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    SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

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    Austin

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:41 pm

    Seems like Russian Air Defence Radars and SAM will have new challenges in decades ahead

    SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Reveled

    http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/01/sr-72-unveiled/#.UnPKTRD9Uep

    www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_11_01_2013_p0-632731.xml&p=1
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    Viktor

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Viktor on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:54 pm

    Austin wrote:Seems like Russian Air Defence Radars and SAM will have new challenges in decades ahead

    SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Reveled

    http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/01/sr-72-unveiled/#.UnPKTRD9Uep

    www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_11_01_2013_p0-632731.xml&p=1
    And thats why I think its time for MIG-32 Very Happy
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:44 pm

    And that's why S-500 is being developed.
    And that's why PVO and space forces have been merged.

    The future of strategic aviation has been clear for a while: Hypersonic bombers, hypersonic missiles, hypersonic everything. Stealth will still be there...but in the back seat.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:47 pm

    It will be years before this thing becomes reality, while Russia and India are working together as of now on Hypersonic engines, which can be applied to SAM technology once built. Radar wouldnt have much problem picking it up if they increase the transmission rate between radar and control, to the launchers. The radar will just have to respond quicker.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:52 pm

    Austin wrote:Seems like Russian Air Defence Radars and SAM will have new challenges in decades ahead

    SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Reveled

    http://theaviationist.com/2013/11/01/sr-72-unveiled/#.UnPKTRD9Uep

    www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_11_01_2013_p0-632731.xml&p=1


    Aviationweek's level of information's control and accuracy has gone truly down vertically in the latest years . Rolling Eyes 

    That for not say that ,some decades ago, "smoke and mirror" capabilities of US operatives was without any doubt immensely better than today.......in particular when the aim was to divert or conceal the true direction followed in the most strategically important military development programs........what a shame Mad .

    Austin

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:54 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Aviationweek's level of information's control and accuracy has gone truly down vertically in the latest years . Rolling Eyes 

    That for not say that ,some decades ago, "smoke and mirror" capabilities of US operatives was without any doubt immensely better than today.......in particular when the aim was to divert or conceal the true direction followed in the most strategically important military development programs........what a shame Mad .      
    I dont get what you say Mindstorm.

    AW&ST latest issue that covers US Hypersonic Program

    http://in.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416284053&e=true
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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:52 am

    Comments like "Noteworthy, the shape and operational speed of the U.S. next generation strike bomber is much different from Russia’s next generation stealth strategic bomber PAK-DA concept."

    Says it all...

    Shape and speed are directly related if you want to fly at very low speed then a biplane layout is actually pretty good, high subsonic speed requires a swept wing... hypersonic speed works best with a small wing and a lifting body shape... which means you can say that a mach 6 strike bomber made in the US will not look like a flying wing subsonic bomber made in Russia but keep in mind that we don't actually know what the Russian aircraft even looks like but the words stealthy and subsonic suggest they will not look like a mach 6 aircraft...

    The real question is... are the Americans going to be able to afford such an aircraft?

    Mach 6 is not that fast and even Russian SAMs from the 1970s could bring such targets down... speed is certainly a virtue but it stopped making aircraft invulnerable a long time ago.

    Fighter planes stopped getting faster and faster because the costs were going up and up and the payoff simply was not there.

    I seriously doubt that it takes 5 hours to deploy this radar. Its a mistake. 20 min at max.
    I agree... most of their VHS AESA ground based systems are designed to fold up and unfold rapidly... the slowest taking about 40-50 minutes, with the new ones taking 20 minutes or less.

    And thats why I think its time for MIG-32
    ?

    A MIG bomber?

    And that's why S-500 is being developed.
    And that's why PVO and space forces have been merged.

    The future of strategic aviation has been clear for a while: Hypersonic bombers, hypersonic missiles, hypersonic everything. Stealth will still be there...but in the back seat.
    Most of the S-300 family should be able to engage mach 6 targets... S-400 and S-500 would eat them for breakfast... especially when they will cost so much to make and put into service there wont be that many of them anyway.

    It is likely the Americans wont be going for super fast... they will most likely be going for unmanned...


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    Viktor

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Viktor on Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:50 am

    GarryB wrote:
    And thats why I think its time for MIG-32
    ?

    A MIG bomber?
    No, but a situation where like in past, Russia will have 500 supersonic/hypersonic interceptors in the form of MIG-32 and US, about 30 SR-72s. Very Happy
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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:06 am

    Even numbers are for bombers and strike aircraft... is Su-22, Su-24, Su-34, Tu-160... Tu-95 is about the only mistake, though it is believed its original designation was Tu-120 or something.

