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    Russian Navy: Status & News #1

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    runaway
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:56 am

    So who´s the customers?

    "Foreign customers have shown high interest in Russia’s advanced Amur-1650 class submarine, state-run arms dealer Rosoboronexport said on Wednesday.

    "Of the nine countries that are planning to modernize or develop their submarine fleets…three have already chosen the Amur-1650 project", Rosoboronexport’s director Anatoly Isaikin said. He did not name the countries in question. "

    PLN China is one but the others? And ordering a sub that isnt working very well... I should chose 636.3 or perhaps the German 214. It can dive to 400m, which exceeds Lada´s 300m, but is not working fairly well and the customers is unhappy with the overall performance.

    No, my choise is the Swedish A26 which will be very good, but i think we still lack the Shkval type torpedo.





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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:33 am

    China is one of those three countries and I suspect Vietnam could be another one no matter 6 Kilo class they bought recently.

    Third might be Venezuela, they wanted those subs for quite a while now but they where not ready.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:20 am

    You may also add Algeria to the list of possible customers for the Harmonious boats (Lada).

    TR1, they may have actualy solved all the bugs and problems with the first unit (St. Petersburg). I don't see them restart construction unless they have solutions in hand.

    In my opinion, the main advantage of these low displacment (1760 T) boats over the Kilos is their low requirement for manpower. These boats go around the various missile treaties that prohibit the land deployment of long range land attack cruise missiles. With the 2000+ km range KALIBR these smallish boats (with miniscule crews) have a colossal conventional or nuclear beheading strike potential...But I will let Mindstorm elaborate on that further (I just hope he uses simpler english with shorter sentences so that we can all understand him Twisted Evil )

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:26 pm

    TR1 wrote:This is turning out to be a huge year for the RuNavy,

    If I am not mixing anything up (been a busy day), in 2012 we have seen/expect to see:
    Several new nuclear subs commissioned into the fleet;
    2 11356 frigates laid down;
    2 22350 frigates laid down;
    2 20380/20385 corvettes laid down;
    Mistral laid down....

    I'm sure I am forgetting something



    So 2012 passed, let's reflect on how much was pushed back by at least a year.
    Only 1 11356 was laid down
    Only 1 22350 was laid down
    No 885 subs
    1 955 sub, but work practically started many months before that.

    So, not so much of a huge year Smile
    Hoping 2013 delivers.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:50 am

    Mass production when the problems on the lead ship have not even been worked out, and the ship has not gone through trials following the latest modifications...hmm...consider me skeptical.

    They have already worked out all the bugs in the first boat and decided on the AIP and new propulsion to deal with the small problems they have found. The fact that they are going ahead suggest all the rumours of lots of problems were BS and that the solutions for those that were real have been found.

    I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

    It can dive to 400m, which exceeds Lada´s 300m, but is not working fairly well and the customers is unhappy with the overall performance.

    Being able to operate at a deeper depth is not a huge advantage... it would be much more useful to operate for longer periods without having to surface and the Russian boat has a significant advantage there too.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:42 am

    I would not call the problems small - the program has been stalled for years and repeatedly failed major parameters of testing.

    No solid news on the modifications working in full navy trials as of yet, so I remain skeptical.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:22 am



    A lot of misconceptions and plain mistakes circulate around both Pr. 677 "Lada" class and its latest export version "Amur-1650",i think it will be useful to delete them one time for all.


    Russian MoD and Navy's Command WILL NOT accept Saint Petersburg , the lead ship of the class on two main basis : underperforming propulsion at high regimes and inconstant/somewhat insufficient energy supply to some key components (among which main sonar).

    The Saint Petersburg has been already used as a tests specimen to validate the functions and sort-out all the problems related to any other system of the Lada class (in particular Lira main sonar showing performance's parameters by a good margin superior to those of any other passive and active sonar mounted on non-nuclear submarine worldwide) but NOT those related to energy storage and propulsion.

    The reason is very simple, "Saint Petersburg" was designed and constructed MUCH BEFORE the achievement and validation of two recent technological breakthrough in those segments :
    A new generation of Lithium-ion battery with energy capacity to volume/weight ratio several times greater than the best lead-acid mounted on foreign SSKs
    An almost revolutionary AIP ,based on hydrogen reforming from common diesel fuel aboard, much more silent, compact and safe than the competitor hydrogen-store based systems and capable to produce over 400 Kw against the 180 maximum of the best foreign competitor !!!


    http://www.stoletie.ru/rossiya_i_mir/sensacii_le_burzhe_929.htm


    Those two new systems will be mounted ,respectively, on the second ship and third ships (the construction of which was purposely frozen waiting for the completion and validation tests of those two systems).
    Kronshtadt will mount the Lithium-ion batteries while Sevastopol will mount both the Lithium-ion batteries and the AIP


    Amur-1650 will integrate the export version of BOTH of those two systems ,therefore if today it already vastly surpass all its competitors in the fire power, main sonar and acoustic/magnetic signature suppression department ,within 4-5 years ,with theirs integration, it will occupy a true league of its-own in the SSK market's sector.



