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    Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

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    GarryB

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    Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:30 am

    According to this article:

    http://lenta.ru/news/2011/12/12/antey/

    The Oscar class vessels will have their Granits replaced one for one by Onyx, so instead of being loaded with 24 Granits, they will carry 24 Onyx missiles.

    Why is that important?

    Onyx has no land attack capability, unlike the Brahmos, so with Onyx loaded these subs are clearly retaining their anti ship mission, and with the two Kirov class vessels likely being refitted with Onyx, it seems the Granit will be retired and Onyx will enter service in significant numbers to replace it.

    From the look of the article it seems the Onyx can be fitted directly into the Granit launch tubes as there was no mention of UKSK launchers being fitted.

    With the Kirov class upgrade however it usually mentions Oniks and Klub, which means UKSK launchers (80 tubes or 10 launcher bins of 8 tubes each has been mentioned).
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:According to this article:

    http://lenta.ru/news/2011/12/12/antey/

    The Oscar class vessels will have their Granits replaced one for one by Onyx, so instead of being loaded with 24 Granits, they will carry 24 Onyx missiles.

    I think the Granit launchers will be replaced by UKSKs. Each UKSK can hold 3 or 4 missile depending on who you believe. In addition the inclined Granit launchers occupy more space than the vertically stowed UKSKs. 28 or 30 or even 32 UKSKs can take the place of 24 Granit launchers. A real multiplication of firepower.

    Onyx has no land attack capability, unlike the Brahmos

    Says who? Can you provide a manufacturers statement or specifications sheet?

    the two Kirov class vessels likely being refitted with Onyx

    That is now a certainty (Unless the refit is suddenly cancelled). Both Onyx and Kalibr will be in the UKSKs of the refitted Kirovs and IMHO in the modernized Oscars.

    it seems the Granit will be retired and Onyx will enter service in significant numbers to replace it.
    Granit production has ceased a while ago. The existing stocks will last for a while. They will be replaced by Onyx, Kalibr and maybe other unknown designs (including a possible naval version of Kh-101/102).

    From the look of the article it seems the Onyx can be fitted directly into the Granit launch tubes as there was no mention of UKSK launchers being fitted.

    No mention of UKSKs does not mean they won't be there.
    The slimmer Onyx can definitly be made to fit in a larger Granit launcher. That would be a very easy and inexpensive undertaking. However that would decrease the firepower of the Oscars because Onyx's warhead is smaller. Opting for UKSKs (like the Kirov refit) is more costly but, as mentioned earlier, it will multiply the firepower of the subs. That is the more cost effective thing to do.

    With the Kirov class upgrade however it usually mentions Oniks and Klub, which means UKSK launchers.
    Yes. Isn't it logical that they do to do Oscars the same thing they do to the Kirovs?






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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:12 pm

    From: http://www.ria.ru/defense_safety/20111212/514712329.html

    Quick on-line translation:

    APL 949 they will re-arm to the cruise missiles of "Oniks" and "Kalibr"

    To add the commentary 09:11 12/12/2011 Moscow, Dec 11 - RIA of the news.
    The nuclear-powered submarines (APL) of project 949, the analogs of that been killed in 2000 of "Kursk" , they will re-arm to the missile complexes of "Oniks" and " Kalibr" , reported RIA of the news on Monday the high-ranking representative of Russian OPK. At present these APL are armed by the cruise missiles of "Granit". " Until today TSKB Rubin protects engineering design, whose development, connected with the repair and the modernization APL 949, is completed. These APL will re-arm to the cruise missiles of "Oniks" and "Kalibr" , the collocutor of agency said. In this case he emphasized that for designers it was possible to place rockets in the same containers, in which are located the rockets of "Granit" , moreover without the alteration of housing, and even with an increase in the ammunition. Repair and modernization they will carry out the plant of " [Zvezdochka]" ([Severodvinsk]) in the European part of Russia, and in the Far East - plant of " [Zvezda]".

    The part I bolded is somehow contradictory. How can you increase the ammunition load if you don't do alterations to the housing?
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  runaway on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:moreover without the alteration of housing, and even with an increase in the ammunition. Repair and modernization they will carry out the plant of " [Zvezdochka]" ([Severodvinsk]) in the European part of Russia, and in the Far East - plant of " [Zvezda]".

    The part I bolded is somehow contradictory. How can you increase the ammunition load if you don't do alterations to the housing?

    Good thinking, i reacted to that too. Maybe they can stack them 2 for 1? But that would mean smaller missiles, smaller warheads, less range. So whats the gain?

    Like Gary said, a land attack capable missile would be a real advantage for different mission capabilities.

