Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Share

    Austin

    Posts : 6327
    Points : 6727
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Austin on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 pm

    Great News on Marine Engine front

    Defense producer to substitute Ukrainian engines for Russian warships by 2017


    MOSCOW, July 14 /ITAR-TASS/ Russia’s engine-building defense enterprise Saturn will fully substitute marine gas turbine engines currently supplied by Ukraine for Russian warships with its own output by 2017, the company’s press office reported on Monday.

    “The enterprise has launched a large-scale import substitution program. We’ll produce all items that we used to import from Ukraine. Naturally, we hope that specialists from Ukraine will come,” Saturn CEO Ilya Fyodorov said.

    By 2017, the enterprise has undertaken to switch to a full production cycle for the manufacture of M90FR engines (27,000 horsepower) and create power units on their basis, the CEO said.


    Saturn enterprise is also preparing a basis for the trials of gas turbine engines for the Russian Navy. The enterprise has already developed M75RU (7,000 horsepower) and M70FRU (14,000 horsepower) engines, the company’s press office said.

    “We are confident that the tasks set to Saturn will be fulfilled by 2017 and our ships will surely not be left without motors. In the current situation, the issues of import substitution have come to the fore for us, considering their importance for the state’s security,” the head of Saturn said.

    Russia’s modern combat ships, in particular, Project 22350 and 11356 frigates, are still equipped with power units produced by the Zorya-Mashproekt enterprise in the Ukrainian city of Nikolayev.

    Back in the early 2000s, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy endorsed a concept of developing and using gas turbine engines and power units on the Navy’s surface ships to avoid dependence on Ukrainian supplies and assigned this task to the Saturn enterprise.
    President of the Russian United Ship-Building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said in June the company had a number of “interesting solutions” for the temporary replacement of Ukrainian power units aboard Russian warships but the ultimate goal was to transfer the production of basic power units to Russia.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:04 pm

    Russian engines to replace Ukrainian-made in Russian Navy ships by 2017

    MOSCOW, September 24. /ITAR-TASS/. Russian Navy ships will be equipped with Russian-made gas turbine engines instead of Ukrainian ones starting from early 2017, President of Russia’s United Ship-building Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov said on Wednesday. “We hope that at the beginning of 2017 first turbines, to be more precise, first prototypes will be through bench tests in Rybinsk and we will be able to begin mounting them on ships we are building for the Russian Navy,” he said. “Before 2017, we will have to either try to get what we have already paid for or will have to change the configuration of the ships these engines were meant for,” he noted.

    Austin

    Posts : 6327
    Points : 6727
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:30 am

    Gas turbine independence

    http://vpk.name/news/126860_gazoturbinnaya_nezavisimost.html

    Director General of JDC Vladislav Masalov about the prospects of Russian new generation engines

    February 18 at Bangalore International Exhibition kicked off Aero India-2015 with the participation of more than 30 Russian companies, including "United Engine Corporation" (UEC), a member of the state corporation "Rostec." CEO of UEC Vladislav Masalov told "Lente.ru" the plans for the exhibition as well as the promising developments in the coming years.

    "To Lenta.ru": Vladislav E., APC has recently been awarded a PTS, and Bangalore - the first major international exhibition for the company. What are the expectations?

    Masalov: UEC constant participant salon in Bangalore, as for us, cooperation with India is of strategic importance. But as an independent subject of military-technical cooperation (MTC) we are really here for the first time. Some time ago, the JDC was authorized to take care of engines within the PTS. Now we can conduct direct export of spare parts, spare parts and technical documentation for the previously supplied engines. We are interested not only in the increase in the supply of aircraft engines, but also in improving the speed and quality of after-sales service, building an integrated customer support system. In the future, this measure will implement strategies to create a single global service network of aircraft and helicopter engines.

    Cooperation with India realized UEC is mainly through the PTS. We supply ready-made AL-31FP engines for the Su-30MKI fighters, and breadboard. In addition, three years ago there was a long-term contract for an additional 920 engines, deliveries are to last for ten years. An important milestone in collaboration with Indian partners - the creation of the AL-55I, which is designed for installation on the first training aircraft of the Indian development and manufacturing.

    Contracts with the corporation HAL, suggest holding the ROC and the supply of AL-55I, manufactured at our facilities in Russia, as well as the subsequent organization of licensed production of these engines in India. Of work on the AL-55I aircraft for HJT-36 primary resource 300 hours completed in December 2013. Also, work is underway on the commissioning of the test stand under a license contract.