    I rather doubt the western alternative subs are perfect either and will have problems too.

    Absolutely true GarryB Smile Not only they will have.... them had already had problems.
    Terrible experience of the Type-214 in Hellenic and Korean Navy service anyone ?

    http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec06-52.php

    http://www.seapower-digital.com/seapower/seapower_sample/?pg=52#pg52



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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:01 am

    I wonder how safe it is to use Lithium-Ion Batteries on board submarine considering the problem we know it had encounter with 787 Dreamliner and now A350 too decided not to go with LI batteries ?

    I would wait till the final product with new battereris and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper Wink

    But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design imporvement life.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it sucessfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:33 am

    The Navy has already stated that it will keep the Saint Petersberg as a test sub to test new weapons and systems, because it is basically fully functional except in terms of propulsion, so it means that it can be used for testing new equipment without having to bring an active sub off duty for the purposes of testing.

    Claims it is the best are no different from US claims the F-22 or B-2 are the best. Any battery option has its own risks... that is the nature of energy storage.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:11 am

    To Mindstorm:

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion, and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    And wasn't Greece just trying to cancel the contract for the Type214 sub because of financial problems, now it's South Korea, what's wrong with that sub(Type214)?? No

    Austin wrote:I would wait till the final product with new batteries and AIP make it to 3rd submarine before proclaiming it to be the best submarine in the world , They say what is already Engineered is much better then what is on paper Wink

    But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch

    That would depend on India's desires and time table.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  runaway on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:27 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    With the prospect of the revolutionary AIP propulsion alone it will most definitely continue development, although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design? scratch
    Yes, most certainly

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:20 am

    Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.




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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:22 am

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:But the good news is Russian Naval Command has decided to pursue the Lada design and continue to develop it instead of continually pursuing the late 70 design Kilo and stretching it as it is almost end of it design improvement life.
    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    If the AIP and LI Batteries make it successfully at the earliest , Most certainly Indian Navy will opt for the Amur design
    I dont think so, they will want to see a succesful submarine. And i dont see the Kilo is at the end of its design improvement life.

    By Austin not me. Neutral

    runaway wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada. pirat
    The 214 isnt a succesful design, it has many flaws and design problems, many costumers are unhappy.
    The Lada´s test depth is 300m, the 214 400m, hardly double.. The big difference is 214´s doublehull against Ladas monohull. And it seems the monohull wasnt a good idea.

    Thanks for the heads up, i thought the Type214 and 212 had the same max depth, i wonder why they don't?? confused

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:11 pm

    Austin wrote:Kilo is being improvised but there is as much juice you can get get from a late 70's design. Kilo design served well but its dated for 21st century.

    Hmmm....Lets use the western term of battle proven/proven design, anyway if it ain't broken don't "fix" it. paratrooper

    Austin wrote:Lada is the right move but its taking too long to come up to operational level and now the best hope for it is the next two sub and hopefully they get it right.

    I believe Mindstorm already cleared that up in the earlier post. study

    Austin wrote:Coming back to depth its not about double or single hull but the materials used , 300 m depth for conventional subs is good enough for most task its designed to perform.

    I fully agree. pirat

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:37 pm

    Kilo is a double hull sub which means it has larger wetted area needing more powerful engine and far more fuel/energy to get greater range compared to single hull submarine. Considering Fuel/Energy is a premium on conventional submarine double hull on SSK can have its own issue.

    Reason Russia moved to single hull Lada design that are smaller , ligher and can geting longer range for similar fuel as kilo.

    So the issue is its not broken lets not fix it does not arise , The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:55 am

    Since your debunking rumors, there are those who say that the Amur/Lada with VLS cruise missiles will have no room for the AIP propulsion,

    Hahahaha... funny. the AIP section is like the VLS section... look at any submarine design and point out the empty space with enough room to add vertical launch tubes for a dozen or more cruise missiles, or an entire propulsion system?

    The AIP section or VLS section can be added to the existing design... the original sub is designed with separate compartments and adding new compartments is kinda straight forward.

    and a follow up question, will the AIP engine replace or will it assist the Diesel engine sorta like a hybrid?

    An AIP section would technically be the third propulsion system in the sub... a diesel electric generally has diesel and electric motors, which run on diesel and batteries respectively. This new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity so in many ways it is like a battery in that it is quiet and has no moving parts. BTW western AIPs use hydrogen and basically do the same thing... generate electricity like a battery.

    I wouldn't say the best in the world, but definitely one of the best in the world, the Type214 still wins in depth, at least double that of the Lada.

    The main problem there is that Russian torpedos can hit either sub no matter how deep they go, and being hit at 400m will crush a sub like a beer can... it is rather more important to not have to surface for almost a month than it is to be able to dive deeper... there is no benefit to diving deeper any more when you can't outdive the enemies torpedoes or depth charges or mines etc.

    In many coastal areas the water is often very shallow anyway.

    although i wonder if these breakthroughs will be passed to the kilo design?