    But its a good thing they aims to standartize the missile load for large combatans, like Anteys and Orlans.
    And in the relative near future, i guess the Atlants will join the family.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:32 am

    I think the Granit launchers will be replaced by UKSKs. Each UKSK can hold 3 or 4 missile depending on who you believe. In addition the inclined Granit launchers occupy more space than the vertically stowed UKSKs. 28 or 30 or even 32 UKSKs can take the place of 24 Granit launchers. A real multiplication of firepower.

    I would love to see the UKSK replace the existing launch mountings as it not only would increase missile capacity, but also it would be standard with systems fitted to other vessels in the fleet... sub and ship based.

    The problem is that UKSK are vertical tubes while the existing launchers are inclined, so it is not a case of popping out the old and dropping in the new.

    Earlier Oniks launchers were also inclined but because the Oniks is a similar length, it is much slimmer and lighter than the Granit, I think from memory it held something like 3 Oniks in each launcher to one Granit launcher that held two missiles, so if they dropped those in, they might not have the flexibility of the UKSK, but they should be able to carry rather more missiles per boat.... and the conversion will be much simpler and cheaper.

    Remember all their future ships and subs will likely have at least one set of UKSK VLS tubes, so there is not going to be a shortage of cruise missile platforms.

    Says who? Can you provide a manufacturers statement or specifications sheet?

    Ummmm... why do you think the Indian Navy wanted to develop the Brahmos? The Granit had no land attack capability either, because it was designed for one purpose only... sinking carriers and ships within the protection of a carrier group... and the parallel Vulkan and Moskit, and the replacement for Moskit (Onyx) and the export version of the replacement for Moskit (Yakhont) were anti ship missiles.

    The current model Oniks might have benefitted from improved electronics and propulsion via the development of Brahmos... it is not caught in some tie stasis field that prevents its continual improvement, but the missile as designed was an anti ship missile with no land attack capability. No doubt they have integrated GLONASS and the latest models might have some ground attack capability, but the original did not and was not intended for that.

    The UKSK allows the use of Brahmos and Klub for land attack if needed so there is little obvious point in spending money to enable the Onix to do something they don't really plan to use it for.

    That is now a certainty (Unless the refit is suddenly cancelled). Both Onyx and Kalibr will be in the UKSKs of the refitted Kirovs and IMHO in the modernized Oscars.

    Not sure about the Oscars... from what I have read they only want to implement the minimal changes to the Oscars, so they might use older launch tubes for the Onix/yakhont, which were also inclined.

    Granit production has ceased a while ago. The existing stocks will last for a while. They will be replaced by Onyx, Kalibr and maybe other unknown designs (including a possible naval version of Kh-101/102).

    They will likely use Granits as targets for naval and perhaps even land based air defence force practise.
    Navy spokesmen have already mentioned that an unnamed 5,500km range cruise missile is compatible with the UKSK launcher in Russian service... which can only be the Kh-101/102.

    No mention of UKSKs does not mean they won't be there.
    The slimmer Onyx can definitly be made to fit in a larger Granit launcher. That would be a very easy and inexpensive undertaking. However that would decrease the firepower of the Oscars because Onyx's warhead is smaller. Opting for UKSKs (like the Kirov refit) is more costly but, as mentioned earlier, it will multiply the firepower of the subs. That is the more cost effective thing to do.

    The problem... again is that the UKSK tubes are vertical and are normally added to a sub by the addition of a section to the existing sub design rather than installed either side of the pressure hull in the external hull like the Granits were in the Oscars.
    Using the old Oniks launchers is not actually a bad thing as each launcher could carry 3 missiles, while the old Granit launchers were twin launchers, so rather than holding 24 missiles in 12 launchers, with the old Oniks launchers an upgraded Oscar should be able to carry 36 Oniks missiles in 12 launchers... and by 2020 they will likely be replaced by missiles flying with scramjet propulsion at mach 7-8 with even better performance.

    Yes. Isn't it logical that they do to do Oscars the same thing they do to the Kirovs?

    Not really. Oscars might support a carrier group, but their primary role is anti enemy carrier group, for which Klubs would not be much use... The additional cost of installing UKSK launchers is not really worth it to add anti sub capability and land attack capability. With some work they could probably make the old Oniks inclined launchers compatible with the supersonic anti ship Klub which could be interesting, but rather than hunting US carrier groups, the Modern Russian Fleet for the next 10-20 years will be more focused on defending its own carrier groups and its strategic missile subs.

    New vessels entering service with UKSK bins should be able to handle any requirement to attack terrorist bases on enemy territory.

    The part I bolded is somehow contradictory. How can you increase the ammunition load if you don't do alterations to the housing?

