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    Russian Navy: Status & News #1

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    Russian Patriot
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    Russian warship to take part in Blackseafor naval drills

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:45 pm

    Russian warship to take part in Blackseafor naval drills

    RIA Novosti

    25/03/201011:55

    MOSCOW, March 25 (RIA Novosti) - The Caesar Kunikov large amphibious landing ship from Russia's Black Sea Fleet will take part in regular Blackseafor naval drills in April, the fleet's press office said on Thursday.

    Blackseafor was formally established in 2001 on Turkey's initiative and comprises Turkey, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania, Georgia and Russia. It conducts search and rescue operations and environmental monitoring, and organizes goodwill visits to Black Sea countries.

    Its charter says Blackseafor can also be deployed for peacekeeping operations under a UN or OSCE mandate.

    This year's drills will be conducted under the command of the Bulgarian Navy.

    The Blackseafor warships will practice tactical maneuvers, the conduct of combat operations against surface ships, air defense and communications, the press office said.

    The warships will also practice assisting distressed ships, naval isolation, ship inspection and provision replenishing at sea. Special attention will be paid to anti-terror exercises.

    Georgian warships have not participated in the Blackseafor exercises for a number of years.

    Russia has said it will not take part in any naval exercises involving Georgian warships.

    Diplomatic ties were cut off between Russia and Georgia in August 2008 after a five-day war over the former Georgian republic of South Ossetia.

    The Caesar Kunikov is a Ropucha-I class large landing ship. It was involved in the conflict between Russia and Georgia in August 2008.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100325-rianovosti05.htm

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:57 am

    Ships of 10,000 ton displacement can generally be detected by radar of most fighter aircraft at 400km or beyond.

    I have read comments from British Navy guys that with the Kirov class, which were designed for reduced radar cross section too, it was easier to detect them by the wake that they created than to try to detect the ship itself.

    That is not to suggest the Kirov was radar invisible, but that the wake can give you away and also a hint that the radar reduction measures were effective of course.

    At the end of the day unless you turn all your radars off you will not be invisible and if you do turn your radars off then you are vulnerable to surprise attack.

    There is safety in numbers, but in the end it doesn't matter what the defence is it can be overwhelmed with numbers.

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    Russian North Fleet destroyer to rejoin fleet after 18 years

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:19 am

    Russian North Fleet destroyer to rejoin fleet after 18 years

    RIA Novosti

    05/04/201016:53

    MOSCOW, April 5 (RIA Novosti) - The Vice-Admiral Kulakov destroyer will rejoin Russia's Northern Fleet after an 18-year overhaul, a spokesman for the Severnaya Verf shipyard said on Monday.

    The Vice-Admiral Kulakov, a Project-1155 Udaloy-class destroyer, was commissioned in 1982 and was in service until March 1991 when it was retired for repairs.

    The retrofit program ran into serious difficulties over a lack of funding and there were even plans to scrap the warship. However, in the early 2000s, the Russian Defense Ministry raised enough funds to complete the modernization.

    The Vice-Admiral Kulakov has a displacement of 6,200 tons, a length of 162.99 m, a speed of 35 knots, a range of 19,400 km, and a crew of 300.

    It is armed with AK-100 artillery systems, Rastrub-B and RBU-6000 antisubmarine complexes, Kinzhal antiaircraft missile systems, and anti-submarine torpedoes. It also carries two Ka-27 Helix-series helicopters.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100405-rianovosti03.htm


    Personal opinion : This is what we should be doing!

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    Russian Navy Somalian patrols!

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:51 am

    Russian warship escorts another convoy in Gulf of Aden

    RIA Novosti

    16/04/201001:29

    MOSCOW, April 16 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Udaloy class missile destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov is escorting four civilian vessels off the coast of Somalia, a Russian Navy spokesman said.

    A Russian Pacific Fleet task force comprising the Marshal Shaposhnikov, the MB-37 salvage tug and the Pechenga tanker arrived in the Gulf of Aden on March 29 to join the anti-piracy mission in the region.