    The export model of the Kilo will likely be offered with the export model of the AIP.

    Its not good news to pursue a failed project, better cut your losses and begin with a new design.

    The fact that they are pursuing it suggests the rumours of its failure are largely exaggerated.

    The reason why russia is continuing with Kilo design is because Lada design has not come up to expectation and is decade behind service due to technical and management issue coupled with financial problems for the 90's

    Kilo is a proven design in production... just like the Russian Navy is buying Talwars as well as new ships... both are effective, though the new generation systems are a generation ahead... it is like the PAK FA and Su-35S... they are making both... and not because the PAK FA is rubbish either.

    I think the main problem is that people in the west see Lada and they think old Italian crap... the Lada class SSK are potentially very powerful subs with electronics and sonar that is several levels above those fitted to other SSKs and comparable to those fitted to SSNs... the addition of AIPs and VLS just makes them even more competitive... the main difference between the Lada-M and an Akula will likely be top speed. Endurance will be largely dependent on the amount of food stored on board rather than other limitations.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:04 pm



    Nice size comparison between the Gepard and a 671RTMK.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:13 am

    Unexpected good news!
    Burnyy is being returned to service!

    http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=138280

    According to the article, the propulsion assemblies from the Burnyy have already arrived at Kirovenergomash (who overhauled the Vikras turbines, which functioned flawlessly during trials). They will be repaired and delivered to Dalezavod, where the Burnyy has been tied up since 2005. The factory is planning to carry out similar work on another one of the Pacific's 956s.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:41 am

    TR1 wrote:

    Nice size comparison between the Gepard and a 671RTMK.

    Victor III class next to Acula class?

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:55 pm

    According to the article, the propulsion assemblies from the Burnyy have already arrived at Kirovenergomash (who overhauled the Vikras turbines, which functioned flawlessly during trials). They will be repaired and delivered to Dalezavod, where the Burnyy has been tied up since 2005. The factory is planning to carry out similar work on another one of the Pacific's 956s.

    Excellent news... with the engines fixed up the Sovremmeny class were a handsome well balanced ship. I wonder if they might take the opportunity to replace the arm launchers with vertical launch tubes for Shtil-1? Probably too much effort to replace the Sunburns with UKSK tubes because of the problems of replacing an externally mounted missile system with an internally mounted system, but I would think the VLS for Shtil might actually take up less space than the arm launcher with its ammo handling system below deck.

    Victor III class next to Acula class?

    Akula and Victor III are the western codenames for those vessels, though the Russian Akula is called Typhoon in the west.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:19 pm

    No modernization is planned, so no chance for VLS Shtil.

    I suspect we might get stuck without VLS Shtil on the 11356s as well :/

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:17 pm

    Might be none planned, but during overhauls they often fit new stuff, and the old launchers require a lot more maintainence than the new bin launchers.

    Plus with the introduction of the new tube launched missiles for the Army the old rail launched models might go out of production.

    The focus for the Russian Navy is standardisation and unification of systems, weapons, sensors, and propulsion. It wont happen over night but it is certainly something that will have enormous benefits in the long term making these sorts of changes well worth it when possible.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:54 pm

    Yeah but the VLS Shtil has not been actually used on any surface warship, and remains pretty much vaporware.

    And Dalezavod has never done that kind of work AFAIK.

    I would honestly not get my hopes up for any sort of modernization (past navigation equipment, that kind of small thing).

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:41 am

    I don't think a full upgrade with UKSK VLS and other major upgrades are needed or even possible and for now even if it just has the engines fixed it will be a useful ship.

    I do think that over the next decade of its service it will make sense to replace the obsolete parts... certainly new model Moskits with extended flight ranges can be fitted... perhaps even 32 Uran launchers installed to replace them in above deck angled launchers as the below deck UKSK launchers would be tricky to fit on such a design because of their depth and width.

    The CIWS and the medium range SAM on the other hand should just be a drop in unit... the under deck space for the Shtil would be enormous as it had rotary magazines with missiles plus an automated missile handling system that would allow missiles to be taken from the rotary magazines and raised up through a hatch to the single arm launcher ready to be launched. Equally there would need to be room for crew to get inside such a structure to monitor the state of the missiles and to perform maintainence, so removing all of that and replacing it with vertical launch bins that don't require access from below decks should actually allow a significant increase in ready to fire missiles and a significant reduction in weight and complication/maintainence.

    As such it would make sense to replace the older system during a routine overhaul and replace all the arm launchers on Russian boats when the replacement is ready to go to sea.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:43 am

    "I don't think a full upgrade with UKSK VLS and other major upgrades are needed or even possible and for now even if it just has the engines fixed it will be a useful ship."


    Exactly what is going to happen IMO. I think as service life runs out (of the vessel as a whole, not just engines) it will be withdrawn by or around the turn of the decade.
    MOD doesn't seem to be interested in serious modernization.

    Still this will add greatly to Pacific Fleet, which has only the Bistry operational.

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