    The current housing holds Granit launchers that hold two missiles each. There are 12 on each Oscar for 24 missiles. Replacing those with old inclined Oniks launchers able to hold 3 slimmer missiles (like Oniks/Yakhont/Brahmos, or Kalibre/Klub), would be cheaper and simpler than redesigning it to take UKSK launchers that are vertical.

    Good thinking, i reacted to that too. Maybe they can stack them 2 for 1? But that would mean smaller missiles, smaller warheads, less range. So whats the gain?

    The gain is the replacement of a 1970s technology missile that is no longer in production with a 1990s technology missile that is ready for full production and is widely used throughout the Russian fleet.

    Previously the Kirovs, the Kuznetsov, and the Oscars were the carriers of the Granit missile. Now everything from their corvettes, through frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and all their conventional an nuclear attack and missile subs can carry the same standard missile... and in a few years that new missile will fly more than twice as fast.

    In many ways it combines the widespread standardised use of Harpoon, with the power and brute force of the old big supersonic Soviet missiles.


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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:49 am

    The part I bolded is somehow contradictory. How can you increase the ammunition load if you don't do alterations to the housing?

    and

    Good thinking, i reacted to that too. Maybe they can stack them 2 for 1?



    Probably a look to the layout of an SM-315 launcher (if that is the solution adopted) could aid at disperse those doubts.





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    GarryB

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:00 am

    Good post Mindstorm... it pretty clearly shows the problems of replacing the existing Granit launchers that look a lot like the launchers in your picture, though they only hold 2 Granits per tube, while these launchers hold 3 missiles per tube.

    The UKSK launchers, being vertical simply wont fit mounted vertically:



    As you can see under the deck the standard 8 tube launch module of the UKSK consists of two large launch tubes each holding 4 missiles of a variety of types... as far as i can tell including:

    Oniks, Yakhont, Brahmos, the Klub/Kalibr family of land attack cruise missiles, anti ship cruise missiles (including subsonic and supersonic versions) and also anti sub ballistic rocket propelled torpedoes (fired at mach 1.5 to a range of 40-50km depending on the model where the torpedoes enter the water and start searching for sub targets). They are also compatible with the Kh-101 and Kh-102 long range (5,500km) land attack cruise missiles.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:28 pm

    Remember the old Soviet YANKEE class SSBNs converted to SSGNs (the project 667M Andromeda and Project 667AT Grusha).
    The Soviets went to great lengths to modify the above subs for the new role. I would not be surprised if the Russians ditch the inclined SM-225A launchers (that hold one Granit) and install vertical launch UKSKs. True, it would be the most expensive and extensive modification, but it will provide the greatest boost in firepower. If they are prpared to do it for the battlecruisers why not the Oscars?
    The SM-315 inclined launchers that hold 3 Onyx/Kalibers are the next best solution. In this case each Granit cell will be replaced by 1 SM-315 which holds a troika of missiles. So 24 x 3 = 72 missiles.

    Photo of SM-225A



    Ummmm... why do you think the Indian Navy wanted to develop the Brahmos? The Granit had no land attack capability either, because it was designed for one purpose only... sinking carriers and ships within the protection of a carrier group... and the parallel Vulkan and Moskit, and the replacement for Moskit (Onyx) and the export version of the replacement for Moskit (Yakhont) were anti ship missiles.

    The current model Oniks might have benefitted from improved electronics and propulsion via the development of Brahmos... it is not caught in some tie stasis field that prevents its continual improvement, but the missile as designed was an anti ship missile with no land attack capability. No doubt they have integrated GLONASS and the latest models might have some ground attack capability, but the original did not and was not intended for that.

    The UKSK allows the use of Brahmos and Klub for land attack if needed so there is little obvious point in spending money to enable the Onix to do something they don't really plan to use it for.

    The Brahmos is not an Indian project. It is a Russian-Indian one. Anything developped there should be automatically considered a given for the Russia only Onyx.
    OK, why have a land attack capable Onyx if you already have the Kaliber that can do that? Because the supersonic Onyx is more capable in penetrating well defended airspaces than the subsonic Kaliber. Think of it as a Naval equivalent of the Iskander.

    with the old Oniks launchers an upgraded Oscar should be able to carry 36 Oniks missiles in 12 launchers
    With the SM-315 it will be 72 missiles as i metioned earlier in this post.

    Not really. Oscars might support a carrier group, but their primary role is anti enemy carrier group, for which Klubs would not be much use...
    What makes you think so? I think that will be the Yasens job. The older/larger/less quiet Oscar's primary role will be strategic/tactical decapitating massive cruise missile launches against land targets while retaining anti-shipping capabilities as well.






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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:10 am

    The Soviets went to great lengths to modify the above subs for the new role.