    The destroyer, which has two naval helicopters and a unit of naval infantry on board, has already escorted two commercial convoys comprising a total of 27 ships in pirate-infested waters off the Somali coast.

    Russia joined international anti-piracy efforts in the region in October 2008. The Russian Navy has maintained a near-permanent presence off the Horn of Africa since then, with warships operating on a rotation basis.

    The current task force is the fourth group of warships from the Russian Pacific Fleet engaged in the anti-piracy mission off Somalia, with the previous three task forces led by the Admiral Vinogradov, the Admiral Panteleyev and the Admiral Tributs destroyers. The Northern and Baltic fleets have also sent their warships to the region.

    According to official data, Somali pirates carried out 217 attacks on commercial ships in 2009, hijacking 47 vessels and taking 867 crew members as hostages. They hijacked at least 12 ships since the beginning of 2010.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100416-rianovosti03.htm


    Last edited by Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:52 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Sticky)

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    Drills in Far East to involve warships of three Russian fleets!

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:27 am

    Drills in Far East to involve warships of three Russian fleets

    RIA Novosti

    23/04/201005:20

    VLADIVOSTOK, April 23 (RIA Novosti) - Warships of three Russian fleets will meet in the Sea of Japan during large-scale military exercises in the Far East, a Pacific Fleet source told RIA Novosti on Friday.

    The Russian Armed Forces will conduct large-scale Vostok-2010 military exercises in Siberia and Far East in June-July. The exact date of the drills is yet to be announced.

    The flagships of the Northern Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet, the Pyotr Veliky nuclear-powered missile cruiser and the Moskva missile cruiser, respectively, are expected to join warships of the Pacific Fleet during the exercise, the source said.

    "During the Vostok exercise, warships of the three Russian fleets will conduct joint maneuvers with firing at naval and aerial targets. In addition, they will train elements of joint combat and repelling underwater and aerial attacks," the source said.

    The upcoming land drills will involve units from the Far Eastern, the Siberian and the Volga-Urals military districts.

    As part of the drills, the Armed Forces will practice the deployment of additional troops in Siberia and the Far East to strengthen the existing military contingent in the region in case of a potential military conflict.

    Russia holds Vostok strategic command-and-staff exercises every two years. More than 8,000 troops took part in Vostok-2008.

    The Russian military conducted the Caucasus 2009, Zapad 2009 and Ladoga 2009 strategic exercises, and 15 brigade-level and 161 battalion-level drills last year.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100423-rianovosti02.htm

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:27 am

    Russian warship to escort 12 merchant vessels in Gulf of Aden

    RIA Novosti

    28/04/201016:38

    MOSCOW, April 28 (RIA Novosti) - A Russian warship will escort 12 commercial vessels through the Somali pirate-infested waters of the Gulf of Aden, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Wednesday.

    He said the Pacific Fleet's Udaloy-class missile-armed destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov would start the operation on Wednesday evening.

    The Marshal Shaposhnikov, a large anti-submarine ship, has two helicopters and an infantry unit on board.

    A Russian Pacific Fleet task force comprising the Marshal Shaposhnikov, the MB-37 salvage tug and the Pechenga tanker arrived in the Gulf of Aden on March 29 to join the anti-piracy mission there.

    The task force is the fourth group of warships from the Russian Pacific Fleet engaged in the anti-piracy mission off Somalia, with the previous three task forces led by the Admiral Vinogradov, Admiral Panteleyev and the Admiral Tributs destroyers. The Northern and Baltic fleets have also sent task forces to the region.

    Somali pirates carried out a record number of attacks and hijackings in 2009. According to the Piracy Reporting Center of the International Maritime Bureau, a total of 217 vessels were attacked last year, resulting in 47 hijackings.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100428-rianovosti02.htm

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    Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Mon May 10, 2010 7:51 pm

    Russia mulls construction of 'anti-piracy' ship

    RIA Novosti

    08/05/201016:38

    MOSCOW, May 8 (RIA Novosti) - Russia could build at least one special-purpose ship to fight sea piracy in the next several years, the Pacific Fleet commander has said.