    Technically all currently flying Bears are actually Tu-142 designs anyway.

    A Mig-32 would be a bomber or strike aircraft...

    An interceptor would be Mig-37 or Mig-39 as the Mig-33 is the Mig-29K and the Mig-35 is already taken too. Smile

    In actual fact Russia will have 1,000s of hypersonic interceptors but they will be called S-400 and S-500 and S-300V4. Twisted Evil 


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    Mindstorm

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:21 am

    Austin wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Aviationweek's level of information's control and accuracy has gone truly down vertically in the latest years . Rolling Eyes 

    That for not say that ,some decades ago, "smoke and mirror" capabilities of US operatives was without any doubt immensely better than today.......in particular when the aim was to divert or conceal the true direction followed in the most strategically important military development programs........what a shame Mad .      
    I dont get what you say Mindstorm.

    AW&ST latest issue that covers US Hypersonic Program

    http://in.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416284053&e=true
    I simply mean that cyclic reclycling of ,at best, "Vaporware" Crap......

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:c7c40d1a-4bb2-4653-8dd9-40b6d05de309

    .....only to attract momentary attention, well knowing where really move and aim US's sector of reference is neither correct neither professionally serious.

    Not that this could have caught me totally surprised, taking into account that it is the same pubblication that lately has seen an AESA radar mounted on the Pantsyr-S1 at MAKS-2013 Laughing and that is totally incapable even only to distiguish between domestic and export denominations of products .


    SR-72 Laughing


    Austin

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:18 pm

    This link has better details

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-skunk-works-reveals-mach-60-sr-72-concept-392481/

    Brad Leland, Skunk Works’ programme manager for hypersonics, tells Flightglobal in an interview.

    “Adversaries are working on ways of countering stealth,” Leland says. “This is the counter to counter stealth. This is the way because when you come in both high and fast it’s all but impossible for our adversaries to intercept a vehicle or a missile like this. The time it takes to detect – and then try to intercept – we’ve gone by.”
    In the 90's S-300PMU2 was advertised with a capable of dealing with target speed of upto Mach 8

    http://www.enemyforces.net/missiles/s300pmu2.htm

    So how does something like an object which travels at Mach 6 be it Hypersonic Missile or Aircraft avoid a S-300PMU2 like system assuming it in the effective range of the SAM ?

    Do the manouver hard and follow unpredictable path at that speed ? Making computation to intercept such target all but impossible ? Or do they have other trick up their sleeve


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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:03 pm

    that rlm-me is a monster!affraid  larger aperture then even nebo-um.
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    GarryB

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:58 pm

    So how does something like an object which travels at Mach 6 be it Hypersonic Missile or Aircraft avoid a S-300PMU2 like system assuming it in the effective range of the SAM ?

    Do the manouver hard and follow unpredictable path at that speed ? Making computation to intercept such target all but impossible ? Or do they have other trick up their sleeve.
    Marketing of course keeps them invincible... Remember it is both stealthy and fast so when one is obviously not going to be effective then they pretend the other is the reason it will get through.

    10,000km/h = Mach 8.6 and that battery can engage 36 different targets with 72 missiles.

    By the time this plane gets into service S-400 and S-500 will be widely deployed....


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    SOC

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  SOC on Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:09 am

    GarryB wrote:Marketing of course keeps them invincible... Remember it is both stealthy and fast so when one is obviously not going to be effective then they pretend the other is the reason it will get through.
    Actually it's not that bad of an idea. LO in RF bands coupled with high speed will serve to impair the reaction time of a radar-guided SAM system. The massive IR signature will obviously preclude the aircraft from actually being "stealthy" but the speed, RF LO and altitude combination will make a difference if done properly. Nobody should confuse this with the plane being invincible but assuming that it'll always be obliterated is just as ridiculous.
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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:41 am

    Can imagine in the future a whole lot of barrage balloons around Moscow at high altitude... they wont be hanging cables below them... they can be fitted with IR sensors and laser rangefinders and could drop buckets of nails in the path of incoming enemy hypersonic aircraft... the kinetic impact alone will do the job... Smile

    BTW it will be amusing because the only altitude they could fly at hypersonic speeds would be very high altitudes, which means all those long wave radars will be ideal for spotting these new aircraft at max range.

    Satellites could probably spot them from their heat signature... friction heated skin and engine exhaust...


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    SOC

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  SOC on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Can imagine in the future a whole lot of barrage balloons around Moscow at high altitude... they wont be hanging cables below them... they can be fitted with IR sensors and laser rangefinders and could drop buckets of nails in the path of incoming enemy hypersonic aircraft... the kinetic impact alone will do the job... Smile
    lol! 