    Tell us what UEC present at this year's show?

    "United Engine Corporation" (UEC), will demonstrate a number of engines (in the form of samples and models), in particular aircraft engines RD-33 (installed on the MiG-29 SMT), the RD-33MK (installed on the MiG-29K and MiG-35) and model aircraft turbofan engines with thrust vector control, which is installed on the Su-35, as well as informational materials about their products. Information on the turbojet and gas-turbine engines of its production will provide Research and Production Association "Saturn".

    Recently there have been reports of the three points at once local production and maintenance of gas turbine power plants for ships (for replacement products and services "Zori Mashproekt"). This "Saturn", JSC "Kuznetsov" and "Ural Turbine Plant". Tell us more about how it will look on the cooperation of these products where the production will be carried out, where - after-sales service and repair, where - stands and development center?

    Import substitution program on marine "theme" we carry on "Saturn" in Rybinsk. It involves three key areas: a series of development projects for the establishment of marine gas turbine units (GTA) with our engines; technical re-equipment of production facilities, because in such volumes we used marine engines were not allowed, as well as the construction of the assembly and test facility for gas turbine engines (GTE) and the gas turbine units (GTA). That is, the "Saturn" will be the entire range of activities: the production and testing, and repair. In contrast to the issue with the import substitution of aircraft engines, here we have a complete set of technical documentation for developed engines - M75RU capacity of 7000 M70FRU capacity of 14,000, and an M-90FR capacity of 27,500 horsepower.

    Samara plant "Kuznetsov" in this program is not involved - they have a serious amount of work on the program for the Strategic Air Command. As for the "Ural Turbine Plant" (it is not included in the UEC), we are currently considering options for cooperation on maritime direction. In this project, despite the fact that a key performer is "Saturn", including many companies different departments, so the expansion of cooperation is under study.

    Since when production turboshaft engines "Klimov" for helicopters in Russia will fully replace the Ukrainian imports, while maintaining the scale of production programs helicopter?

    In the past year, "Klimov" collected the first ten engines entirely of Russian components. Therefore, it can be stated that the production of Russian engines mastered, and the task of further increasing production. While maintaining the scale of production programs helicopter we can fully replace the Ukrainian imports in 2017. In addition, now mastered the production of repair and group packages for repair TV3-117 engines in Russia.

    It was reported that in the early stages of a promising light transport aircraft Il-112B flight with engine TV7-117SM, not with TV7-117ST, as stated earlier. When the engine is ready TV7-117ST?

    We are conducting routine work to create motor TV7-117ST within the agreed terms of reference for carrying out R & D, and they hope that the first Il-112V fly with these engines. Our cooperation is defined in UEC project and the first prototypes of TV7-117ST for the initial batch of aircraft is manufactured in 2018..

    When you are ready to PD-14 engine and when it reached its readiness for mass production?

    We are now at the stage of prototype testing engine and separate units. The first half of 2015 are planned flight tests PD-14 flying laboratory IL-76LL, as well as a high-altitude test stand CIAM. Total program of engineering and certification tests will be made 14 engines. Date of receipt of the certificate IAC AR - April 2017. Next - production. On the Prototype specifications were confirmed all the basic parameters, which confirms the readiness of the engine to the special sorts of tests.

    When you are ready, "the engine of the second stage" for the fifth-generation fighter PAK-FA and how it will look on the cooperation of its release?

    Technical design of the engine of the 2nd stage for the PAK FA is made, and is currently being developed design documentation for prototyping engine. In 2015, the first engine to be made demonstrator. Work on the engine for the PAK FA are conducted in full compliance with state contract, and today we are in the chart.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10515
    Points : 10992
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Fri May 29, 2015 11:46 pm

    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 348
    Points : 369
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:56 am


    OMSK, June 3./TASS/. Russia cannot complete the construction of some naval ships as Ukraine has suspended supplies of gas-turbine engines, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

    "We cannot finish the construction of surface ships for the Russian Navy as supplies [of gas-turbine engines] have been stopped," Rogozin said in the Siberian city of Omsk.



    He said within the import substitution plan, Russia plans to launch the production on 186 items that were earlier produced in Ukraine, first of all gas-turbine engines.

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:20 pm

    runaway wrote:

    OMSK, June 3./TASS/. Russia cannot complete the construction of some naval ships as Ukraine has suspended supplies of gas-turbine engines, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

    "We cannot finish the construction of surface ships for the Russian Navy as supplies [of gas-turbine engines] have been stopped," Rogozin said in the Siberian city of Omsk.