    Vice Admiral Konstantin Sidenko said "special ships and vessels" were needed to ensure safety at sea and deal with sea piracy, which posed the greatest security threat.

    He offered no details about its design or equipment but said that such a ship would be part of the Pacific Fleet, because its area of responsibility includes the Indian Ocean, in particular the Gulf of Aden.

    The chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces said on Friday Russia had no plans to beef up its task force in the Gulf of Aden following a pirate attack on a Russian tanker.

    "We have no plans to reinforce our deployment," said Gen. Nikolai Makarov, who is also first deputy defense minister.

    A SWAT team from the anti-submarine destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov freed the Moscow University tanker and its 23 crewmembers on Thursday. The ship was hijacked by Somali pirates on Wednesday en route from the Red Sea to China.

    One pirate was killed and several injured in a 22-minute operation. The pirates were captured, but later released. Makarov said Russia had "no legal grounds for detaining them" as they could not be prosecuted under international or national law.
    A Russian special investigations committee spokesman initially said that all the detained pirates involved in hijacking the tanker would be sent to Moscow to face legal proceedings and prosecution.

    The Russian task force comprising the RFS Marshal Shaposhnikov, the MB-37 salvage tug and the Pechenga tanker arrived in the Gulf of Aden on March 29 to join the anti-piracy mission in the region.

    Somali pirates carried out a record number of attacks and hijackings in 2009. According to the International Maritime Bureau Piracy Reporting Center, a total of 217 vessels were attacked last year, resulting in 47 hijackings.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100508-rianovosti01.htm


    Last edited by Russian Patriot on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 11, 2010 2:09 am

    It would be interesting to speculate on the design for such a role.

    Would you go for a wolf in sheeps clothing where it pretends to be a cargo vessel, or would you make it a hunter with high speed and lots of guns?

    I would expect for armament you would want the ability to fire out to 8-10km or so accurately, so a 76.2mm AK-176M-MR-123-02 gun would probably be a good start. Perhaps a 57mm automatic gun as well for the faster small boats as well as the standard 30mm CIWS systems too.
    You would want helicopters and I would think that 2-4 Ka-29 assault helos for carrying troops, and maybe some armed attack helos like the Ka-52s might also be useful for their flight range and firepower, and also their armour protection to protect them from return fire.

    For the ship itself, high speed would just burn up fuel quickly and for long duration voyages from the Pacific Fleet base it will need large stores, for its own fuel and the fuel used by the aircraft, as well as ordinance and of course accommodation for the boarding teams.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Tue May 11, 2010 2:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:It would be interesting to speculate on the design for such a role.

    Yep, but for that I would need to know more about the methods and means of the pirates. For example, I think I remember reading somewhere that once they seize a ship, they are in communications with specialized firms who conduct negotations. If so, the first thing I would go for is an electronic-warfare suite to cut-off all the means of communication of the pirates.

    Then there is the issue of the size of the area to be monitored. I suppose that to be effective such a ship would have to have a pretty good intelligence capability, including the ability to constantly monitor all movements in the area of responsability in real time.
    Ideally, this ship should be able to receive and share data with non-Russian forces in the area. Such a data fusion capability would have to be included in the design of the intelligence suite of the ship.

    Once a ship has been seized, a UAV/RPV above it 24/7 is probably a good idea.

    I might be mistaken, but my understanding is that firepower is not really an issue with pirates. They are, as far as I know, armed only with small-arms and RPGs. For safely, we can assume that they will also have machine guns and possible some 30/50 cal guns. None of that is much of a threat to a well-trained assault team, weather by speedboat or helo.

    It would probably be deisrable to be able to put the sized ship's rudder and/or engines out of commission. I am not sure as to what the easiest method for that would be. Any ideas?

    One thing the pirates most definitely do not have (so far) is night-vision gear. Hence, the assault component of the force should have top-of-the-line night vision equipment. That, and special weapons (flashbangs, gas, etc.).

