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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..........

    Weren't those just testing engines and they even said in that article "These will not be installed on ships".

    Don't know which article exactly.

    Buyans were using German engines. China has licensed production of that same type of engine. Navy opted to finish last 4 Buyan ships with Chinese engines and to move on to Karakurt class that will use local engines.  

    Matter of expediency. That shipyard is supposed to get a big contact for Karakurt class (among other things) but as long as production capacities are held up with unfinished Buyans they can't move on.  

    I was thinking of something else. So NM
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    kvs

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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:34 am

    http://seawaves.com/2017/02/04/production-of-engines-for-the-new-frigates-of-the-navy-promised-to-start-by-may/

    NPO Saturn marine turbine engine production (including for projects 22350 and 11356) from May of 2017.

    Yep, Russia does not make anything and is just an oil commodity banana republic. Such trash talk coming from
    Obummer and McShitStain indicates the exact opposite and here we see an an example.
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    PapaDragon

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    ODK to create a base for naval gas turbine construction in Rybinsk

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:43 pm


    ODK to create a base for naval gas turbine construction in Rybinsk

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2568481.html

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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:02 pm

    Russian Navy rids itself of dependence on Ukrainian engines

    Vladimir Putin has visited Saturn research and production association where he gave start to the tests of the domestically-made gas turbine propulsion system for the Navy

    RYBINSK, April 25. /TASS/. The problem of the Russian Navy’s dependence on imported gas turbine engines has been fully resolved, CEO of Russia’s United Engine-Making Corporation Alexander Artyukhov reported to President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday.

    The head of the Russian state visited Saturn research and production association where he viewed the assembly and testing workshop of shipborne gas turbine engines and gave start to the tests of the domestically-made gas turbine propulsion system for the Navy.

    The United Engine-Making Corporation’s chief executive, and also Saturn Managing Director Viktor Polyakov who were demonstrating one of the engines to the Russian president noted that now "the problem of dependence on Ukrainian engines" had been fully resolved in Russia.

    Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin noted that the project "is not just the launch of new engine production but marks the beginning of a new sector, gas turbine engine-building.

    "Up until now, all shipborne gas turbine engines were assembled only in Ukraine, in Nikolayev. Today is the day of the actual launch of a new sector, shipborne engine-making," the vice-premier said.

    As the Russian deputy prime minister said, the new sector was created within a record short period of time - actually within two years and a half from the day a decision was made.

    "These will be very diverse assemblies of various sizes, including for air cushion ships," Rogozin said.

    "We have never done this before. They [the Ukrainian side] thought that they had driven us into a corner and that we would be unable to finish the construction of frigates. But we have done this," the Russian vice-premier said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/943160


    Putin gave start on Tuesday to a large-scale project to launch the production of domestic shipborne gas turbine engines and get rid of Russia’s dependence on Ukrainian supplies for the navy.

    The engine production was launched on the premises of Saturn research and production association, a leading enterprise of Russia’s United Engine-Making Corporation. The tests of the M-35R-1 gas turbine assembly with the M-70FRU-2 engine for maritime programs were started at the enterprise in the presence of the Russian president.

    Putin gave command from the control room for the technical launch of the gas turbine assembly. Its tests are being held in a unique assembly and testing workshop built at the enterprise.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/943136


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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:03 pm

    M-70FRU-2 engine produced by PJSC NPO Saturn


    M-70FRU engine produced by PJSC NPO Saturn



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2568481.html




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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:36 pm

    http://theduran.com/russia-sanctions-fail-gas-turbines/

    Funny how the National Interest flopped flat on its face with its BS 5 year delay prediction. It seems some on this
    forum take the crap spewed by the National Interest seriously.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:25 pm

    If that's true, then why is Russia selling the 3 remaining Grigorovich-class frigates?
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:43 pm

    Kimppis wrote:If that's true, then why is Russia selling the 3 remaining Grigorovich-class frigates?

    That is a non sequitur. You assume that the only consideration is the engines. Also, cite your sources since I
    will not assume they are valid.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:45 pm

    Kimppis wrote:If that's true, then why is Russia selling the 3 remaining Grigorovich-class frigates?

    They aren't.

    India is buying 2 but those are supposed to be built fresh.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:11 pm

    Kimppis wrote:If that's true, then why is Russia selling the 3 remaining Grigorovich-class frigates?

