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    Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 14, 2017 5:54 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    hoom wrote:If it's Onyx only thats a little disappointing actually, I like the idea of Russia having the option to send an Oscar off to Syria & launch a crapload of Kalibrs on the Jihadis, or even just to have a mixed anti-ship salvo.

    Agree, and I'd regret the inability to carry the Kalibre ASW variant, as this could be very useful for the 949AM as self-protection against enemy SSNs (though its probably doubtful that they have the sonar capabilities to detect and track a modern quiet SSN sufficiently to use such a long range missile/torp).

    Still, as Seig states, its not actually confirmed yet, so watch this space.

    Has a soldier, I want you guys to understand that what you like verse what is tactically effective are two different matters.

    Antey is not an attack sub it was never ever meant to hunt other subs so why would it be given ASW?. That's for the Akula-M's kilo's and Yasen's are for.

    I have seen no intelligence either to support Kalibers will be installed while it's possible one sub was finished with P-800's so the chances are slim they will outfit the rest with Kalibers.

    Fact of the matter P-800's are better for what the Antey is designed to do verse Kalibers. Now if we are talking about Zircon's then that is a different story (Zircon missiles can be launched from universal launching platforms 3C14 which are also used for the Onyx) so imagine 72 Mach 8 Hypersonic missiles being launched at a carrier for example?. That carrier is dead nothing will be able to save it.

    Like PaPa Said if they really want arsenal ships they can convert some Delta IV's for such a purpose, P-800's can strike land targets granted Kaliber are better for this.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 14, 2017 6:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    hoom

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  hoom on Sun May 14, 2017 9:29 pm

    P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.
    Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
    From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
    But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun May 14, 2017 10:28 pm

    hoom wrote:
    P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.
    Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
    From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
    But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.

    The granit range is at least 1000 km.

    The granit is as big as the mig-21, and that has 2200 km ferry range.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun May 14, 2017 10:34 pm

    I haven't seen anything that mentions that K-266 Orel has received P-800 Onyx upgrade. AFAIK, after its recent modernization in Zvezdochka (in the North-West of the country), it still retains the Granits.

    The Project 949A Oscar submarines that are getting the more extensive modernization (including the missile upgrade) are the K-132 Irkutsk and K-442 Chelyabinsk. These modernization are currently being done in the Far East at Zvezda shipyard.
    Both Onyx and Kalibr are most likely. Zircon will probably be added once it is ready.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 14, 2017 10:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:I haven't seen anything that mentions that K-266 Orel has received P-800 Onyx upgrade. AFAIK, after its recent modernization in Zvezdochka (in the North-West of the country), it still retains the Granits.

    The Project 949A Oscar submarines that are getting the more extensive modernization (including the missile upgrade) are the K-132 Irkutsk and K-442 Chelyabinsk. These modernization are currently being done in the Far East at Zvezda shipyard.
    Both Onyx and Kalibr are most likely. Zircon will probably be added once it is ready.

    I am well aware of what sub are being upgraded and yes 266 was it caught fire when they finished applying the rubber coating after ripping open the hull to modernization everything.

    2014-2015 they finished the work it then caught after they had to apply the seal.

    Took them about two years to make sure everything was in order before they floated her out 266 is the first finished project 949AM.

    You likely won't either, just like how Russia never announced two Akula submarines are fitted with kalibers, the two they sent to syria last October. (Unless British Naval Intelligence is wrong which I doubt)

    Edit: Here tho, managed to find some civilian confirmation to please people who would like to see some evidence (Since I cannot provide military grade evidence unless I wanna go to prison which I kinda don't)

    https://rg.ru/2017/04/06/podvodnyj-krejser-orel-otpravilsia-k-mestu-bazirovaniia.html

    Note the words "Previously installed on the submarine project anti-ship cruise missiles complex P-700 "Granit""

    At the bottom.
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    Isos

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Isos on Mon May 15, 2017 12:01 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.
    Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
    From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
    But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.

    The granit range is at least 1000 km.

    The granit is as big as the mig-21, and that has 2200 km ferry range.

    Granit is supersonic all the way ...
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    hoom

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  hoom on Mon May 15, 2017 9:19 am

    The granit range is at least 1000 km.
    The P-800/Onyx range is under 500km or Bastion-P infringes the INF treaty.

    You likely won't either, just like how Russia never announced two Akula submarines are fitted with kalibers, the two they sent to syria last October. (Unless British Naval Intelligence is wrong which I doubt)
    Reporting I saw claimed it was 2 Oscars not Akulas eg https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/09/nato-hunting-at-least-one-russian-navy-oscar-ii-class-submarine-that-is-chasing-aircraft-carriers-in-the-mediterranean-sea/ as someone said at the time: such claims should be checked against appropriately dated satellite photos of sub docks to see if any are actually at sea since previous similar Cold War era claims were proven false that way.

