly in fog ,which takes atleast 1 min to launch 6 to 7 planes. he said russian engines are not reliable as american engines
    2: he said about the vector thrust when u use that in su30mki and try to go right the plane starts to fall cuz of drag and cant climb ..
    3: he said su30 can do 22 degree turn but the raptor will do 28 degree turn and will take out the su30 cuz su30 is a big plane with big radar cross section ..

    also he mentioned indians wanted to be a part of the coalition ,, this i know for sure ,india will never be a part of any millitary alliance with usa .

    the guy who is speaking is terrance fornof he is experienced F15 strike eagle pilot .he was also the director of R & T and also a member of the nevada national guard .

    so how serious should we take his comments ???

    the reason i am worried is cuz su30 mki is the backbone of the IAF now and for many yrs to come , pakfa and su35 will take yrs to come to india

    we have to deal with the F15 and J17 fighters from pakistan and china ..
    and when the PakFa comes we dont know how it will do against the J20 ,

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:06 pm

    The video I saw was about 9 minutes long, is there a longer version?

    1: he said about the engines not working properly in fog ,which takes atleast 1 min to launch 6 to 7 planes. he said russian engines are not reliable as american engines

    What?

    That is BS... those engines work during a tail slide manouver where the air around the aircraft is flowing BACKWARDS, and you believe him when he says their engines are not reliable?

    2: he said about the vector thrust when u use that in su30mki and try to go right the plane starts to fall cuz of drag and cant climb ..

    Is this guy retarded?

    A dogfight is a gun fight with weapons fixed forward... the fastest aircraft to turn their weapons on their enemies aircraft and fire is most likely to live. Thrust vectoring allows you to point your nose and get the first shot without any fear of a stall. The F-22 has thrust vectoring too, while the F-15 pilot is pulling back on the stick but keeping his eye on his altitude and air speed so he doesn't stall and lose control and not be able to control where his nose/weapons/sensors are pointing. That is why they used to say speed is life, because in a fighter if you stall you are a sitting duck till you recover energy and speed to manouver again. For aircraft with thrust vectoring that is not an issue because you can always control your nose even in a super stall.

    3: he said su30 can do 22 degree turn but the raptor will do 28 degree turn and will take out the su30 cuz su30 is a big plane with big radar cross section ..

    Su-30 has a helmet mounted sight and high off boresight missiles and will be able to fire first... RCS does not effect the performance of IR guided missiles... and when that F-22 puts on its after burners for the dogfight it will be an even easier target...

    Also... a 22 degree per second turn rate is for conventional flight aircraft without thrust vectoring... with thrust vectoring the turn rate is irrelevant because the pilot can simply pull back on the stick and turn the nose faster.

    If you are flying an F-15 without TVC engines and you have a limit of 25 degrees per second turn rate, that means that if you try to pull a 26 degrees per second turn the plane will lose control and stall and you will not be turning at 25 degrees per second anymore... you will be falling.

    In a plane with thrust vector control engines the aircraft wont stall if you pull the nose round further... the aircraft wont be turning at 35 degrees per second or more... you will still be changing direction at 25 degrees per second... it is just that your nose will not be pointing where you are flying. You wont be in a stall, you will have control of the nose of the aircraft and you can line up that plane that is out turning you by a few degrees per second but as he is still in your field of view it doesn't matter because you don't need to point your nose directly at the enemy plane to target and shoot them down... that is why in tests the Mig-29 beat the F-16 every time in 1991 during tests even though it outmanouvered the Mig 62% of the time... it didn't matter cause it was already dead.

    It is not really a surprise... the whole point of the F-22 is to hit from high altitude and long range... it is a sniper. If it gets into a knife fight even if it shoots down the enemy aircraft there is a good chance that enemy aircraft could have already seen them and launched a missile... and if that missile hits that means you are trading aircraft one for one... if that enemy aircraft is a Mig-21-98 with a big jamming pod and RVV-MD missiles or even 9M100 Morfei missiles then the F-22 is in real trouble because there are thousands of mig-21s and the Mig-21-98 is not an expensive upgrade...

    also he mentioned indians wanted to be a part of the coalition ,, this i know for sure ,india will never be a part of any millitary alliance with usa .

    I rather suspect they will not be joining US forces on their invasion of Iran or North Korea, I rather suspect they were more interested in testing themselves to work out what needs work and where they are doing well.