    They did, but they did that to create a testbed for new designs using the new systems.

    In this case however they are prolonging the life of the Oscars by removing weapons no longer in production and replacing them with current standard weapons.

    The roles are not fundamentally changed... they will likely continue in the role of countering US carrier groups.

    The Soviets went to great lengths to modify the above subs for the new role. I would not be surprised if the Russians ditch the inclined SM-225A launchers (that hold one Granit) and install vertical launch UKSKs. True, it would be the most expensive and extensive modification, but it will provide the greatest boost in firepower.

    Would they fit vertically mounted?

    Do older Oscars need more fire power?

    The US Fleet has become more capable but are also less of a threat.

    If they are prpared to do it for the battlecruisers why not the Oscars?

    A Kirov class vessel has the potential to show the flag or operate as the core of a carrier group, for which large numbers of a range of different types of missiles would be useful.

    The Oscar is and always was simply the backbone of an attack on a US carrier group. This role has diminished somewhat, but remains and might be transferred to a capablility against Chinese carriers... or Japanese ones.

    The SM-315 inclined launchers that hold 3 Onyx/Kalibers are the next best solution. In this case each Granit cell will be replaced by 1 SM-315 which holds a troika of missiles. So 24 x 3 = 72 missiles.

    You are assuming the SM-315 takes up the same space as a single SM-225A, which is a rather dubious assumption in my opinion.

    The Brahmos is not an Indian project. It is a Russian-Indian one. Anything developped there should be automatically considered a given for the Russia only Onyx.

    Are you suggesting that the Russians shared all the technology of the Yakhont to India?

    It was more akin to the Su-30MKI program, where a Russian base item was given extended capabilities using Indian and foreign technology and solutions to meet very specific Indian needs. There was little if any technology sharing, though the Brahmos uses GLONASS for guidance in the land attack mode.

    OK, why have a land attack capable Onyx if you already have the Kaliber that can do that? Because the supersonic Onyx is more capable in penetrating well defended airspaces than the subsonic Kaliber. Think of it as a Naval equivalent of the Iskander.

    Let me put it this way... why didn't the Russian AF apply the SMT upgrade to its Mig-29s straight away... R-77 capability plus reduced support costs by 40% it would have paid for itself in less than 5 years.

    The simple reason is that the Mig-29 was a point defence interceptor, and making it multirole would have made no difference as the unit that operate it are not trained in air to ground roles.

    Why spend money making Oniks able to hit land targets when Klub can do it from 2,000km?

    With the SM-315 it will be 72 missiles as i metioned earlier in this post.

    Assuming 24 SM-315s will fit... if only 12 fit, then it is 36.

    What makes you think so? I think that will be the Yasens job.

    How many Yasens are there in service? There is a reason this upgrade is cheap and uses "existing launchers". It makes it a relatively quick and cheap conversion.

    The older/larger/less quiet Oscar's primary role will be strategic/tactical decapitating massive cruise missile launches against land targets while retaining anti-shipping capabilities as well.

    I think the quieter Yasens would be better in the role of protecting the SSBNs from enemy SSNs. The Oscars on the other hand would be much more valuable in stopping enemy carrier groups closing to strike range of Russia and launching air attacks with tactical nuclear weapons.

    Long range strikes on the US are better left to SLBMs...
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:11 am

    I think it is pretty clear the main reason behind this sudden Granit replacement, is not a sudden realization in missile inadequacy, but something to do with missile life, exploitation future, and numbers available to maintain effective force credibility. The Anteiis are a critical component of the Russian Navy's anti-ship capability, and continue to provide immense in-theater deterrent value; them becoming toothless must have spooked the Navy, who has so far been penny pinching in regards to existing ship modernization and overhaul.

    Even if missile numbers are not increased, Kalibr will bring a much needed land attack capability that the RuNavy lacks.

    Also...there is some positive rumors on the Belgorod front Smile . And no, I don't mean they are finally scrapping it and freeing the space.
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:29 am

    Would they fit vertically mounted?

    It is not a matter of dimensions. Extensive refit will be required to install UKSKs no matter what the dimensions are.

    Do older Oscars need more fire power?

    Hell yes. 24 missiles was awesome during the eighties. It is so-so in 21st century terms. It is mediocre for a 20,000 ton vessel if massive land attack strikes are called for.

    The US Fleet has become more capable but are also less of a threat

    Sizewise, the US fleet is a shadow of Reagan's 600 ship Navy. Of course, capabilities are greater now.
    But don't fool yourself, the US Armed forces are just as a threat towards Russia as it was towards the Soviet Union...You know what the US aims are.
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:40 am

    A Kirov class vessel has the potential to show the flag or operate as the core of a carrier group, for which large numbers of a range of different types of missiles would be useful.
    You know, showing the flag means nothing in a shooting war.
    In peace time, "show the flag" effect of a battlecruiser is the same wheter it has Granits or UKSKs.