    Note the words "Previously installed on the submarine project anti-ship cruise missiles complex P-700 "Granit""

    At the bottom.
    It also says new armament is Onyx/Kalibr Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 15, 2017 11:57 am

    The P-800/Onyx range is under 500km or Bastion-P infringes the INF treaty.

    Onyx is not Granit... Onyx is about 2.5 tons of missile... Granit is 7 tons of missile.

    Granit is ship based only so is not covered by INF treaty.

    Regarding comments about land attack not being the mission of the Soviet SSGNs... that is true, but then the Kirov upgrades are supposed to replace ship attack only Granits with UKSK launchers able to carry anti ship, anti sub, and land attack missiles.

    The question really is what are they upgrading the new vessels with... is it something that is missile specific or is it a universal tube able to carry a range of missile types.

    Personally I suspect they will go for the latter as it guarantees their future growth in terms of missile options... it means when Zircon becomes available then it can be deployed on more platforms immediately.

    In terms of logistics it makes sense to have standardised launchers and missiles so a Pacific fleet sub going to the Northern Fleet does not have to worry about what missiles it can be loaded with...

    AFAIK the Granit has a range of about 600km or so.


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    hoom

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  hoom on Mon May 15, 2017 4:14 pm

    Why is everyone talking about Granit range?
    The quote was
    P-800's can hit land targets
    -> I'm talking P-800/Onyx range which is pretty short.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon May 15, 2017 4:46 pm

    hoom wrote:Why is everyone talking about Granit range?
    The quote was
    P-800's can hit land targets
    -> I'm talking P-800/Onyx range which is pretty short.

    The range of the land-based version of the P-800 (The BASTION) is limited to 500 km by treaty.
    The ship/submarine based version (ONYX) is not limited by any treaty.

    Nobody knows the exact range of any of the above.
    It is possible that the sea based ONYX has the same range as the land based version or it could be longer.
    Anything you see/read on forums, blogs or cyberspace is just speculation.
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    gaurav

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  gaurav on Mon May 15, 2017 5:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:Onyx is not Granit... Onyx is about 2.5 tons of missile... Granit is 7 tons of missile.

    Granit is ship based only so is not covered by INF treaty.

    Regarding comments about land attack not being the mission of the Soviet SSGNs... that is true, but then the Kirov upgrades are supposed to replace ship attack only Granits with UKSK launchers able to carry anti ship, anti sub, and land attack missiles.

    The question really is what are they upgrading the new vessels with... is it something that is missile specific or is it a universal tube able to carry a range of missile types.

    Personally I suspect they will go for the latter as it guarantees their future growth in terms of missile options... it means when Zircon becomes available then it can be deployed on more platforms immediately.

    In terms of logistics it makes sense to have standardised launchers and missiles so a Pacific fleet sub going to the Northern Fleet does not have to worry about what missiles it can be loaded with...

    AFAIK the Granit has a range of about 600km or so.

    My point of view is also very similar to yours. There is some competition going on between UKSK and Granit type launchers.
    We exactly do not know why is that happening.
      Nakhimov UKSK launchers.
      Admiral essen and Ad Gorshkov frigates UKSK (HUge number of them lets say 12- 15 frigates)
      Admiral Kuznetsov : donno Sometimes they say UKSK and sometimes they say previous launchers
      The future of russian navy should be based on unified launchers.
      But right now Russian navy is choosing in ad hoc fashion donno the reason though.
      Severodvinsk also has UKSK but Kazan series I donno.
      UKSK was called Unified launchers thats why it carried Onyx and Calibre (different kinds of missiles)
      Granit launchers cannot be used for Onyx missiles .This point is given above in your post.
      Onyx has some 3C-14 launcher specification but Granit has some other specification.
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  gaurav on Mon May 15, 2017 5:21 pm

    Yaah Pr 949AM .
    4 subs are planned for UKSK upgrades. and remaining subs will retain their Granit launchers.
    We do not know what kind of launchers Orei has whether it is UKSK or some other.
    I think Pr 949AM has changed its launchers to UKSK (Universal launchers Calibre /Onyx /Zircon) but cant say ..lot of speculation in these 949AM.

    But apart from Orei what other ships are undergoing/will undergo this "AM" modernization is another question
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon May 15, 2017 9:19 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.
    Can hit land targets yes but with a limited range.
    From the viewpoint of keeping the Oscars as a dedicated CVBG deterrent sure, anti-ship missiles only.
    But to me I see having the option of putting a heap of Kalibrs on them as a pretty easy opportunity to also ramp up Russia's Conventional Deterrent.