    They wanted 4 of these two built within Russia and two more built within India was supposed to be the deal however india refused to pay the price russia wanted per hull. (india wanted them fresh)

    There was rumor Russia was going to sell india the hulls they built but those where just rumors
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:24 pm

    George1 wrote:M-70FRU-2 engine produced by PJSC NPO Saturn

    This is the new engine (the one Kimppis thinks doesn't exist), the other one was produced before 2014 by Saturn.

    Saturn finally got the large engine class testing facility it needed:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/92835/

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    Kimppis

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Kimppis on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:45 pm

    First of all, I didn't say that they don't exist. I was just asking questions.

    But WTF is going on? I thought it was already confirmed.

    This is from February: https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20170214/1487942166.html

    Russia could really use those 6 ships and they were originally planned for the Black Sea Fleet. So of course Russia wants them, as long as they can get them quickly enough. If they really have the engines ready, then it makes absolutely no sense to sell them to India.
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:08 am

    Kimppis wrote:First of all, I didn't say that they don't exist. I was just asking questions.

    But WTF is going on? I thought it was already confirmed.

    This is from February: https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20170214/1487942166.html

    Russia could really use those 6 ships and they were originally planned for the Black Sea Fleet. So of course Russia wants them, as long as they can get them quickly enough. If they really have the engines ready, then it makes absolutely no sense to sell them to India.

    I heard they issued correction of that later.

    Honestly I don't know what to make of this thing so personally I will just assume that they will go to Russian Navy until customer pick up the product.

    I have no energy to follow this ship class anymore, it's a soap opera at this point.
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:51 pm


    Data sheet:

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:03 pm

    Better pics from Flotprom

    M70FRU


    M70FRU-2
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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:59 am

    United Engine Corporation expands cooperation on marine programs

    As reported in its press release, United Engine Corporation (part of Rostekh State Corporation), in the framework of mastering the competence in the field of offshore gas turbine construction, the company commissioned a test bench for gas turbine engines located in the city of Dzerzhinsky MKB Horizont located in the Moscow region "- branch of JSC" NPC gas turbine construction "Salyut" (included in the UDK). Salyut works in this direction in cooperation with Rybinsk PJSC NPO Saturn.

    To ensure the current and future needs of the Russian Navy, the United Engines Corporation is working to develop the mass production of offshore gas turbine engines and units based on them. One of the important stages in the implementation of the import substitution program in the field of ship gas turbine engines was the construction in Rybinsk, at the facilities of PJSC NPO Saturn, an assembly and testing complex that allows all types of testing of shipboard units with imitation of real operating conditions. Until now, such a stand in Russia did not exist, but with its appearance, the UDK will be able not only to conduct all necessary tests of the engines being built, but also to ensure the repair of products manufactured in Ukraine and currently in operation on ships of the Navy.

    Taking into account the projected scope of work in the testing of repair engines, it is planned to use the bench base of JSC "NPC of gas turbine construction" Salut ". For this purpose, the JDC organized and financed the modernization of the testing station located in Dzerzhinsky (Moscow region). Within the framework of cooperation with NPO Saturn in the area of ​​responsibility Salyuta - certain types of testing of marine engines M70FRU-R ("reverse") and M90FR. After the completion of the first stage of the deep modernization of the stand in December 2016, the M90FR marine turbine engine that was in service was successfully tested and undergone restorative repairs at NPO Saturn. In addition to the testing of marine engines, the bench base of the ICB "Horizon" is designed for testing gas turbine installations for industrial purposes.

    "Joint work on marine issues is a new direction for Salyut in the transformation of the industrial model of the JDC," said Vitaly Klochkov, Deputy General Director and Managing Director of JSC "NPT of Gas Turbine Construction" Salut. " - For successful tests of the M90FR engine that has been repaired, long-cycle tests of the M70FRU reverse engine will follow. Modernization of the bench base of ICB "Horizon" will facilitate the timely implementation of the state defense order. "

    "The new stand allows testing products that work both on gas and liquid fuels," says Oleg Kuzhel, the director of the Gorizont branch of the ICB. - In addition, we installed a new turbo-generator specially designed for our stand with two connection points, which is used as a load device for testing. The control system of the stand has been changed to a more modern one, based on a new element base. It should be noted that the bench base of ICB "Horizon" allows you to test the entire line of foreign shipboard GTEs that are in operation on ships of the Russian Navy. "