    He said within the import substitution plan, Russia plans to launch the production on 186 items that were earlier produced in Ukraine, first of all gas-turbine engines.

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No

    Russia is already testing gas turbine engines for ships. So the 2018 mark may be even off and could be earlier. Or the gas engines are not the right type for these two ships and will have to look elsewhere or design a new ship. This was Russia's fault entirely, as they relied on importing, like I pointed out is a major issue for a long time prior to this and many losers on here called me stupid for it. Guess who was right in the end?

    calripson

    Posts : 138
    Points : 163
    Join date : 2013-10-26

    Gross Incompetence

    Post  calripson on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:21 am

    How long ago was the Orange Revolution ? To rely on Ukraine to supply critical military components till 2014 is pure and absolute incompetence. Also, if Russia wants to replace those gas turbines in 6 months instead of 3 years just turn to China. I can guarantee they can knock off a copy of those Ukrainian turbines in 1/5 the time it will take Rogozin et al to accomplish it.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:02 am

    I remember reading on sdelanounas of a Diesel electric engine for ships that is undergoing tests. I cannot find it now as it was not listed under shipbuilding and it was a month or two ago. But point is, they have it, at least for certain ships. I don't see how they cannot retrofit the engines to other platforms.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:56 am

    The problem is that your advice would have led to a self fulfilling prophesy...

    What I mean is that if Russia had just cut all military ties with the Ukraine then the Ukraine would have a justifiable reason to cut off from Russia and so the coup would not have been needed, the Crimea would still be Ukrainian and all of the Ukraine would be looking west... before you know it the Ukraine would have done everything it could to kick the Russian fleet out of Sevastopol and get NATO ships in there and they would not have needed to resort to the nazis they ended up resorting to to show their true colours... and there still would have been a delay while Russian companies developed products to fill the gap.

    Playing the way they did they gave the Ukraine every chance to realise that Russia is not going anywhere and good relations with a neighbour are better than bad ones... it is not like either country can move out.

    It is sad that the Ukrainian companies are being forced to stop trading with their biggest customer, but at the end of the day it is their choice and they have clearly made it.

    Russia just needs to deal with that and realise that at the end of the day when the delay has passed and all is said and done they will have better control over their military supplies and will be spending less in the Ukrainian economy and more in their own...

    It is like the situation with lend lease during WWII... many in the west point to all the trucks that were sent to the Soviets and how they would have been crippled without them.... this of course assumes they could not build trucks for themselves. Of course they could, but if you are buying them from the west... why make your own. The resources not used making more trucks were used to make other things like tanks and planes etc, but at the end of the day if they didn't get trucks from the west they could have built them and just built fewer tanks and planes.

    It is the same here... if you were buying engines from the Ukraine there is no point in building the same yourself... now that the ukraine no longer supplies those engines it makes sense to now produce them, though they will have to set up production for them... preferably the same as the ukrainian engines to begin with as the ships are designed to use them, but later on it makes sense to develop Russian families of engines that are related and standardised and adapt future ships to the new engines...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    wilhelm

    Posts : 228
    Points : 232
    Join date : 2014-12-09

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:47 am

    runaway wrote:

    "We are planning to complete this [import substitution] work before 2018," the top official noted.

    Admiral Grigorovich class frigates (Project 11356) and Admiral Gorshkov class frigates (Project 22350) use Ukrainian gas-turbine engines, in particular.

    So will these badly needed frigates lay idle at the shipyards until 2018-19!? No

    It is always difficult with regards to translated articles or quotes, but it does look like he is saying that it would be in place before 2018.
    So he is using 2018 as a "by the latest date" which means probably sometime in 2017 production engines to be fitted into the hulls.

    If this is the reality, then to me, waiting for a year and a half/ 2 years, or 700 days, is a far better proposition than farming it out, even "temporarily", to another external source like China.
    "Temporary" arrangements often have a habit of becoming more "permanent" because of politics.
    And politics can change overnight, as we all know.
    Far better to wait the 700 days out (or less) and secure it within Russia.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10515
    Points : 10992
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:05 am

    United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is going to court to seek paid before the delivery of gas turbine engines (GTE) for the Russian frigate, told RIA Novosti on Monday, the press service of the corporation.