    The granit range is at least 1000 km.

    The granit is as big as the mig-21, and that has 2200 km ferry range.

    Granit is supersonic all the way ...

    The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

    The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
    So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

    So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

    Same for the onyx.


    By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.
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    Isos

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Isos on Mon May 15, 2017 9:51 pm

    The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

    The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
    So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

    So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

    Same for the onyx.


    By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

    Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

    Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

    It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

    P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon May 15, 2017 11:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

    The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
    So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

    So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

    Same for the onyx.


    By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

    Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

    Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

    It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

    P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

    These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

    The 12 Granit from the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

    See the difference?

    So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

    Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


    The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

    It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

    And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?
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    Isos

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Isos on Tue May 16, 2017 1:14 pm

    Sr-71 was intercepted by Mig-31, no ? So it's not a fake plane.

    These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

    The 12 Granit from the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

    See the difference?

    So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

    Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


    The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

    It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

    And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

    Granit is supersonic all the way. For achieving 24 km altitude it would take all the fuel it has in it. Designers didn't restrict anything, it's the physic laws that did.

    12 Granit won't go through a carrier group. They planed to lunch granits from kuz, kirov and oscar at the same time to go trough US defences.

    You should stop thinking that every official number is a lie. Actually, it's the oposite. Achieving a 2500 km range for a cruise missile is a big achievement, many countries would want that.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue May 16, 2017 11:32 pm

    Isos wrote:Sr-71 was intercepted by Mig-31, no ? So it's not a fake plane.

    These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

    The 12 Granit from the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

    See the difference?

    So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

    Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


    The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

    It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

    And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

    Granit is supersonic all the way. For achieving 24 km altitude it would take all the fuel it has in it. Designers didn't restrict anything, it's the physic laws that did.

    12 Granit won't go through a carrier group. They planed to lunch granits from kuz, kirov and oscar at the same time to go trough US defences.

    You should stop thinking that every official number is a lie. Actually, it's the oposite. Achieving a 2500 km range for a cruise missile is a big achievement, many countries would want that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramjet

    physic law saying the most efficient operating enviroment is 3 match / 24 km height, other altitude and speed require more fuel for the same distance.

    To climb from 12 km altitude to 24 km requrie 60 kg of fuel for a 8000 kg ramjet aircraft.

    So, the official numbers are diferent from the physic law numbers. Which one is the right?

    There is spare data about the granit/onyx development cost, but I hava a feeling the f-35 is a cheap ride compared to the development cost of these missiles.

    And frankly, I can't imagine how a carrier group can prevent at least two from the twelve Granit to hit the carrier.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 17, 2017 12:12 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

    The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
    So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

    So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

    Same for the onyx.


    By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

    Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

    Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

    It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

    P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

    These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

    The 12 Granit from  the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

    See the difference?

    So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

    Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


    The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

    It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

    And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

    12 Granits to destroy battlegroup? Every ship commander would trade his left arm if he managed to get 3 or 4 immobilisations from salvo of 12 Granits.
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed May 17, 2017 12:19 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The SR-71 had 6000 km range with 3 match, at 24km height.

    The SR-71 had oversized wings to take of from airstrips,was designed in the 60s, gas turbine to accelerate the airplane to match 1, landing gears and so on.
    So, a simple aircraft without the restriction/drag of thesr-71 should be more effective,and should have longer range.

    So if someone say that the grait has 6000 km range then it is more plausible than the 600km .

    Same for the onyx.


    By very high chance the only key parameter / difference between the 700/800 is the electronic weight/generation.

    Granit is meant to fly at low altitudes, even most anti air missiles can't fly at 24 km... let alone anti ship missile. Kh-22 can fly higher and has just 1000 km range max but it is air lunched.

    Sr-71 at 24km has far less drag than Granit at 2km.

    It's not plausible it is stupid. Even Kalibr land Attack missile designeed for long range Attack has arond 2000 km. A supersonic missile will burn much faster its fuel as it needs more power because of the air density.

    P-700 is 10T while P-800 is 3-4 T. I am pretty sur it's not about elec weight.

    These stuff are not in the same leauge like the SAMs.

    The 12 Granit from  the Kuz can destroy a carrier group, 12 SAM can destroy 4-5 aircraft from thi group.

    See the difference?

    So , why the CCCP designers would restrict the P-700?

    Its basic design allow to fly at 24 km with 3-4 match, for thousands of KMs.


    The end rush must be low, few meters above the water, with the highest possible speed.

    It means it needs to accelerate from as high as possible.

