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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

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    flamming_python

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:00 pm

    I propose that you gentlemen settle your differences once and for all - with a Pokemon Challenge Battle.
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    sepheronx

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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:06 am

    artjomh wrote:
    GarryB wrote:So if they don't know what the fuck they are doing why are they building four at once... surely you make one and then when it works you make the other three right rather than risk fucking up all four and ending up with four systems that don't work...

    They know how to build them, they just don't have the industrial capacity/tools to build them.

    They are currently creating that capacity in order to start building the actual goods at a later date.

    How long do you think it will take to build/tool the facility to create the needed components?

    I remember seeing photos on sdelanounas.ru of various diesel engines used with various different performances (Russian made).  But outside of that, don't know much else.
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    medo

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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  medo on Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:23 pm



    Russian corvette Gremyashy receive Russian diesel engines instead of German ones.

    Austin

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Austin on Thu May 05, 2016 1:52 pm

    As long as they are building Corvette and Frigate of other class it is fine.

    Now their main issue with frigate is it uses GT Ukraine Engine both 1135.6 and 20350 class and that is the Achilles Heel.

    The earliest Russian engine will be available of that class is by 2020 , hence the delay in 20350 and cancelling of any new 1135.6 class

    wilhelm

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  wilhelm on Wed May 11, 2016 10:04 am

    - Is there a program of import substitution in engine?
    - The program has also actively implemented. As I said, there are several players who, with the assistance Minpromtorga design and preparing to start production of the major ship systems: diesel generator sets, gas turbine units, main propulsion systems. Test samples and prototypes have already made, we hope to begin mass production until 2018. In this case, the USC will be their main customer.
    - Who will produce the engines?
    - Work on the turbine engines of the Russian manufacture is conducted in Rybinsk on "Saturn", we expect to receive their engines from 2018 for gas turbine gearboxes will be made of the St. Petersburg factory "Star". Also work on import substitution, but the ship's diesel engines is to Kolomna near Moscow plant. We are working on localization and production of diesel engines imported brands.

    Interesting.
    So the first prototypes and test models have been produced for the locally manufactured naval gas turbines, with delivery set for 2018.
    Good news.

    Also, it appears a licence is to be taken out to locally manufacture previously imported marine diesel engines.
    This is not a bad idea when there is no up-to-date local analogue, and is a tried and tested way that a few other countries, such as South Africa, got around certain sanctions. As long as it is used then as a means to an end, such as a breathing space or injection of new technolog/methods that do result in a local analogue in the end.
    Unless I have that last meaning wrong?
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    zg18

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  zg18 on Fri May 20, 2016 6:50 pm

    Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 12:31 am

    zg18 wrote:Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.

    Nice! russia

    Reading some threads one gets the impression that this sort of thing is some show stopper challenge for Russia.
    Russia can make some nice big gas turbine engines also. Of course, they have to design, prototype and test them
    which takes too much time for internet experts.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 1:52 am

    kvs wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.

    Nice!   russia

    Reading some threads one gets the impression that this sort of thing is some show stopper challenge for Russia.
    Russia can make some nice big gas turbine engines also.   Of course, they have to design, prototype and test them
    which takes too much time for internet experts.

    Those are diesel, not turbine engines Smile

    It should be DDA12000 "Automated diesel unit", which is basically just two "old" 16D49 engines together with gearbox in mid. New generation of diesels and substitute turbine engines are not even close to be ready, especially turbines.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 3:56 am

    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.

    Nice!   russia

    Reading some threads one gets the impression that this sort of thing is some show stopper challenge for Russia.
    Russia can make some nice big gas turbine engines also.   Of course, they have to design, prototype and test them
    which takes too much time for internet experts.

    Those are diesel, not turbine engines Smile

    It should be DDA12000 "Automated diesel unit", which is basically just two "old" 16D49 engines together with gearbox in mid. New generation of diesels and substitute turbine engines are not even close to be ready, especially turbines.

    Read what I wrote again. Look for the word "also". And don't dismiss these engines as old trash. You don't know
    what you are talking about.

    http://www.uk-odk.ru/rus/products/marine_engine/

    Those engines must be vapourware according to you. Russia can't make anything. Russians are all idiots. Obama told you
    so.

    Bugger off.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 4:11 am

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    Militarov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 4:31 am

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.

    Nice!   russia

    Reading some threads one gets the impression that this sort of thing is some show stopper challenge for Russia.
    Russia can make some nice big gas turbine engines also.   Of course, they have to design, prototype and test them
    which takes too much time for internet experts.

    Those are diesel, not turbine engines Smile

    It should be DDA12000 "Automated diesel unit", which is basically just two "old" 16D49 engines together with gearbox in mid. New generation of diesels and substitute turbine engines are not even close to be ready, especially turbines.