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150608/1068792281.html&usg=ALkJrhji8wQubYVqbQRmRHnRhg3G2HZQsw
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1570
    Points : 1608
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:32 am

    Frigates with new Russian power plants will have superior characteristics


    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150608/1068798974.html
    MOSCOW, 8 Jun — RIA Novosti. Russian frigates of project 11356 and 22350, which was supposed to equip the Ukrainian gas turbine engines (GTE), will receive the Russian power plant, surpassing Ukrainian counterparts, told RIA Novosti on Monday, the press service of the United shipbuilding Corporation.
    "The first three frigates of project 11356 and the first two ships of project 22350 is already equipped with GTE Ukrainian production. Subsequent frigates of both projects will be equipped with power units of Russian production with characteristics superior to Ukrainian counterparts," — said the press service.
    The launching of the frigate of project 11356. Archive photo
    © RIA Novosti. Igor Zarembo | Buy illustration
    USC will sue Ukraine for non-delivery of engines for frigates
    Work in this direction is expanded Rybinsk NPO "Saturn", which in cooperation with several Russian industrial enterprises already started the revision of existing Russian projects GTE. The production of the first Russian engines of this type is scheduled for late 2017 — early 2018, said in USC.
    It is also reported that there are "concrete decisions" on imports of gears for propulsion systems with GTE at the facilities of the St. Petersburg plant "Zvezda".

    avatar
    artjomh

    Posts : 150
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  artjomh on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:24 am

    Interesting news.

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3175

    Russian manufacturer Saturn, a subsidiary of the United Engine Corporation, started manufacturing all-Russian propulsion plants for the Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates, a Saturn employee told TASS on Monday. "We have launched the production of four M55R diesel/gas-turbine propulsion plants to power the two in-construction Project 22350 frigates serialed 923 and 924 (Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov respectively)," the source said.

    More details in hyperlink.

    I am not entirely certain if this is progress, so be very careful in sounding victory trumpets re: import replacement.

    Remember, M90FR turbine's compressors (the "hot" part) was always manufactured in Russia. The article does not specify whether the contracted for reduction gear is also ready to be manufactured in Russia and whether there is an actual test bench built in Rybinsk. Both of those things used to be made in Nikolayev. It is quite possible... even highly likely, in my opinion, that this is just something that Turborus/Saturn have been contracted to do, while the actual building part will hopefully come in several years, when the production infrastructure is ready. For now, I see no clear-cut evidence that the entirety of the M90FR turbine is ready to be manufactured and assembled in Russia.

    Caveat emptor, as they say.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:20 am

    I appreciate your caution as it is certainly well founded but the words all russian propulsion system... as opposed to all Russian engine which is what they were doing before suggests to me they are no longer dependent on the Ukraine for this propulsion "system".

    I think it is cause for celebrations as there was really no actual benefit for having these systems produced in another country other than saving the costs of setting up production and testing in Russia...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    artjomh

    Posts : 150
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  artjomh on Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:I appreciate your caution as it is certainly well founded but the words all russian propulsion system... as opposed to all Russian engine which is what they were doing before suggests to me they are no longer dependent on the Ukraine for this propulsion "system".

    Yeeeeeeah.... not really.

    All the article says is that they have started manufacturing the propulsion plant and that all elements of it (including previously Ukrainian ones) have been contracted to be manufactured and assembled in Russia.

    What it DOES NOT say is whether the previously Ukrainian components have been already successfully indigenized, or whether the contract for these components only exists on paper.

    Knowing first-hand how Russian industry operates, I'm voting for latter.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:48 pm

    So if it was only on paper, then what will they use then for the engines? They cant import them anymore. So they have no one else but themselves at this point.
    avatar
    Kyo

    Posts : 504
    Points : 551
    Join date : 2014-11-03
    Age : 68
    Location : Brasilia

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Kyo on Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:50 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I appreciate your caution as it is certainly well founded but the words all russian propulsion system... as opposed to all Russian engine which is what they were doing before suggests to me they are no longer dependent on the Ukraine for this propulsion "system".

    Yeeeeeeah.... not really.

    All the article says is that they have started manufacturing the propulsion plant and that all elements of it (including previously Ukrainian ones) have been contracted to be manufactured and assembled in Russia.

    What it DOES NOT say is whether the previously Ukrainian components have been already successfully indigenized, or whether the contract for these components only exists on paper.

    Knowing first-hand how Russian industry operates, I'm voting for latter.