    Go ahead, waste the money on that one! Russia defending against things that'd only overfly Russia in a major war is a waste of resources. Now, getting someone like Iran to pay for it and selling it to them: much better idea. Not that it'd be all that realistic anyway, but still.

    GarryB wrote:BTW it will be amusing because the only altitude they could fly at hypersonic speeds would be very high altitudes, which means all those long wave radars will be ideal for spotting these new aircraft at max range.
    Depends on how big it is. JSF or F-22 size? you'll find it. Closer to B-1B size? LO for the VHF-bands works a lot better.

    GarryB wrote:Satellites could probably spot them from their heat signature... friction heated skin and engine exhaust...
    Hell, a FLANKER could probably get an IRST hit at a few hundred miles.

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Austin on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:28 pm

    SOC wrote:Depends on how big it is.  JSF or F-22 size?  you'll find it.  Closer to B-1B size?  LO for the VHF-bands works a lot better.
    B-1B size would need huge amount of power to push it to sustained Mach 6.

    Likely the bird will be SR-71 size or slightly larger as the propulsion looks more complicated and needs space.

    It would still be a fantastic achievement still if they can achieve that Mach 6 and use it like normal aircraft similar to SR-71.

    BTW wouldnt Mach 6 besides heating its skin and generating larget IR signature would also generate large turbulence that can be detected in long distance



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    SOC

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  SOC on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:48 pm

    Austin wrote:Likely the bird will be SR-71 size or slightly larger as the propulsion looks more complicated and needs space.
    A bit larger than the SR-71 and you are getting close to B-1B size. The SR was 107 feet long, the Bone 146. Either way you're still likely closer to Bone size than JSF size.
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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:07 am

    Depends on how big it is. JSF or F-22 size? you'll find it. Closer to B-1B size? LO for the VHF-bands works a lot better.
    If you want the shaping to help against long wave radar then you need a B-2 width aircraft and very simply we are talking arrowheads here... a Mach 6 B-1B arrowhead is very pointy because of the shock cone its nose generates and the body of the aircraft passes through... to make it B-2 size the wingtips will be out in the air and generate enormous drag... you can't have both... either B-2 width and therefore VHF stealth or mach 6 flight speed and Mig-23/F-111 arrow shape.

    The cost of these things will mean Russia likely wont have to do anything... congress will kill it long before the Russians ever have to. Twisted Evil 


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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:09 pm



    The SR-72 if ever goes into production will be anything but stealthy because of the heat that such big aircraft will generate.
    FLying at mach 6.. Major problems i see for the plane..

    1)Will probably cost as much as a submarine the aircraft or even more several millions.
    2)Latest S-300s and S-400s are hypersonic too and can shut it down ,since they made to target medium space
    altitude ballistic missiles.based on wiki the S-400 speed is up to mach 12.0
    3)By the time the SR-72 is in service 5-6 years.. an S-400 export version should be already operating in IRAN Venezuela and or Syria
    ,propably the major target of the American hypersonic drone. But also in many other countries.
    4)Is very likely the plane will have to travel very linear trajectory at mach 6.0 over very long distances to not break in air
    (Limitations that already was reported to happen with the SR-71 had at mach 3.0)
    5)It is possible the plane will not be able to fly lower than mach 3.0.. and keep its high altitude. (The SR-71 had to keep a constant speed of mach 3.0 not higher to not blow the engines not lower to not fall from lower space orbit in order to continue)
    6)At mach 3.0 the heat was so extreme in the SR-71 that it was said the plane had to be done in special plastics heat resistance materials ,and that the plane literary becomes larger in size when flying because of the heat. In the case of the SR-72 it could literary become a ball of fire to IR Sensors and even visible at clear nights by naked eye from the earth surface.. So probabilities it will be stealthy are not very high.
    7)The way to intercept the plane could be endless.. From customized Mig-25 or Mig-31 launching hypersonic long range missiles ,
    To designing Space mines..that implode by control remote.. At mach 6.0 even a small rock the size of a coin impacting the windshield of the plane will be catastrophic, or mini rockets with heavy fragmentation mounted on satellites or lazers.
    8)Another issue the SR-72 will face is a legal one. There is a treaty between US and Russia to not deploy weapons that could be controlled from space..Since the drone will carry missiles ,it will end the pact ,and justify Russia to militarize the space and this will not be convenient for US. You could for example store free fall bombs or missiles with nuclear warhead in satellites and drop them at any country and they will never know what hit them or be able to predict effectively is trajectory for being launched from space.