    Plus it is a chance to show off their new planes.

    the guy who is speaking is terrance fornof he is experienced F15 strike eagle pilot .he was also the director of R & T and also a member of the nevada national guard .

    so how serious should we take his comments ???

    Well consider him an expert in US equipment and an outside observer of Indian aircraft/pilots.

    My brother was in the Army for 20 odd years but he didn't know the L7 LMGs his unit used were Belgian FN Minimis.

    Doesn't make him stupid... for his role in the military all he needed to know was they were L7s... they were just a tool and that was the name of that tool within our military.

    Just because this guy is a pilot it does not mean he is an expert on Russian fighter aircraft.

    the reason i am worried is cuz su30 mki is the backbone of the IAF now and for many yrs to come , pakfa and su35 will take yrs to come to india

    Are you expecting combat with the US any time soon?

    The Su-30MKI is plenty good enough for any role India might need it for, and also remember that they are getting upgrades too. It is only a matter of time before they get AESA radars and improved engines that will work in the rain.

    ...my god... they dont' work in fog!!! I guess India has perfect conditions with no dust or hot and high requirements so they don't need reliable engines... note I am being sarcastic BTW. Twisted Evil

    I remember the British briefings to pilots in the Pacific theatre was that japanese planes are made of rice paper so they can't fly them in the rain...

    I seem to remember these planes that can't fly in fog kicked American ass the previous exercise... how green were they?

    we have to deal with the F15 and J17 fighters from pakistan and china ..

    How many F-15s have Pakistan got?

    Relations with Pakistan and the US have soured recently, so if they haven't got them now... I rather doubt they will get them.

    Even still based on the results of the exercise the Su-30MKI beats the F-15, and the improved models should do even better... assuming Indian air defence networks are compatible with Russian datalinks...

    and when the PakFa comes we dont know how it will do against the J20 ,

    Hope you never have to find out. Wink


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:00 pm



    check that video at 1:11 mins he starts talking about the engines
    Code:
    youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU

    from 5:36 min he says how F15 dominated . and at 7 min he talks about the thrust vectoring ,

    and also india is not going to war with usa ..but we have 2 hostile countries china and pak

    Pakistan has around 50-60 F16 and i think around 26 f16 were recently upgraded . so yes india see that as a threat but we r counting on the Su-30 cuz there could be a war with pakistan very soon .

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:12 pm

    i really hope u guys dont mind me asking all these questions dunno

    sry about that

    GarryB
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:54 am

    check that video at 1:11 mins he starts talking about the engines

    Hahahahahaha.... Sorry... he didn't say FOG, he said FOD... Foreign Object Damage.

    In other words stones and rocks and rubbish getting sucked into the air intake during takeoff and landing that damages the engines.

    The Su-27 series has a set of grids that fold down to prevent FOD during takeoff and landing.

    Keep your runways clear and it is not a problem.

    The problem with the engines is easily solved... buy the technology from Russia and licence produce them in India.

    Who was talking before about the US keeping their airstrips clean and the Russians and Indians having dirty runways?

    Using the grids the Russian planes take off from rough airstrips... pretty sure the F-15s don't do that.


    from 5:36 min he says how F15 dominated . and at 7 min he talks about the thrust vectoring ,

    Remember the lack of datalink?

    Also he talks about the Su-30s turning and dropping... what he doesn't talk about is that that pilot could just pull really hard of the stick with 120 degrees of angle of attack and turn to face the following threat and fire an R-73 Archer right back into the trailing aircrafts face... the R-73 has thrust vectoring propulsion and can be fired while the aircraft is in effect flying backwards... no American plane can do that.

    Pakistan has around 50-60 F16 and i think around 26 f16 were recently upgraded . so yes india see that as a threat but we r counting on the Su-30 cuz there could be a war with pakistan very soon .

    I rather doubt that the Pakistan AF has pilots as well trained as the US, and most of the time the Su-30 will fire medium and long range BVR missiles, so the F-15s and F-16s have to survive them first before they can think about dogfights with Flankers.

    I would also suggest actually getting on the tail of an Su-30 would be a trick in itself.

    i really hope u guys dont mind me asking all these questions

    No problem... Smile


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:07 am



    Hahahahahaha.... Sorry... he didn't say FOG, he said FOD... Foreign Object Damage.

    In other words stones and rocks and rubbish getting sucked into the air intake during takeoff and landing that damages the engines.