    The Oscar is and always was simply the backbone of an attack on a US carrier group. This role has diminished somewhat, but remains and might be transferred to a capablility against Chinese carriers... or Japanese ones.
    100% agreed. However, in the 21st century warfare, land attack is an extremely important mission and is a requirement for the Oscars (and submarines in general).

    You are assuming the SM-315 takes up the same space as a single SM-225A, which is a rather dubious assumption in my opinion.
    I am not assuming. The SM-315 are actually smaller than the SM-225A. They will fit in nicely without extensive refit. However, the current SM-315 can take Onyx only (no Kaliber), but I am sure they can solve that problem
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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:49 am

    Are you suggesting that the Russians shared all the technology of the Yakhont to India?

    Yakhont, Onyx, Brahmos, Bolid and any other unknown offshoots are a family of missiles (just like the Klub). Yakhont was being developped in solo by the Russians and was displayed at a MAKS show in Moscow during the nineties. Later on a joint venture was established with the indians to develop the Brahmos. The Brahmos will not be used by the Russians who will use other members of the "Yakhont" family.
    We know there is an export Yakhont (Syria, Vietnam). We know Brahmos is also available for export to third party countries.
    We don't know much about the Russia-only members of that missile family such as the Onyx.
    I don't think every bit of technology (developped in Russia) is being made available for the Brahmos development. But everything that is developped at Brahmos can be made available to the Russia-only versions, and that includes land-attack version.

    Why spend money making Oniks able to hit land targets when Klub can do it from 2,000km?
    The only advantage that Onyx (land attack version) has is superior speed that can better penetrate sophisticated air defenses. Apart from that, Kaliber can do the job at a lower price.

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:52 am

    How many Yasens are there in service? There is a reason this upgrade is cheap and uses "existing launchers". It makes it a relatively quick and cheap conversion.

    In another ten years, there will be at least as many Yasens as Oscars. Being more modern and quieter they will be assigned the more difficult and dangerous tasks such as neutralizing the oponent's naval battlegroups. While still having serious capabilities against taskforces, the older Oscars will be more inclined towards the land attack mode.
    That is my opinion.

    I think the quieter Yasens would be better in the role of protecting the SSBNs from enemy SSNs.

    Onyx missiles are useless for that role. Akulas and Sierras will be fine for that kind of duties.

    The Oscars on the other hand would be much more valuable in stopping enemy carrier groups closing to strike range of Russia and launching air attacks with tactical nuclear weapons.
    Oscars primary role was anticarrier strikes indeed. Now that they are getting old, I see the Onyx armed Yasens as their replacement. The Oscars will still participate in that role if necessary, but massive cruise missile land strikes are increasingly gaining importance, IMHO that will be their main role in the future.


    Long range strikes on the US are better left to SLBMs....
    In a nuclear exchange, SLBMs will do most of the talking. However, ABM defenses are getting more and more significant. A mix of SLBMs and nuclear tipped cruise missiles (Kaliber/Klub and Kh-102) is a better deterent.
    In a conventional scenario with a non-nuclear state....well, just rememebr the decapitating cruise missile strikes at the opening stages of the Iraqi and Libyan conflicts.
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    According to this article:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 pm

    I think it is pretty clear the main reason behind this sudden Granit replacement, is not a sudden realization in missile inadequacy, but something to do with missile life,

    Oniks has been on the books for some time, if the Granit didn't work they could have replaced it a while ago.

    The fact that they are changing now suggests stocks of missiles are getting close to expiry dates.

    The news article above says the missiles will be fitted to existing launchers and that the upgrade will not be extensive but allow an increase in missile numbers. I personally think an increase of 50% in numbers would warrant it being called an increase in numbers. Tripling the number of missiles would warrant a comment about a large increase in numbers (300%).

    It is not a matter of dimensions. Extensive refit will be required to install UKSKs no matter what the dimensions are.

    The news report you posted said:

    In this case he emphasized that for designers it was possible to place rockets in the same containers, in which are located the rockets of "Granit" , moreover without the alteration of housing, and even with an increase in the ammunition.

    Sounds like a minimal refit using the same containers... if they were tripling the number of missiles would they say "...even with an increase in ammunition"? I would think they would mention ammo supply was tripled if it was.

    Hell yes. 24 missiles was awesome during the eighties. It is so-so in 21st century terms. It is mediocre for a 20,000 ton vessel if massive land attack strikes are called for.