    And why yoi think that the tomahawk or calibr range is as big as the official number?

    12 Granits to destroy battlegroup? Every ship commander would trade his left arm if he managed to get 3 or 4 immobilisations from salvo of 12 Granits.


    300 kt warhead make magic possible

    But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 17, 2017 12:26 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:


    300 kt warhead make magic possible

    But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.



    IF, you hit the target.

    Also from what i am aware it should be 500kt. And i belive those are not normally seen around these days, they carry Gex warheads these days.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 17, 2017 11:58 am

    P-800's can hit land targets... The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.

    The old job of Antei was anti ship, but then if that job remains why would they bother with a land attack capability for the Granit?

    I mean if the main carrier of Granits are Kirovs and the Kuznetsov and Oscar class subs... the Kirovs are getting UKSK launchers so they can use Calibrs so they don't need a land attack version of granit because they wont be able to carry granits anyway. This means that the Granits on the K or the Oscars will be used against land targets, but we know the Oscars are getting Onyx liners for their tubes.

    This tells me that all upgraded Russian ships will become multirole and if that is the case then the reasons to use UKSK become much more compelling.

    The upgrades for the Oscars are perhaps necessary for the location... between the inner and outer hull at the sides of the sub perhaps don't allow standard UKSK launchers to be fitted.

    I rather suspect the future role of the Oscars and Kirovs and Kuznestov will include potential land attack missions that will make use of new stealthy long range subsonic and hypersonic missiles.


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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed May 17, 2017 7:09 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:


    300 kt warhead make magic possible

    But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.



    IF, you hit the target.

    Also from what i am aware it should be 500kt. And i belive those are not normally seen around these days, they carry Gex warheads these days.

    Can you explain HOW can you shoot down match 3 missiles, with ramjet propulsion?


    They are not the "one hit" type ballistic missiles, like the amraam , harpoon or 40N6 .

    These even can run run a cycle if they think the target is not visible due to jamming/chaff .
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    Isos

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Isos on Wed May 17, 2017 9:02 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:


    300 kt warhead make magic possible

    But even two supersonic conventional warhead can badly damage a carrier.



    IF, you hit the target.

    Also from what i am aware it should be 500kt. And i belive those are not normally seen around these days, they carry Gex warheads these days.

    Can you explain HOW can you shoot down match 3 missiles, with ramjet propulsion?


    They are not the "one hit" type ballistic missiles, like the amraam , harpoon or 40N6 .

    These even can run run a cycle if they think the target is not visible due to jamming/chaff .


    Even old version of anti air missile can shoot them. Why do you think they were lunched in salvos ??? Suspect

    Aster missiles were tested against mach 3 targets and they even touched the target, they didn't just exploded but dammaged it with a direct contact.

    Its speed at low altitude is more like mach 1.5 than mach 3. The only anti ship missile with the capability to go back to the target if it missed is the exocet. Till today I've never heard about another doing this. For the granit it's probably impossible to do 180° turn.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed May 17, 2017 9:55 pm

    Isos wrote:


    Even old version of anti air missile can shoot them. Why do you think they were lunched in salvos ??? Suspect

    Because the Soviet military drafted theoretical mathematicians/ statisticians as strategical / tactical analyser and designers.
    Isos wrote:
    Aster missiles were tested against mach 3 targets and they even touched the target, they didn't just exploded but dammaged it with a direct contact.

    Its speed at low altitude is more like mach 1.5 than mach 3. The only anti ship missile with the capability to go back to the target if it missed is the exocet. Till today I've never heard about another doing this. For the granit it's probably impossible to do 180° turn.

    Exocet is a 700kg missile with solid fuel, means rubbish Isp , the granit is a 7000 kg monster, with liquid ramjet engine, means it has extremely high Isp - even better high altitude/speed than the best turbine jet engine.

    So, if any rocket can make complex manoeuvrers then that is the granit.


    And it is quite easy to hit a ballistic missile/not manoeuvre target.You target to the front of it,it was possible even in the first WW.

    The whole ballistic missile shield is about it.


    But it is quite complicated to intercept something that has 40-60 kN thrust with 4-6 tons of weight (at the end of flight path) , and can pull 10-30 g turns, and has enough weight allowance for full range of sensors.

    And it is correct, the granit can't have more than 1.5-2 match at sea level.


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 18, 2017 12:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:The upgrades for the Oscars are perhaps necessary for the location... between the inner and outer hull at the sides of the sub perhaps don't allow standard UKSK launchers to be fitted.

    I expect the use of custom inserts is a cost thing. Replacement of the Granit launch tubes with Yasen tubes would be prohibitive in terms of cost and schedule.

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

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