    So my vote goes for a EW and intelligence ship with a squadron of helicotpers (Ka-29TB, Ka-32A2, Ka-32A7, Ka-32S, Ka-31, etc.), a complement of fast attack craft and a company of specially naval assault operators.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 12, 2010 3:54 am

    You make some very good points, though respectfully disagree that a 50 cal HMG is not threat to guys in an inflatable boat... no matter how well trained they are, or for that matter no threat to helos.

    It is my understanding that the smaller boats are controlled by larger boats that act as motherships or base ships for attacks.

    I would expect the main weapons used to foil an attack would be in helos, guns and rockets and the odd ATGM when precision is required. All three should be able to be used outside the range of RPG and small arms fire and potentially out to outside HMG range if necessary.

    Regarding the 57mm and 76.2mm guns, with almost 3kg and 16kg shells respectively able to engage targets out to 8-10km they can be used to fire warning shots and also to damage vessels. I would expect their rate of fire (240 rpm and 120 rpm) would make the engagement of high speed targets practical, because some of those little boats are fast.

    For a larger boat the 76.2mm gun might be a little light, but a heavy anti ship missile will be over kill.

    Something like a Kh-25ML with a 90kg HE warhead and laser guidance to allow targeting of the rear of the vessel would be useful.

    Having thought about it some more I actually think that modelling the pirates operation might be worth while... having a larger slower mothership as a base of supply with a load of a dozen or so helicopters with long range fuel tanks added to act like the high speed boats.

    The main problem is the speed of the little boats which is reportedly up to 50 knts so no modern conventional warship can catch them. Helos have a speed advantage, though obviously a few very high flying UCAVs would also be useful.

    I suspect the real solution is to build a land base there and hire a lot of fishermen to help support the base operations. Pay some of the fishermen to patrol looking for Pirates might sound strange, but all the options are not cheap and this is really the only one that might make the problem go away.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Wed May 12, 2010 5:07 am

    GarryB wrote:You make some very good points, though respectfully disagree that a 50 cal HMG is not threat to guys in an inflatable boat... no matter how well trained they are, or for that matter no threat to helos.

    Sorry, I should have been more explicit on what I meant. 30 or 50 cal machine guns are, of course, a potential risk to an inflatable (or even a regular) small boat or helo. What I meant is that a modern force can use sound tactics (such as a night attack with NVGs) to destroy/disable these (or get rid of the folks manning them). I just don't think that your average Somali pirate crew is going to be very proficient at using a machine gun and a modern craft or helo will deliver its ammo with far more accuracy and effect. Targeting and precision will mean more than caliber or range in such a confrontation.

    In general, I think that kinetics should be kept to a minimal level, both for safety and to minimize costs. This is why I respectfully disagree with the use of heavy guns or missiles - depending on the ship, they might do too much damage.

    What still eludes me is a good solution to temporarily disable the engines or rudder without trashing the hijacked ship. Some kind of small specialized slow-speed torpedo might be the answer I would imagine. Getting it right on the screws should be a piece of cake, and a small warhead might be just enough to get the job done without catastrophic damage.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 12, 2010 7:43 am

    I have seen one video on Youtube I think it was, where a Russian vessel "stopped" another vessel with its 30mm gatling. It just fired burst after burst at the rear end of the target vessel till it stopped. Well actually it caught fire I think from memory.

    The heavy guns on the boats would not increase costs by very much, in fact I think I remember some training ships that had medium calibre guns on them for the purposes of training.

    A couple of 76.2mm or even 100mm or 130mm shells into the hull near the waterline to the rear of most vessels will stop them without too much risk of sinking them. Unless the vessels are small or overloaded then it would only take a couple of shells at the hull below the smoke stack to take out the engine room and stop the ship.

    Equally aiming at the rudder might be possible, but hitting the screws with any gun would be unlikely.

    Landing special forces on board to take over the bridge would be the most sure option, but for little boats a single 57mm shell to the rear of the boat should stop it. The Ka-29 has a 4 barrel 30 cal gatling gun behind a moving panel in the nose that fires at 6,000 rounds per minute. Directing that at the rear of a speed boat should physically stop it if spraying the water around the boat doesn't make the crew stop.