    Massive land attack strikes are fairly unlikely first of all, and second... during the entire Libyan campaign the west fired a total of about 120 cruise missiles... a battlegroup with a single Kirov could carry 80, and the remaining 40 missiles could be launched from the 10-12 other vessels like destroyers likely to be in the group.

    It is rather more likely the future use of the oscar will be how it has been used in the past... a deterrent to US carrier battle groups.

    But don't fool yourself, the US Armed forces are just as a threat towards Russia as it was towards the Soviet Union...You know what the US aims are.

    Indeed, but the Russian navy no longer needs to spread communism and for the next decade will likely focus on protecting Russias various oceans/ports.

    In the 2020s they can expand the carrier fleet and start venturing out and expanding into the worlds oceans, but right now there are not enough small ships let alone big ships or even support ships to think about doing what NATO does.

    You know, showing the flag means nothing in a shooting war.
    In peace time, "show the flag" effect of a battlecruiser is the same wheter it has Granits or UKSKs.

    The point is that subs are not much use in showing the flag as they spend most of their time not being noticed.

    The advantage of the Kirov is that where Russia feels strongly about something, it means they can send the Kirov... to Syria for example. Now if Russia knew what NATO was doing in Libya it could have vetoed the no fly zone, which would have put the ball in NATOs court. They can choose to escalate or back down... escalating... say they declared a NATO mission to Libya that involved a nonUNSC sensured no fly zone, then Russia could react by sending a Kirov to Libyan waters on an official "visit". Then NATO will have to decide whether to start WWIII and fire on a Russian vessel, or back off.

    I rather think in the case of Syria they will back off... it is a case of being able to show the other side you really mean business and you are drawing a line in the sand, without actually starting a conflict by shooting at anyone.

    Imagine a Russian carrier group in the med during the NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo? It would have given Russia more say and likely led to a more balanced solution.

    100% agreed. However, in the 21st century warfare, land attack is an extremely important mission and is a requirement for the Oscars (and submarines in general).

    Russian and Soviet SSGNs have traditionally been anti ship with no capability against land targets. This might change or it might not. Anti ship missiles have been used successfully against land based targets... I remember an Indian attack with Soviet anti ship missiles that use IR seekers that hit large oil tanks in Pakistan... the oil had been heated by the sun during the day and were large enough for the anti ship missiles to get a lock on.

    I am not assuming. The SM-315 are actually smaller than the SM-225A. They will fit in nicely without extensive refit. However, the current SM-315 can take Onyx only (no Kaliber), but I am sure they can solve that problem

    The article you posted said they were using the existing launchers... perhaps they have modified the SM-225A to take Onix and Kalibr?

    akhont, Onyx, Brahmos, Bolid and any other unknown offshoots are a family of missiles (just like the Klub).

    It wasn't really a family. Bolid is Oniks, and Yakhont is Oniks with reduced range and smaller warhead that could be exported.
    Brahmos is a modification of Yakhont that adds land attack capability and also vertical launch... Yakhont and Oniks were traditionally angle launched.

    The Brahmos will not be used by the Russians who will use other members of the "Yakhont" family.

    Yakhont is an export model of Onix... there is no Yakhont "family". Russian Navy officials will call their missile Yakhont or even Brahmos, but it will be Onix. The Russian Navy has no reason to use downgraded export Yakhont missiles.

    The only advantage that Onyx (land attack version) has is superior speed that can better penetrate sophisticated air defenses. Apart from that, Kaliber can do the job at a lower price.

    It has three times the speed of Kalibr only when flying high... it is slower at lower altitudes.

    The point is that in 5-10 years there will be Oniks II that flies at mach 8... and including manouvering will be a much more formidible threat.

    In another ten years, there will be at least as many Yasens as Oscars. Being more modern and quieter they will be assigned the more difficult and dangerous tasks such as neutralizing the oponent's naval battlegroups. While still having serious capabilities against taskforces, the older Oscars will be more inclined towards the land attack mode.

    They will have a shortage of operational subs... any extra unit will be useful to them. Considering that in 10 years time even a Russian corvette will require something like Oniks to defeat it the more platforms carrying this weapon the better.

    Oniks includes stealth in the design and has titanium armour instead of heavier steel armour used in the Granit.

    Of course at high speed the Oniks will be easy to spot due to IR signature, but IR sensors are line of sight so flying very low limits their range. Radar can see further but low and fast make that problematic.

    Onyx missiles are useless for that role. Akulas and Sierras will be fine for that kind of duties.

    Operating near Russian SSBN bastions they could use Onyx missiles to stop carrier groups attempting a preemptive attack.