    I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'll get into my own speculations too. Couldn't it be that Russia is now working on an all Russian propulsion system (with successfully indigenized components) with the help of migrant manpower from Zaporozye (with local machine-tools) and that Rogozin is keeping absolute secrecy about this for obvious reasons? If that is so, we'll not know for sure in the short run.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3147
    Points : 3270
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:00 am

    Kyo wrote:
    artjomh wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I appreciate your caution as it is certainly well founded but the words all russian propulsion system... as opposed to all Russian engine which is what they were doing before suggests to me they are no longer dependent on the Ukraine for this propulsion "system".

    Yeeeeeeah.... not really.

    All the article says is that they have started manufacturing the propulsion plant and that all elements of it (including previously Ukrainian ones) have been contracted to be manufactured and assembled in Russia.

    What it DOES NOT say is whether the previously Ukrainian components have been already successfully indigenized, or whether the contract for these components only exists on paper.

    Knowing first-hand how Russian industry operates, I'm voting for latter.

    I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'll get into my own speculations too. Couldn't it be that Russia is now working on an all Russian propulsion system (with successfully indigenized components) with the help of migrant manpower from Zaporozye (with local machine-tools) and that Rogozin is keeping absolute secrecy about this for obvious reasons? If that is so, we'll not know for sure in the short run.

    This issue is too important for "first-hand" stereotyping. If it is a priority, it will get done. All this "uncertainty" makes it sound like this is
    some sort of task beyond Russian capacity. The only problem is time.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:10 am

    What it DOES NOT say is whether the previously Ukrainian components have been already successfully indigenized, or whether the contract for these components only exists on paper.

    Unless there is a translation problem... which is certainly possible... the article says:

    started manufacturing all-Russian propulsion plants for the Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates,

    To be all Russian then they cannot contain imported components.

    It also says:

    a Saturn employee told TASS on Monday. "We have launched the production of four M55R diesel/gas-turbine propulsion plants to power the two in-construction Project 22350 frigates serialed 923 and 924 (Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov respectively)," the source said.

    So assuming two engines per vessel the four power plants in production now are for the next two frigates... they have started producing the engines for the two future vessels.

    That sounds pretty clear to me.

    What it DOES NOT say is whether the previously Ukrainian components have been already successfully indigenized, or whether the contract for these components only exists on paper.

    Knowing first-hand how Russian industry operates, I'm voting for latter.

    For it to be the latter they would have to state that they have started making the engines for the two future frigates, but some components have to be sourced from elsewhere because the Ukraine wont supply them and Saturn can't make them.

    Clearly what they seem to be saying is that now they can make them and plan to use them on the next two frigates they complete.

    Couldn't it be that Russia is now working on an all Russian propulsion system (with successfully indigenized components) with the help of migrant manpower from Zaporozye (with local machine-tools) and that Rogozin is keeping absolute secrecy about this for obvious reasons?

    Saturn can make engines... they likely have the capacity to make all the components, but have not bothered in the past because they bought the components from the Ukraine previously.

    They will likely have full spec details of the components already in their digital models of the engines... it would just be a case of setting up a production line for the extra components and then running that line for a bit to tweak it a bit to ensure the result is up to standard and then to just make them.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    artjomh

    Posts : 150
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  artjomh on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:55 pm

    Jesus Christ, Garry, did you even read what I wrote previously? Do I have a problem in my writing where everything I say appears crystal clear to me, but confusing to everyone else?

    A CODAG propulsion plant is not some self-contained box that you can start building as a single unit. It's not fucking Pinocchio where you take a piece of wood, take a chisel to it and, voila, it's ready. A CODAG plant is a combination of several different components: the gas turbines, diesel engines, reduction gear, plant automatics, etc, all connected together and outputting power to the shafts.

    Different companies make those components, some in Russia, others in Ukraine.

    After you make those components, you also need to assemble them in a complete plant and test it on land before shipping to the shipyard.

    Turborus has full technical documentation for the plant, but they don't have a production line for every component. So what they are doing is starting to manufacture some components that they can build (compressors, turbines, diesels) while building a production line for those components they cannot yet manufacture (e.g. reduction gear).

    They also don't need an assembly shop right now, only in 2017-2018. But they also cannot complete the engines until the assembly and testing line is ready, so they need to build one, which is not as simple as it sounds.

    So when they say "we started building it", they mean that "we started building what we can now and hopefully we'll have all the other production capacity in 2017".