    If you don't care about the lives of the pirates then a single ATGM like ATAKA with a HE Frag warhead aimed at the centre of a small speed boat should neutralise the target.

    I think the real question is tactics.

    Do you want to simply escort vessels to protect them, do you want to simply use safe room tactics and respond to vessels in the process of being hijacked, or do you want to scan the ocean and hunt for pirates.

    For each role slightly different vessels and equipment will work better.

    Certainly helos offer good response times without the need for an expensive aircraft carrier.
    An AWACS helicopter like Ka-31 would be most useful in detecting attacks as they are launched.
    Electronics to enable mother craft to be identified means you can attack the source of the problem rather than having to chase around the little fish.

    Personally I think the best weapons would be light cannon on aircraft and ships (30mm would be fine, but I would like some heavier options just in case though only to about 76.2mm rather than really heavy guns). I would want 57mm guns for their high rate of fire, their range and their hitting power and their ability to hit very fast moving targets like small boats. 30mm guns for the same reason, but use the 30mm because they would be cheaper per round.
    I would also want ATGMs from ship and helo platforms simply because they are relatively cheap compared with proper Anti Ship Missiles, yet offer precision targeting at ranges beyond HMG and RPG fire range so point targets can be accurately engaged.
    Lastly I would want unguided rockets from Helos, preferably with Ugroza laser guidance kits so they could be used as cheap ATGMs with range and accuracy, but also reduced costs.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Wed May 12, 2010 2:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:I have seen one video on Youtube I think it was, where a Russian vessel "stopped" another vessel with its 30mm gatling. It just fired burst after burst at the rear end of the target vessel till it stopped. Well actually it caught fire I think from memory.

    Interesting. If you find the link, please post it here, ok?

    GarryB wrote:I think the real question is tactics. Do you want to simply escort vessels to protect them, do you want to simply use safe room tactics and respond to vessels in the process of being hijacked, or do you want to scan the ocean and hunt for pirates.

    I would imagine that escorting is just too expensive so as long as the anti-piracy force can a) sever communications between the pirates and their representatives b) immobilize the seized ship and c) send in an assault team the deterrence factor should already bring down the number of incidents substantially.

    A specialized ships does make sense. There is something a little silly in seeing a major anti-submarine ship like the Shaposhnikov going after pirates (even the Peter the Great on its reecent multi-ocean cruise to a shoot at some anti-piracy ops if I remember correctly!). The kind of ship that would be needed for this kind of stuff could be far cheaper to built (or, most likely, convert).

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed May 12, 2010 10:40 pm

    The easy answer is to arm merchants with 14.5mm rail mountable MGs. No pirate skiff is going to stick around for that.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 13, 2010 4:36 am

    Indeed I think the cheapest option would be a couple of 14.5mm guns and perhaps a few man portable ATGMs like Kornet or even older models like AT-4/-5 Konkurs/fagot with HE Frag warheads.
    A unit of ten Marines with one commander and three teams of three men to operate 24/7 in 8 hour shifts for each of the three teams.

    A more expensive option might be to tow a small patrol craft with a power line leading back to it so it could operate engines off and during an attack, or an attack on a nearby vessel it could be released and zip at up to 50 knots to intervene. Such a vessel could be towed through the danger areas and then refuel and rearm and restock and then be towed by the next vessel through.
    The added fuel bill for the tow should not be large for the towing vessel and the marines will be in their own boat with a wider range of weapons and communications and sensors.