    The Su-27 series has a set of grids that fold down to prevent FOD during takeoff and landing.

    Keep your runways clear and it is not a problem.

    The problem with the engines is easily solved... buy the technology from Russia and licence produce them in India.

    Who was talking before about the US keeping their airstrips clean and the Russians and Indians having dirty runways?

    Using the grids the Russian planes take off from rough airstrips... pretty sure the F-15s don't do that.

    thanks i learned something new LOL FOG and FOD hahahahaa i am such a nub Very Happy

    i have to conclude that sucker who gave that speach knows nothing about Su30 ..


    Thanks for ur replies respekt

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:14 am

    Smile

    I wouldn't say he knows nothing about the Su-30 but his judgement is pretty clouded.

    He is hardly going to say all the US aircraft are crap... what he actually was saying was that the Su-30 was very good, and when the India pilots learn to use them properly they will be more capable than F-15/F-16 type western aircraft... but of course he can then say they have the F-22 so they are safe.

    The problem for him is that of course Indian pilots will get better and better, and when they are getting into 5th gen stealth fighters of their own his mates at NATO are in real trouble... but only if they want to pick a fight with Russia or China.

    His comments about planes taking off every minute is interesting too... suggests that the western aircraft they were playing with have short legs.

    He was talking about getting everyone into the air quickly so they could go and play... they sent the Flankers up first because they have enormous endurance... I rather suspect they were flying their own planes light... in other words without full fuel so they were lighter and more manouverable. The problem there is that if they took to long to all get airborne the first up will be too low on fuel to do the exercise properly.

    Their solution was clearly to send the Indians up first, and then get their own aircraft into the air quickly and then go an exercise.

    Note I am not sure about Indian air fields but Russian airfields tend to be enormous and it is normal for aircraft to take off two or three at a time (side by side) to get planes up quickly for emergencies.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Is Russia's Defense industry going to lose its stake in india market ?

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:22 pm

    US promises to supply high-end military tech, demolish all barriers

    The US now wants to do a Russia on India. Eager to displace Russia as India’s largest defence supplier, the US is promising to treat India on par with its closest allies like the UK and Australia in terms of providing cutting-edge military technology.

    Ahead of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s trip to Washington and New York next week, visiting US deputy secretary of defence Ashton B Carter held a series of meetings with national security advisor (NSA) Shiv Shankar Menon, foreign secretary Sujatha Singh and defence secretary R K Mathur to push for several co-production and co-development military projects as a cornerstone to the bilateral strategic partnership.

    From offering joint manufacturing facilities for the next-generation of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles to C-130J “Super Hercules” aircraft, Carter said the US was looking to partner with India across “the entire spectrum” of defence capabilities with “no boundaries” being set.

    “This is the new way for India and US. We do not have the history that Russia does. We are trying to replicate it,” he said, referring to Indo-Russian joint ventures like the one manufacturing BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

    The hard-sell comes in the backdrop of India poised to spend well over $100 billion on acquiring arms over the next decade. Having already inked Indian defence contracts worth over $8 billion in recent years, the US is now also set to bag another four deals worth almost $5 billion in the current fiscal.

    But none of the four deals for six more C-130J aircraft, 22 Apache attack helicopters, 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers will actually be inked when the PM meets President Barack Obama on September 27.

    The Indian defence establishment is yet to fully shed its lingering suspicions about the US being a reliable long-term, high-end defence supplier, given its propensity to impose sanctions and stringent export control laws.

    But Carter said all such “misconceptions” were history now. The US is “working around” foundational military pacts like CISMOA (communication interoperability and security memorandum agreement), which India is reluctant to ink, and demolishing all bureaucratic hurdles through the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative. While Carter heads it for the US, Menon is his interlocutor from India. “People have to be creative on both sides to do what has not been done before,” he said.


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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:48 am

    C-130J?

    India would be rather better off buying An-70s from the Ukraine... a much better aircraft.

    India can buy all it wants from the US... but lets hope they never need to use any of that stuff because getting US congress approval takes time they might not have.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:35 am

    GarryB wrote:C-130J?

    India would be rather better off buying An-70s from the Ukraine... a much better aircraft.