    Saturn can make engines... they likely have the capacity to make all the components, but have not bothered in the past because they bought the components from the Ukraine previously.

    Knowing how to build D-18T does not mean you have the capacity to build Rolls-Royce Trent!!!
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:52 am

    A CODAG propulsion plant is not some self-contained box that you can start building as a single unit. It's not fucking Pinocchio where you take a piece of wood, take a chisel to it and, voila, it's ready

    Bad example... Pinocchio was a living puppet who was only lacking in not being real flesh... which ever way you look at it he was hardly just a piece of wood.

    The fact that the article calls them propulsion plants more than once including one time stating:

    four M55R diesel/gas-turbine propulsion plants to power the two in-construction Project 22350 frigates serialed 923 and 924 (Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov respectively

    In other words they are not talking about diesel engines and gas turbine engines... they are talking about diesel/gas-turbine propulsion plants... not just motors but complete propulsion systems, so no you don't need to explain:

    A CODAG plant is a combination of several different components: the gas turbines, diesel engines, reduction gear, plant automatics, etc, all connected together and outputting power to the shafts.

    I already understood that.

    So when they say "we started building it", they mean that "we started building what we can now and hopefully we'll have all the other production capacity in 2017".

    So if they don't know what the fuck they are doing why are they building four at once... surely you make one and then when it works you make the other three right rather than risk fucking up all four and ending up with four systems that don't work...

    Knowing how to build D-18T does not mean you have the capacity to build Rolls-Royce Trent!!!

    D-18T is built by Motor Sich... what has that to do with Saturn?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    artjomh

    Posts : 150
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  artjomh on Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:So if they don't know what the fuck they are doing why are they building four at once... surely you make one and then when it works you make the other three right rather than risk fucking up all four and ending up with four systems that don't work...

    They know how to build them, they just don't have the industrial capacity/tools to build them.

    They are currently creating that capacity in order to start building the actual goods at a later date.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:40 am

    They know how to build them, they just don't have the industrial capacity/tools to build them.

    They are currently creating that capacity in order to start building the actual goods at a later date.

    If that were the case then wouldn't the announcement be... we now have the capacity to build the bits and pieces previously made in the Ukraine... we are now going to start building one set so we can then test it to make sure we have gotten this all right and then after testing we will make three more sets for the ships with outstanding orders for propulsion systems...

    They are currently creating that capacity in order to start building the actual goods at a later date.

    I repeat from the article:

    a Saturn employee told TASS on Monday. "We have launched the production of four M55R diesel/gas-turbine propulsion plants to power the two in-construction Project 22350 frigates serialed 923 and 924 (Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov respectively)," the source said.

    They are starting production of four power plants for four naval vessels... sounds to me like they have all the tooling and production capacity they need to make what they need to make and are starting production of four systems now.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    artjomh

    Posts : 150
    Points : 184
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  artjomh on Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:If that were the case then wouldn't the announcement be... we now have the capacity to build the bits and pieces previously made in the Ukraine... we are now going to start building one set so we can then test it to make sure we have gotten this all right and then after testing we will make three more sets for the ships with outstanding orders for propulsion systems...

    Garry, this is clearly a cultural issue.

    You seem to be taking the wording of the press release at its MOST OPTIMISTIC interpretation.

    As an ex-Soviet, I've seen all that bullshit in the past and tend to take vague sounding announcements at their MOST REALISTIC, which is to say, the least favourable interpretation.

    Unless there is a clear cut evidence of something actually existing in physical form, NO AMOUNT of glorious announcements are not going to convince me and, when dealing with the post-Soviet industrial complex, I would strongly advice you to lose the rose-tinted glasses and be a little more sceptical of what people say, and trust in what people do and can actually demonstrate to you.

    You can take that as a general post-Soviet space life advice.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16513
    Points : 17121
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:43 am

    Smile

    I make no apologies in admitting I am a glass half full kind of guy, but I am familiar with the English language and suggest if your interpretation is correct then there was nothing to report in the first place.

    Without anyone on the inside stating as such we already knew they are in the process of developing and producing a Russian version of the Ukrainian/Russian propulsion systems for their Frigates.

    I would disagree I am taking the most optimistic view of the article... that would be that the engines will be ready any time now...

    Of course the standard set by the western media has a very low bar, but it is disappointing the reporting was not much clearer so there was less confusion.

    I admit to repeatedly being disappointed reading about this or that upgrade for strategic bombers yet we never get hard figures or information about what is actually being done...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:27 am