    Now that they are getting old, I see the Onyx armed Yasens as their replacement. The Oscars will still participate in that role if necessary, but massive cruise missile land strikes are increasingly gaining importance, IMHO that will be their main role in the future.

    Except that Oniks is anti ship... as is Yakhont. It is Brahmos that has land attack capabilities.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself why they want to add Oniks AND Kalibr... Kalibr is what they call their domestic long range (2,000km) land attack Klub. If Oniks could attack land based targets why bother with Kalibr?


    In a nuclear exchange, SLBMs will do most of the talking. However, ABM defenses are getting more and more significant. A mix of SLBMs and nuclear tipped cruise missiles (Kaliber/Klub and Kh-102) is a better deterent.
    In a conventional scenario with a non-nuclear state....well, just rememebr the decapitating cruise missile strikes at the opening stages of the Iraqi and Libyan conflicts.

    The real danger is the new ABM system as it is ship based, which makes it very mobile and very flexible.

    Moving it from the Med and the Black Sea to the sea off greenland could be a real problem... moving half a dozen Oscars with Oniks could be a credible solution that does not require any weapon to be fired... your move counters their move, so they need to decide to escalate or withdraw... it shows you mean business rather than just words or rhetoric.

    BTW this is just my opinion too... I would be quite happy to be wrong... if you look at the Granit launchers on the Kuznetsov they look much bigger than the picture you posted...

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    hoom

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    Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  hoom on Sun May 14, 2017 8:00 am

    Could be a (possibly intentional) mis-understanding:
    Q: So you are going to remove the Granit tubes & replace them with UKSK
    A: Nope, too expensive (we're going to insert 3* Kalibr into each Granit tube)
    -> No Kalibr!!!!

    But also they didn't upgrade Ustinov missiles so could be a similar 'do it quick' radar, ECM & boilers only upgrade
    Also have they actually started any of the Oscar class Kalibr conversions yet?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 14, 2017 11:09 am

    But also they didn't upgrade Ustinov missiles so could be a similar 'do it quick' radar, ECM & boilers only upgrade
    Also have they actually started any of the Oscar class Kalibr conversions yet?

    Ustinov uses Vulkan missiles which are produced in Russia, not Granits which are no longer in production.


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 14, 2017 11:24 am

    hoom wrote:Could be a (possibly intentional) mis-understanding:
    Q: So you are going to remove the Granit tubes & replace them with UKSK
    A: Nope, too expensive (we're going to insert 3* Kalibr into each Granit tube)
    -> No Kalibr!!!!

    But also they didn't upgrade Ustinov missiles so could be a similar 'do it quick' radar, ECM & boilers only upgrade
    Also have they actually started any of the Oscar class Kalibr conversions yet?

    Um there was never any plans to equip Antey's with Kalibers. Janes gooed hard here.

    The Project 949AM upgrade replaces the 24 P-700's with 72 P-800's (They made a huge mistake in confusing Kalibers with P-800's, the shipyard never said they are installing Kalibers nor did the Russian MoD only Janes said this and everyone took it has fact) which are better suited for what the Antey is expected to do the P-800's while half the power of a Kaliber, P-800 has better ceiling ability and go faster. since the job of the Antey would be to saturation attack faster and missiles with a higher flight ceiling make much more sense.

    More protected from interference and more secretive to enemy radar. There will also replaced with radio systems, sonar, navigation and weapons systems of a number of life-support. As a result, the boat will have to enhance properties and impact strength.

    That said the K-226 is finished.

    K-132 will be done 2019

    k-442 no word yet but it started to upgrade a year after K-132 so I assume around 2020.

    K-456 is set to start it's modernization to 949AM this year.

    No word yet if they will upgrade K-119, K-410, K-150 and K-186 or just stop after K-456.

    Which if they did would leave half of the Antey's at project 949AM standard and the rest none modernized.
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    Isos

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Isos on Sun May 14, 2017 2:09 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    The Granit replacement (48 missiles vs existing 12) will add a huge improvement on the K's anti-ship (& sub) capability, and give her much greater operational flexibility.   No commander is going to use a Granit against an enemy corvette, but with Oniks/Kalibres? No problem, let it rip.

    You are forgetting they have fighters that can use Kh-31 and Kh-35. Even Oniks won't be used against small Attack boat or corvette. Specially if you know that most west or chinese made corvette have very limited anti air defences, <10 km engagement range.

    Removing granits for more internal space and puting some uran for self defence is still better than the 12 granits. These missile needed to be lunched in coordination with Oscar's granits so that the volley will have 100% chances to destroy the battle groupe.

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 14, 2017 3:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    The Granit replacement (48 missiles vs existing 12) will add a huge improvement on the K's anti-ship (& sub) capability, and give her much greater operational flexibility.   No commander is going to use a Granit against an enemy corvette, but with Oniks/Kalibres? No problem, let it rip.