    India can buy all it wants from the US... but lets hope they never need to use any of that stuff because getting US congress approval takes time they might not have.
    these issues were raised and Ashton B Carter said india will get all clearence before any deals are made .. that means no strings attached

    but i really doubt that ,, i am vary of thier intentions Neutral 

    but i want to see how russian responds ....

    russia will be handing over the AC to india soon ... india is going to sign the t90 tanks deal also with russia .which has been cleared ...
    Russia has raised the price i think for the Pak-fa project .so dont know when that would be signed ....all in all this yr has been good for russia's image in india

    1: russia delivered all the 3 warships
    2:kundakulam plant is operational now
    3:Vikramaditya will be handed over soon ...
    4:upgraded mig-29 were handed over to india this Yr too

    So this was really a good yr russia 

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:38 am

    these issues were raised and Ashton B Carter said india will get all clearence before any deals are made .. that means no strings attached
    And how can a deputy director of defence make such promises?

    A republican congress would love to embarrass the democrat president by screwing india on this... they would do it for fun.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:33 am

    Wonder what the result of MRCA would had been, if the US/LM pitted F-35 instead of F-16 Bk. 60? From what I know, IAF was (right from the start) hell bent on procuring Rafales as their MCA bird.


    Anyway, just like HAL and Sukhoi are partnering to develop an all weather heavy class 5th gen fighter, similarly HAL should also form a partnership with Mig to jointly develop and produce a 5th gen MCA.


    Su-30MKI has been a very successful programme for both Russians as well as Indians. Time to extend our partnership to the next level. The Yanks can continue to fume, Thank You lol1



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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:40 pm

    maybe BRICS should have their own F-35- the russkies work on their own LMFS and then FGFA-ize with china, india, brazil,...

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:02 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:maybe BRICS should have their own F-35- the russkies work on their own LMFS and then FGFA-ize with china, india, brazil,...
    China is already running two 5th gen fighter programmes. So it won't join most probably. Yes, Brazil looks like a good option if it wants to join in this programme.

    But, I think Russia should now start to focus seriously on the LMF programme, since PAK-FA project is now very close to completion.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:59 am

    China is already running two 5th gen fighter programmes. So it won't join most probably. Yes, Brazil looks like a good option if it wants to join in this programme.

    One of the two Chinese stealth aircraft looks to me like the Mig MFI, and I suspect these aircraft will end up being -5th gen rather than 5th gen... with engine technology letting them down.

    I seem to remember at one stage some one claimed the US offered the F-35, but on cost alone it was ruled out, plus as there was no stealth requirement the F-35 loses its main useful feature.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:36 am

    Ever since USA has offered India the sale of F-35s, a lot of American stooges back home want India to forlorn the Russian JV for the 5th gen FGFA!

    Hope better sense prevails, and the next government realises that we CAN NOT trust the Amnericans under any condition. And Russia is our ONLY trust-worthy friend all across the globe. Amen!

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:40 am

    Leaving politics aside

    Who the hell would be crazy enough to replace a platform like the FGFA with a dud like the F-35A?

    The PAK-FA already rapes it on every parameter and the FGFA will be even more overwhelming.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:05 am

    More importantly if India got F-35 they would get what they are given and would have no input at all.

    At least with the T-50 they will have complete say on the avionics and other aspects to the point where they could radically change the design if they wanted to. The US wont even let the UK integrate Brimstone and so the Brits basically have to hand over the whole system to the US for the US to integrate it.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:06 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Leaving politics aside
    But arms and politics go side by side.

    Who the hell would be crazy enough to replace a platform like the FGFA with a dud like the F-35A?
    Current Indan government is puppet of Uncle Sam.

    The PAK-FA already rapes it on every parameter and the FGFA will be even more overwhelming.
    lol! You made my day with this comment. Very Happy



    Last edited by Indian Flanker on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    The PAK-FA already rapes it on every parameter and the FGFA will be even more overwhelming.
    of course the indian version would be even better in the rapey-rapey aspects. hehe

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:49 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    The PAK-FA already rapes it on every parameter and the FGFA will be even more overwhelming.
    of course the indian version would be even better in the rapey-rapey aspects. hehe

    ...Wow that's a low blow lol!

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:56 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    ...Wow that's a low blow lol!
    sorry if anyone was offended- smiley tabs arent working for me.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:25 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    The PAK-FA already rapes it on every parameter and the FGFA will be even more overwhelming.
    of course the indian version would be even better in the rapey-rapey aspects. hehe

    Oh lawd jesus.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:02 am

    I think he meant it would be better endowed and therefore... well you can work it out...


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