    Read what I wrote again.   Look for the word "also".    And don't dismiss these engines as old trash.  You don't know
    what you are talking about.  

    http://www.uk-odk.ru/rus/products/marine_engine/

    Those engines must be vapourware according to you.   Russia can't make anything.  Russians are all idiots.  Obama told you
    so.

    Bugger off.

    First of all, where did i exactly "dismiss these engines as old trash"? I said "old", which they sort of are, that engine is based on USSR diesel engine technology from 80s. They ended up being installed in these ships due to sanctions, simple as that, if there were no sanctions MTUs would still prevail. I am not sure why are you bitching on me and not Russian MoD here like its my fault somehow...

    Both М70ФРУ and М75РУ are using some Ukrainian components. At this moment Russia does not have navalised turbine engine in production on its own, production in Rybinsk is yet to start when all components beside actual turbine are being replaced with domestic ones. In late 2014. it was annoynced that replacement of those components will happen in "2 to 3 years".

    For that part how i "dont know what i am talking about" you will have to excuse me, i spent most of my life in military overhaul facility with my father, my field in engineering might not be mechanical but i know alot more than you might imagine.

    "Those engines must be vapourware according to you.   Russia can't make anything.  Russians are all idiots.  Obama told you
    so.

    Bugger off."


    Nice arguments right there. Do something mature like that once more and i will block you.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 4:48 am

    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Russia: Full steam ahead for Russia's import substitution as navy gets new Moscow-built engines



    Two brand new Russian-made engines were installed in the hull of a Gremyashchy-class navy corvette inside the Severnaya Verf shipyard in Saint Petersburg on Thursday.

    Nice!   russia

    Reading some threads one gets the impression that this sort of thing is some show stopper challenge for Russia.
    Russia can make some nice big gas turbine engines also.   Of course, they have to design, prototype and test them
    which takes too much time for internet experts.

    Those are diesel, not turbine engines Smile

    It should be DDA12000 "Automated diesel unit", which is basically just two "old" 16D49 engines together with gearbox in mid. New generation of diesels and substitute turbine engines are not even close to be ready, especially turbines.

    Read what I wrote again.   Look for the word "also".    And don't dismiss these engines as old trash.  You don't know
    what you are talking about.  

    http://www.uk-odk.ru/rus/products/marine_engine/

    Those engines must be vapourware according to you.   Russia can't make anything.  Russians are all idiots.  Obama told you
    so.

    Bugger off.

    First of all, where did i exactly "dismiss these engines as old trash"? I said "old", which they sort of are, that engine is based on USSR diesel engine technology from 80s. They ended up being installed in these ships due to sanctions, simple as that, if there were no sanctions MTUs would still prevail. I am not sure why are you bitching on me and not Russian MoD here like its my fault somehow...

    Both М70ФРУ and М75РУ are using some Ukrainian components. At this moment Russia does not have navalised turbine engine in production on its own, production in Rybinsk is yet to start when all components beside actual turbine are being replaced with domestic ones. In late 2014. it was annoynced that replacement of those components will happen in "2 to 3 years".

    For that part how i "dont know what i am talking about" you will have to excuse me, i spent most of my life in military overhaul facility with my father, my field in engineering might not be mechanical but i know alot more than you might imagine.

    "Those engines must be vapourware according to you.   Russia can't make anything.  Russians are all idiots.  Obama told you
    so.

    Bugger off."


    Nice arguments right there. Do something mature like that once more and i will block you.

    You were the one who got your panties in a bunch with my post and proceeded to accuse me of saying something that I did not
    say. Now that I have posted information on the M90FR replacement you ignore it and continue to claim that all Russian gas turbine
    engines have Ukrainian components. Without a shred of proof.

    So my use of "bugger off" is right on target. You are full of it. What's your interest in Russia anyway. The same of as that of
    some Banderite?

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 21, 2016 5:22 am

    Well, Militarov stated that the engines you mentioned "turbine" are partially obtained parts from Ukraine, which unfortunately is quite true. And in my opinion, the use of these two older diesel engines is actually smart and a good alternative to what they cannot get because well, it will provide the power needed and propulsion needed to make their ships work, and it is domestic, so it is good. If need be, they may just find methods of increasing its capabilities to make it more effective for other ships. I mentioned there were possibilities of work around and this is it. And that is good as it will get ships working, which is more important. As for the turbines, well, they will get them working. Militarov isn't stating that they are not doing anything. He is stating that the engines are not ready yet due to the fact that they have to replace the Ukrainian components with Russian ones. If they end up rushing it, they will end up the Chinese route with sub par quality components on the turbines which may end up as a problem.