    You are forgetting they have fighters that can use Kh-31 and Kh-35.

    The advantage of ship-borne AShMs is that they are available for use at a moments notice, ie if tactical conditions change abruptly such as a shadowing enemy vessel turning hostile. Response time of aircraft is much longer, and is dependent on state of flightdeck operations, what aircraft are ready, and what loadout they carry.

    Kalibres also come in ASW variants, so including anti-sub Kalibres in the K's loadout gives her an all-new capability.  She would probably need targetting solutions from her ASW helos or escort vessels for long range attacks, but that is what datalinks and battle management systems are for.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 14, 2017 3:50 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um there was never any plans to equip Antey's with Kalibers. Janes gooed hard here.

    The Project 949AM upgrade replaces the 24 P-700's with 72 P-800's (They made a huge mistake in confusing Kalibers with P-800's, the shipyard never said they are installing Kalibers nor did the Russian MoD only Janes said this and everyone took it has fact) which are better suited for what the Antey is expected to do the P-800's while half the power of a Kaliber, P-800 has better ceiling ability and go faster. since the job of the Antey would be to saturation attack faster and missiles with a higher flight ceiling make much more sense.

    More protected from interference and more secretive to enemy radar. There will also replaced with radio systems, sonar, navigation and weapons systems of a number of life-support. As a result, the boat will have to enhance properties and impact strength.

    That said the K-226 is finished.

    K-132 will be done 2019

    k-442 no word yet but it started to upgrade a year after K-132 so I assume around 2020.

    K-456 is set to start it's modernization to 949AM this year.

    No word yet if they will upgrade K-119, K-410, K-150 and K-186 or just stop after K-456.

    Which if they did would leave half of the Antey's at project 949AM standard and the rest none modernized.

    Thanks, good info.  Interesting that you say the Pr.949AM tube inserts are for Oniks and won't launch Kalibers.  Given that both the 3C-14 VLS (surface units) and the tubes of the Pr.885s appear to be standardised for use with Kalibres/Oniks/Zircon,  I would have expected the 949AM to be the same, though of course, there may well be some dimensional constraints with the 949A tube inserts that rule out the use of kalibre?

    I guess we will have to wait until weapons firing test of the 949AMs to finally resolve this point.
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    hoom

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  hoom on Sun May 14, 2017 4:43 pm

    Ustinov uses Vulkan missiles which are produced in Russia
    I always seem to forget that Embarassed but I still think there could/should have been a Kalibr/Onyx upgrade & something with the S-300F.

    The Project 949AM upgrade replaces the 24 P-700's with 72 P-800's
    Well like Janes apparently, I tend to think of Onyx & Kalibr as essentially interchangeable since UKSK tubes can carry either.
    If it's Onyx only thats a little disappointing actually, I like the idea of Russia having the option to send an Oscar off to Syria & launch a crapload of Kalibrs on the Jihadis, or even just to have a mixed anti-ship salvo.

    That said the K-226 is finished.
    I thought that wasn't the full shebang upgrade?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun May 14, 2017 5:03 pm

    K-266 is currently on her way to her permanent base it finished like last month it was very very very recent.

    P-800's can hit land targets...They used them on ISIS surface forces did no one know this? even if they couldn't The job of the Antey is to counter surface ships that is the role for which she was built and be used for.

    If they really wanna use Kalibers they have kilos and other ships which can do that.

    Edit: They could use Kalibers, I am merely saying the shipyard who is modernizing these things or the Russian MoD never commented they are installing Kalibers on them and since K-266 was finished with 72 P-800's it's doubtful they are which again P-80's make more sense for a sub like the Antey
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 14, 2017 5:14 pm

    hoom wrote:If it's Onyx only thats a little disappointing actually, I like the idea of Russia having the option to send an Oscar off to Syria & launch a crapload of Kalibrs on the Jihadis, or even just to have a mixed anti-ship salvo.

    Agree, and I'd regret the inability to carry the Kalibre ASW variant, as this could be very useful for the 949AM as self-protection against enemy SSNs (though its probably doubtful that they have the sonar capabilities to detect and track a modern quiet SSN sufficiently to use such a long range missile/torp).

    Still, as Seig states, its not actually confirmed yet, so watch this space.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Granit tubes replacement with UKSK of Kalibr/Onyx

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 14, 2017 5:17 pm


    Sig is right, Anteis are for surface targets

    If they need missile farm for Kalibrs to target stuff on land they can always convert Oscar class

    Three of them are deemed to be obsolete as SSBNs due to noise but they would more than suffice as arsenal ships for low priority gigs like Syria

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