    At the facilities of the Moscow site "Salyut", as well as its Omsk branch "OMO them. P.I. Baranova in cooperation with NPO Saturn mastered and deployed the production of gears for the central drive for marine power plants. In 2016, the first deliveries of components started, which will continue in 2017 - 2018.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2576288.html


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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:44 am

    TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines

    The bmpd comment.
    In fact, it is a question of the project of equipping three unfinished frigates of the modified project 11356 with the all-mode main power plant as part of two gas turbine units, each of which will consist of two M70FRU gas turbine engines with a maximum capacity of 14 thousand hp each. Production of PJSC NPO Saturn. The total maximum power of the GEM will thus be 56,000 hp. (Maximum capacity of the full-scale project of the project 11356 - 60900 hp).

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html


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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:32 am

    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines
    [b]
    .........

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They went from not getting finished, to being sold to being completed for RU Navy again.

    What matters is that they are back on the menu. thumbsup
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:21 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines
    [b]
    .........

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They went from not getting finished, to being sold to being completed for RU Navy again.

    What matters is that they are back on the menu. thumbsup

    I said this months ago...that this was the case.

    Ah well would be too easy to say I told everyone so~
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:50 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines
    [b]
    .........

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They went from not getting finished, to being sold to being completed for RU Navy again.

    What matters is that they are back on the menu. thumbsup

    I said this months ago...that this was the case.

    Ah well would be too easy to say I told everyone so~

    Say it freely dude, good info is always awesome to have thumbsup
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:38 pm

    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines

    The bmpd comment.
    In fact, it is a question of the project of equipping three unfinished frigates of the modified project 11356 with the all-mode main power plant as part of two gas turbine units, each of which will consist of two M70FRU gas turbine engines with a maximum capacity of 14 thousand hp each. Production of PJSC NPO Saturn. The total maximum power of the GEM will thus be 56,000 hp. (Maximum capacity of the full-scale project of the project 11356 - 60900 hp).

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They couldn't resist smearing some mental shit at the end. They claim the delay from designing the gear boxes is going to be longer than
    from developing the gas-turbine engines. The clowns at bmpd need to get an education and quick. They make it sound like Russia
    never built ship transmissions and gear assemblies, that Russia does not have the metallurgical capability. And that somehow a gas turbine
    engine is a simpler device than a gear box. God, what an idiotic pile of Chicken Little excrement.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:58 pm

    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines

    The bmpd comment.
    In fact, it is a question of the project of equipping three unfinished frigates of the modified project 11356 with the all-mode main power plant as part of two gas turbine units, each of which will consist of two M70FRU gas turbine engines with a maximum capacity of 14 thousand hp each. Production of PJSC NPO Saturn. The total maximum power of the GEM will thus be 56,000 hp. (Maximum capacity of the full-scale project of the project 11356 - 60900 hp).

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They couldn't resist smearing some mental shit at the end. They claim the delay from designing the gear boxes is going to be longer than
    from developing the gas-turbine engines. The clowns at bmpd need to get an education and quick. They make it sound like Russia
    never built ship transmissions and gear assemblies, that Russia does not have the metallurgical capability. And that somehow a gas turbine
    engine is a simpler device than a gear box. God, what an idiotic pile of Chicken Little excrement.


    It is not simply "gear box".

    It is a complicated transmission between the diesel engine, gas turbine and propeller.

    "Simply" to connect a gas turbine to a generator require design that incorporation the turbine with the generator AND extensive testing and validation all three together.

    One of the main problem is the vibration of the turbine / transmission / propeller / diesel engine.

    Means that the turbine has a critical frequency (multiple actually) all component has one as well, and the system together has a sepratated critical frequency.

    So, even if they manufacture a proto turbine ,reduction gear and propeller they still have to do extensive testing to prove that they won't destroy themselves and the ship.
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:25 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:TheArmenian informed us earlier about the resume of construction of the pr. 11356 frigates, which will now receive Russian engines.

    I put here this article from bmpd because it has a significant detail abou the domestic engines

    The bmpd comment.
    In fact, it is a question of the project of equipping three unfinished frigates of the modified project 11356 with the all-mode main power plant as part of two gas turbine units, each of which will consist of two M70FRU gas turbine engines with a maximum capacity of 14 thousand hp each. Production of PJSC NPO Saturn. The total maximum power of the GEM will thus be 56,000 hp. (Maximum capacity of the full-scale project of the project 11356 - 60900 hp).