    But you are also correct in stating that this is a good move and proves that Russia does indeed make what it is needed and prevails in doing so. The engines may be old, but it is old design not old in built.

    I got a question though: If these engines are indeed fully Russian built and has been for years as Militarov states, then how come they are talking of it as part of import substitution since these engines were apparently built for Steregushchiy corvettes as well:
    http://survincity.com/2012/04/kolomna-plant-sent-to-the-shipyard-diesel-diesel/
    http://articles.maritimepropulsion.com/article/Russian-Corvette-Steregushchiy-1081.aspx

    So how come this is news now?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 5:38 am

    [quote="kvs"]
    Militarov wrote:

    You were the one who got your panties in a bunch with my post and proceeded to accuse me of saying something that I did not
    say.   Now that I have posted information on the M90FR replacement you ignore it and continue to claim that all Russian gas turbine
    engines have Ukrainian components.   Without a shred of proof.

    So my use of "bugger off" is right on target.  You are full of it.  What's your interest in Russia anyway.  The same of as that of
    some Banderite?


    M90FR will be first Russian navalised gas turbine without foreign components... person with average IQ can figure out that engines from early 2000s had Ukrainian components. Now we wouldnt make new engine to get rid of Ukrainian components if we already had them, wouldnt we?

    Russian naval turbines always had Ukrainian parts, its USSR heritage and if it wasnt for these sanctions i wouldnt change for years. Turbine engine is not just turbine itself, but gearbox, "clutch", transmission segments...you cant simply take aircraft engine and shove it into ship.

    "Without a shred of proof. " - wont even reply to this, whole forum is well aware of this issue except you somehow it seems. We had multiple lengthly discussions on this matter on forum here.

    Yes, its me Poroshenko /wave -.-




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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 5:41 am

    http://www.npo-saturn.ru/?rssid=1224074863&sat=6&slang=1

    Militarov's claim that the M70FRU and the M75RU have Ukrainain parts is a Banderite lie. He is spouting off
    Banderastani BS about how these engines developed by Saturn are "creamed off" Ukrainian designs. But I have
    not seen any physical evidence of Banderastani versions of the M70FRU and M75RU. The whole point of building
    these two engines was to wean Russia off from Banderastani dependence.

    The M90FR replacement has progressed far. But there is lots of BS tossed around on this board and elsewhere how
    Russia can't do anything.

    The whole discussion initiated by Militarov is insanely retarded. NPO Saturn is not some 2nd rate company that
    does not have the gas turbine and jet engine knowhow to make 100% Russian engines. Marine gas turbines are
    less challenging projects than jet engines such as the upcoming engine for the PAK-FA. Saturn can deliver marine
    gas turbines in three years. Given its existing production it knows what testing regime to apply to the M90FR
    replacement.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 21, 2016 5:48 am

    I don't see anyone stating as such KVS. It was more like that it will take time for the replacement components, not that they cannot do it.

    But regardless, could anyone answer my last question?

    The 20380 used previous 4x of these engines. So why is this using 2? Does it use Turbines as well? 20380 first model made was with 2x turbines and 2x these 16D49 engines but afterwards, the others were made with 4x16D49 engines. As well, are they indeed 100% Russian? The ones in the video look like brand new so I assume they are.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 6:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:I don't see anyone stating as such KVS.  It was more like that it will take time for the replacement components, not that they cannot do it.

    But regardless, could anyone answer my last question?

    The 20380 used previous 4x of these engines.  So why is this using 2? Does it use Turbines as well? 20380 first model made was with 2x turbines and 2x these 16D49 engines but afterwards, the others were made with 4x16D49 engines.  As well, are they indeed 100% Russian?  The ones in the video look like brand new so I assume they are.

    Reread his post. He clearly states that my link to these two engines ignores that they have Ukrainian parts.

    BTW, the M90FR is not some 100% Ukrainian engine:

    http://nddb.kirovold.ru/content.php?page=nhhfnnrj_eng&id=3

    Long before the events in Ukraine, the Russian Government and the military industrial complex were concerned about the issues regarding import substitution in order to become as independent as possible from foreign suppliers. Therefore, back in 2006, state trials were completed for the M90FR engine (producing 27,500 hp) developed by the Turborus firm, of which 40% belonged to the Ukrainian company Zorya–Mashproekt, and the remaining Russian share was divided between NPO Saturn and Avrora, a well-known designer of automated control systems for surface ships.

