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Russian Navy: Status & News #154.455

    Russian Navy: Status & News #1

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:33 am

    The Navy has already stated that it will keep the Saint Petersberg as a test sub to test new weapons and systems, because it is basically fully functional except in terms of propulsion, so it means that it can be used for testing new equipment without having to bring an active sub off duty for the purposes of testing.

    Claims it is the best are no different from US claims the F-22 or B-2 are the best. Any battery option has its own risks... that is the nature of energy storage.


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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:11 pm

    To Mindstorm:

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion, and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    And wasn't Greece just trying to cancel the contract for the Type214 sub because of financial problems, now it's South Korea, what's wrong with that sub(Type214)?? No

    Austin wrote:I would wait till the final product with new batteries and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper Wink

    But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch

    That would depend on India's desires and time table.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  runaway on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:27 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch
    Yes, most certainly

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:20 pm

    Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.




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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:22 pm

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    By Austin not me. Neutral

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    Thanks for the heads up, i thought the Type214 and 212 had the same max depth, i wonder why they don't?? confused

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:11 am

    Austin wrote:Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Hmmm....Lets use the western term of battle proven/proven design, anyway if it ain't broken don't "fix" it. paratrooper

    Austin wrote:Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    I believe Mindstorm already cleared that up in the earlier post. study

    Austin wrote:Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.

    I fully agree. pirat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:37 am

    Kilo is a double hull sub which means it has larger wetted area needing more powerful engine and far more fuel/energy to get greater range compared to single hull submarine. Considering Fuel/Energy is a premium on conventional submarine double hull on SSK can have its own issue.

    Reason Russia moved to single hull Lada design that are smaller , ligher and can geting longer range for similar fuel as kilo.

    So the issue is its not broken lets not fix it does not arise , The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:55 am

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion,

    Hahahaha... funny. the AIP section is like the VLS section... look at any submarine design and point out the empty space with enough room to add vertical launch tubes for a dozen or more cruise missiles, or an entire propulsion system?

    The AIP section or VLS section can be added to the existing design... the original sub is designed with separate compartments and adding new compartments is kinda straight forward.

    and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    An AIP section would technically be the third propulsion system in the sub... a diesel electric generally has diesel and electric motors, which run on diesel and batteries respectively. This new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity so in many ways it is like a battery in that it is quiet and has no moving parts. BTW western AIPs use hydrogen and basically do the same thing... generate electricity like a battery.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

    The main problem there is that Russian torpedos can hit either sub no matter how deep they go, and being hit at 400m will crush a sub like a beer can... it is rather more important to not have to surface for almost a month than it is to be able to dive deeper... there is no benefit to diving deeper any more when you can't outdive the enemies torpedoes or depth charges or mines etc.

    In many coastal areas the water is often very shallow anyway.

    although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

    The export model of the Kilo will likely be offered with the export model of the AIP.

    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    The fact that they are pursuing it suggests the rumours of its failure are largely exaggerated.

    The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

    Kilo is a proven design in production... just like the Russian Navy is buying Talwars as well as new ships... both are effective, though the new generation systems are a generation ahead... it is like the PAK FA and Su-35S... they are making both... and not because the PAK FA is rubbish either.

    I think the main problem is that people in the west see Lada and they think old Italian crap... the Lada class SSK are potentially very powerful subs with electronics and sonar that is several levels above those fitted to other SSKs and comparable to those fitted to SSNs... the addition of AIPs and VLS just makes them even more competitive... the main difference between the Lada-M and an Akula will likely be top speed. Endurance will be largely dependent on the amount of food stored on board rather than other limitations.


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    TR1
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:04 pm



    Nice size comparison between the Gepard and a 671RTMK.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:13 am

    Unexpected good news!
    Burnyy is being returned to service!

    http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=138280

    According to the article, the propulsion assemblies from the Burnyy have already arrived at Kirovenergomash (who overhauled the Vikras turbines, which functioned flawlessly during trials). They will be repaired and delivered to Dalezavod, where the Burnyy has been tied up since 2005. The factory is planning to carry out similar work on another one of the Pacific's 956s.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:41 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    Nice size comparison between the Gepard and a 671RTMK.

    Victor III class next to Acula class?

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:55 pm

    According to the article, the propulsion assemblies from the Burnyy have already arrived at Kirovenergomash (who overhauled the Vikras turbines, which functioned flawlessly during trials). They will be repaired and delivered to Dalezavod, where the Burnyy has been tied up since 2005. The factory is planning to carry out similar work on another one of the Pacific's 956s.

    Excellent news... with the engines fixed up the Sovremmeny class were a handsome well balanced ship. I wonder if they might take the opportunity to replace the arm launchers with vertical launch tubes for Shtil-1? Probably too much effort to replace the Sunburns with UKSK tubes because of the problems of replacing an externally mounted missile system with an internally mounted system, but I would think the VLS for Shtil might actually take up less space than the arm launcher with its ammo handling system below deck.

    Victor III class next to Acula class?

    Akula and Victor III are the western codenames for those vessels, though the Russian Akula is called Typhoon in the west.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:19 am

    No modernization is planned, so no chance for VLS Shtil.

    I suspect we might get stuck without VLS Shtil on the 11356s as well :/

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:17 am

    Might be none planned, but during overhauls they often fit new stuff, and the old launchers require a lot more maintainence than the new bin launchers.

    Plus with the introduction of the new tube launched missiles for the Army the old rail launched models might go out of production.

    The focus for the Russian Navy is standardisation and unification of systems, weapons, sensors, and propulsion. It wont happen over night but it is certainly something that will have enormous benefits in the long term making these sorts of changes well worth it when possible.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:54 am

    Yeah but the VLS Shtil has not been actually used on any surface warship, and remains pretty much vaporware.

    And Dalezavod has never done that kind of work AFAIK.

    I would honestly not get my hopes up for any sort of modernization (past navigation equipment, that kind of small thing).

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