    However, the main problem of this option is the development and manufacture of reducers for new gas turbine units, which can, in time, delay the completion of ships

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2644867.html

    They couldn't resist smearing some mental shit at the end.   They claim the delay from designing the gear boxes is going to be longer than
    from developing the gas-turbine engines.   The clowns at bmpd need to get an education and quick.   They make it sound like Russia
    never built ship transmissions and gear assemblies, that Russia does not have the metallurgical capability.  And that somehow a gas turbine
    engine is a simpler device than a gear box.  God, what an idiotic pile of Chicken Little excrement.  


    It is not simply "gear box".

    It is a complicated  transmission between the diesel engine, gas turbine and propeller.

    "Simply" to connect a gas turbine to a generator require design that incorporation the turbine with the generator AND extensive testing and validation all three together.

    One of the main problem is the vibration of the turbine / transmission / propeller / diesel engine.

    Means that the turbine has a critical frequency (multiple actually) all component has  one as well, and the system together has a sepratated critical frequency.

    So, even if they manufacture a proto turbine ,reduction gear and propeller they still have to do extensive testing to prove that they won't destroy themselves and the ship.

    Spare your pseudo-educated babble. A gas turbine engine is vastly more complex than any transmission.

    http://www.wartsila.com/docs/default-source/product-files/gears-propulsors/gears/wartsila-o-gears.pdf

    http://www.schaeffler.de/content.schaeffler.de/en/branches/industry/power_transmission/applications_5/marine_reduction_gear/marine_reduction_gear.jsp

    Look at the vast complexity of standard gears, no turbine blade can come close...says the teenager. Who cares about
    high temperature combustion.



    vs.



    According to the troll the device in the upper panel is more complex than the one on the bottom panel.

    Russia doesn't make anything, it is a gas station with nukes, Obama and McCain are lords of truth for Singular_Transform:

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:06 am

    kvs wrote:

    According to the troll the device in the upper panel is more complex than the one on the bottom panel.

    Russia doesn't make anything, it is a gas station with nukes, Obama and McCain are lords of truth for Singular_Transform:



    Relax, mate.

    Hyperventillation won't helps : )

    Examine a simple case, steam turbine connected to a synchronous generator with rigid connection.

    In this case you make the generator, ballance it on a pad - time consuming process, you have to spin up the rotor closer and closer to the critical rpm( and every time attach weights to diferent positions ), and when the amplitud of the vibration will be small you just jump over it : )

    You do the same with the turbine, and afterwards at the power plant you join the two and everything OK.


    But, with gas turbine the whole thing become more complicated.

    Im that case you have to design and TEST the generator + gearbox+ turbine together.

    It means that if you make a thermal power plant then you can sell generator independently from the steam turbine, but with gas turbine the generator has to came from the same design team/ company.


    Actualy that you can see on the picture is the rigging of the whole set for testing.


    If during the test you have problem, like vibration then go back to the design table and change something, modify / manuafacture new, and test again.
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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:07 am

    Saturn is not simply producing a GT engine, they are producing complete propulsion packages.  Eg for the Pr 22350, each vessel will have 2x M55R CODAG packages, each comprising the following:

    • M90FR gas turbine engine with transmission elements (593 million rubles ($9.6 million) per unit, delivery date - November or December 2017).

    • RO55 gearbox, VSM37/M55R transmission (299 million rubles ($4.8 million) per unit, delivery date - December 2017)

    • Metel-55 and Sheksna-90 control systems, VDA-56 vibration monitoring equipment (102 million rubles ($1.6 million) per unit, delivery date - July 2016)

    • 10D49 diesel engine with the Purga control system (108 million rubles ($1.7 million) per unit, delivery date - September 2017)


    Source  (source accredits TASS 2015 but provides no link).

    [Background info - in case forum members are not aware, the 11356 will be a lower tech COGAG (combined gas and gas) propulsion, with 2 GTs of same design.  This was a standard arrangement on Soviet GT vessels (eg Slava, Krivak, Udaloy).  The 22350 will have the more advanced CODAG (combined diesel and gas) where the engines (particularly the diesels) needs to run at different rated speeds depending on the propulsion mode, eg diesel only (low speed), gas-only (cruising) and diesel & gas (full speed).  Gearboxes need more speed reduction modes, and the control systems are more complex. ]

    If the Zorya and its subcontrators are capable of building a full CODAG propulsion package, I scoff at the idea that Saturn et al will not be able to do the same....

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