    The Ukrainian contribution to the M90FR was the gearbox and the test stand. NPO Saturn did not have a test stand for such a large engine since the USSR
    facilities were in Ukraine. From every freaking article on the Gorshkov delay the spin is that the M90FR is some 100% Ukrainian engine. Now that Saturn
    has the necessary infrastructure it can produce 100% of the M90FR in Russia. But the reports on this replacement indicate that Saturn is not just
    moving the production of all the parts to Russia. It is overhauling the whole design. The re-development work is completed and they are going to
    produce the prototypes by early 2017.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat May 21, 2016 6:06 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Yes, its me Poroshenko /wave -.-
    cheers
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 21, 2016 6:06 am

    OK, thanks.

    But what about my question on these 16D49 engines?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 6:16 am

    sepheronx wrote:Well, Militarov stated that the engines you mentioned "turbine" are partially obtained parts from Ukraine, which unfortunately is quite true.  And in my opinion, the use of these two older diesel engines is actually smart and a good alternative to what they cannot get because well, it will provide the power needed and propulsion needed to make their ships work, and it is domestic, so it is good.  If need be, they may just find methods of increasing its capabilities to make it more effective for other ships.  I mentioned there were possibilities of work around and this is it.  And that is good as it will get ships working, which is more important.  As for the turbines, well, they will get them working.  Militarov isn't stating that they are not doing anything.  He is stating that the engines are not ready yet due to the fact that they have to replace the Ukrainian components with Russian ones.  If they end up rushing it, they will end up the Chinese route with sub par quality components on the turbines which may end up as a problem.

    But you are also correct in stating that this is a good move and proves that Russia does indeed make what it is needed and prevails in doing so.  The engines may be old, but it is old design not old in built.

    I got a question though: If these engines are indeed fully Russian built and has been for years as Militarov states, then how come they are talking of it as part of import substitution since these engines were apparently built for Steregushchiy corvettes as well:
    http://survincity.com/2012/04/kolomna-plant-sent-to-the-shipyard-diesel-diesel/
    http://articles.maritimepropulsion.com/article/Russian-Corvette-Steregushchiy-1081.aspx

    So how come this is news now?

    Ty! How comes i always end up being called US/Ukrainian troll or something...

    Well Chinese engines are direct copy of German MTU-s, they should be fine, but i wouldnt want myself depending on Chinese spares either tbh.

    Those are decent engines, might not be on pair with latest Western diesels but they need to put something in those ships, and these are good enough. As they at least can always provide maintenance without having to depend on someone.

    Not sure why is it news now, we knew they would install these engines since like late 2014.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 21, 2016 6:18 am

    How come no one is answering my question? I asked like twice or three times now?

    These engines, 16D49, are they 100% made in Moscow? And as well? And why is it TWO of these engines and not 4 like on the other ships that these superseded.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 6:19 am

    sepheronx wrote:I don't see anyone stating as such KVS.  It was more like that it will take time for the replacement components, not that they cannot do it.

    But regardless, could anyone answer my last question?

    The 20380 used previous 4x of these engines.  So why is this using 2? Does it use Turbines as well? 20380 first model made was with 2x turbines and 2x these 16D49 engines but afterwards, the others were made with 4x16D49 engines.  As well, are they indeed 100% Russian?  The ones in the video look like brand new so I assume they are.

    Could be that when they said "two engines" they refer to two x engine complex with gearbox, which are 2, but 4 engines in total.

    DDA12000 "Automated diesel unit" 2x16D49, now from whati could figure they are to fit 2 of these sets, which should bring it to 4 engines in total.


    Last edited by Militarov on Sat May 21, 2016 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Sat May 21, 2016 6:26 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    I got a question though: If these engines are indeed fully Russian built and has been for years as Militarov states, then how come they are talking of it as part of import substitution since these engines were apparently built for Steregushchiy corvettes as well:
    http://survincity.com/2012/04/kolomna-plant-sent-to-the-shipyard-diesel-diesel/
    http://articles.maritimepropulsion.com/article/Russian-Corvette-Steregushchiy-1081.aspx

    So how come this is news now?

    The Gremyashchy class corvette was supposed to use the German MTU engines in a CODAD configuration (two diesel engines for a single propeller).
    So now the MTU engines have been replaced with Russian built ones. There was lots of stink about the loss of access to the MTU
    engines as something that would leave Russia dead in the water as well. As if Russia's can't build diesel engines. But of course when
    replacements are delivered we have resident "mechanical engineers" spewing BS that they are repackaged old junk. These "mechanical
    engineers" should bugger off.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 21, 2016 10:47 am


    C'mon guys play nice now, you both know better that that! angel

    As for engines, most important thing here is that engines are finally comming so there are no more excuses to delay new ship production.
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    hoom

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  hoom on Sat May 21, 2016 12:25 pm

    The 20380 used previous 4x of these engines. So why is this using 2?
    I'm a bit confused about the 20385 engine situation too.
    But at least for this I know the answer: a few weeks back they put the first pair in -> it does indeed have 4* diesel engines.

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