    Is worth to remember that Russia ICBMs like bulavas or topols speed in space in mach 22.0 and Russia practice a lot intercepting them with S-400s so the possibilities for the SR-72 to hide or evade Russia defenses are next to none. Unless US invented something radically new technology like Cold fusion engines or some kind of plasma shield that hides the plane IR and Radar signature.

    However not all is negative ,Maybe US only wants to use their new space drones not to invade others countries space and spy on them,but instead as satellite hunter without getting close to any defense system. this could be a serious blow to any nation logistics and blind their communications.But for sure this can't be done unless there is a real world war 3 with nuclear weapons involved.
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    SOC

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  SOC on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:29 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    5)It is possible the plane will not be able to fly lower than mach 3.0.. and keep its high altitude. (The SR-71 had to keep a constant speed of mach 3.0 not higher to not blow the engines not lower to not fall from lower space orbit in order to continue)
    6)At mach 3.0 the heat was so extreme in the SR-71 that it was said the plane had to be done in special plastics heat resistance materials ,and that the plane literary becomes larger in size when flying because of the heat. In the case of the SR-72 it could literary become a ball of fire to IR Sensors and even visible at clear nights by naked eye from the earth surface.. So probabilities it will be stealthy are not very high.
    8)Another issue the SR-72 will face is a legal one. There is a treaty between US and Russia to not deploy weapons that could be controlled from space..Since the drone will carry missiles ,it will end the pact ,and justify Russia to militarize the space and this will not be convenient for US. You could for example store free fall bombs or missiles with nuclear warhead in satellites and drop them at any country and they will never know what hit them or be able to predict effectively is trajectory for being launched from space.
    5. The SR-71 was capable of going faster than Mach 3.0 and did on occasion. The limiting factor was not Mach speed but compressor inlet temperature (CIT). Also, 85,000 feet or so is nowhere near lower space orbit.
    6. They made Blackbirds out of titanium to handle the heat, and yes, they did grow about a foot or so during high-speed cruise due to the temperature involved. This is part of the reason why the jet leaked fuel on the ground so profusely.
    8. Irrelevant, this thing is an air breather and therefore is not flying in space.
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    SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:50 pm

    To keep the weight down for the SR-71 (which actually should be called RS-71 but some politician got it wrong when they announced it and no one dared correct them) the outer skin of the aircraft is sealed and actually forms the outer surface of the fuel tanks... the problem is that when flying at full speed (mach 3.5 or so) the heat expands the metal... if there were no gaps when the metal was cold it would buckle and possibly pop off when flying at full speed so when the plane is on the ground they might put in a 1/5th of a load of fuel to let it take off... immediately inflight refuel it to fill the tanks and then accelerate as rapidly as possible to heat it up and seal the tanks.

    That is why the aircraft uses special very high flashpoint fuel to prevent fires during takeoff,

    Before it can land it has to fly around a bit to cool down.

    The main problem with the SR-71 was not top speed... it was the speed record holder... its shape however meant it was not that good at extreme altitude... the Mig holds the altitude record while the SR-71 has the speed record.

    Both aircraft burn through fuel rapidly which makes them very expensive to operate, but the Migs are mostly cheap stainless steel which makes them heavy but cheaper to build and easier to fix.


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    nemrod

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    SR-72 designed to overpower Russian Air Force

    Post  nemrod on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:10 pm

    http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/features/2013/sr-72.html

    http://aviationweek.com/awin-featured-story/exclusive-skunk-works-reveals-sr-71-successor-plan

    The news nowadays are dominated mostly by Gaza's tragedy and genocide against palestinians, also in Ukraine, by russian-ukrainians ethnic-cleanning and slaughtering. These news are marked by agressive and barbaric western stance against Russia, uncommunly US'administration that are the sources of most of the problems in the world.
    Hence, I had not enough time to take looks about technology.

    Nevertheless, it is worth sometimes to see what's happenned, and what are  projects  in american's mind to overpower China and Russia.

    Could SR-72 to overpower the future Mig-41 ?
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    Mike E

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:44 pm

    There is almost no chance that it would be able to penetrate Russian air-defenses. The S-500 should be able to take care of it.

    Also, the heat of the aircraft at hypersonic speeds would show up on IRST systems like a nuclear explosion.

    No point in building a "Mig-41", interceptors are (currently) a thing of the past. Besides, the Russian aerospace industry is busy with the PAK-FA, newer variations of MiG's and Flankers, and the Fulcrum replacement. russia
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    TR1

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    Re: SR-72 Hypersonic Strike Aircraft Revealed

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:46 pm

    Russian aerospace is creating no Fulcrum replacement at the moment, actually.

    A light modern fighter is far from decided. They might just go for a UCAV.

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