    I think a good option might be to go with the first option but add some UAVs for early detection of pirate vessels.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 14, 2010 3:35 am

    It seems there is a Somali report that the Russians shot those pirates they captured instead of releasing them.
    Of course there are a few problems with the original report because the spokesman for the Pirates! claimed that at least 10 Pirates were executed, yet Russian sources said only 10 were captured and one was killed during the rescue so at most only 9 could have been executed.
    Second if all the Pirates had been shot, then how would the Somalis know already?
    Third if the Russians can't try the Pirates in a court of law for piracy it seems there is no law on the high seas and anyone can do to anyone what they wish, so I guess that would include the Russians.
    Personally I rather doubt a Russian ship captain would order his sailers to execute anyone in cold blood, but then those ships will have Navy special forces on board and the rules are different for special forces.
    It could certainly be argued that shooting some Pirates caught in the act of Piracy doesn't require a court or legal proceedings.
    The people the US has at Guantanimo have certainly be given no human rights, what with their not even being told what they are being held for, no legal representation, not to mention water boarding and sleep deprivation through loud music all constituting torture.
    Indeed aledged criminals are regularly bombed from UCAVs in foreign countries by the US and killed without trial based on intel, which has proven in the past to be very unreliable.
    Quite often forces will operate "behind enemy lines" and when it proves impossible to look after prisoners then prisoners are not taken if you know what I mean.

    No, this is not Off Topic, because one design consideration might be for the holding of prisoners for extended periods.
    There might even be the potential for targeted kidnappings so that trades can be made for certain hostages.

    Personally I have no reason to believe the Somali "Representatives of the Pirates", and no reason not to believe the Russian navy when it says the Pirates were released after being fed and treated for wounds on an inflatable boat. If they really are fishermen then they wont need GPS to head for shore.

    BTW here is a link to that Video I was talking about:
    [url=http://www.youtube com/watch?v=IldNCez8KeI&feature=related]http://www.youtube com/watch?v=IldNCez8KeI&feature=related[/url]
    If you put the dot back between the youtube and the com it will work.
    It shows the Russian border patrol first warning a Chinese ship with flares to stop and then with 30mm rounds into the engine deck to make it stop.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 14, 2010 9:37 am

    I get sick of these wussies who talk about water cannons. Save that for Green Peace, pirates mean business.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Fri May 14, 2010 2:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:It seems there is a Somali report that the Russians shot those pirates they captured instead of releasing them.

    Very dubious - this was a high visibility, very mediatized, operation and I am quite sure that the captain of that ship had very specific orders. As for special operators, they will only kill if given the order. They are pros, not William Calley in My Lai Wink

    But, as far as I know, the assault force was Naval Infantry. Does anybody have details about this?

    GarryB wrote:BTW here is a link to that Video I was talking about:
    [url=http://www.youtube com/watch?v=IldNCez8KeI&feature=related]http://www.youtube com/watch?v=IldNCez8KeI&feature=related[/url]

    Thanks!!!

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 14, 2010 2:19 pm

    If the Somalis were all executed, who is left to report it?

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri May 14, 2010 7:05 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:If the Somalis were all executed, who is left to report it?

    NATO as usual Mad

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 15, 2010 2:11 am

    So here is what really happened...

    Dealing With Pirates the Russian Way

    Ten pirates captured by the Russian navy last week near Somalia were put in an inflatable boat without navigational equipment and cast adrift in the Indian Ocean last Friday. They are now presumed dead, according to Russian officials.

    The official told the Russian press that after an hour, radar contact with the boat was lost and the pirates “apparently” had all died. He did not elaborate. Commentators are speculating what may have really happened, especially since the Russian president last week indicated severe punishment for the pirates, saying, “We will have to act as our forefathers did when they met pirates.” The Defense Ministry said last Friday that plans changed from a trial in Moscow to release on the ocean due to shortcomings of international law.

    A spokesman of Navfor, the EU’s naval force in Somalia, warned not to jump to conclusions, saying to BBC that it was impossible to say anything without knowing more details of the boat, the weather, and other factors.

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/35219/

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 15, 2010 4:06 am

    These guys are not the pirates we see in hollywood movies, and they are not soldiers in an army.
    They are not fishermen either.
    They might have started out being fishermen but once you take up arms and threaten to kill for money then the way you should be treated becomes very different in my book.

    Equally it is not like these guys happened to be nearby and were picked up by accident because they happened to be nearby... these guys were caught on the job... there is no question of guilt.

    I would not condone shooting them, but setting them adrift in a boat is perfectly acceptable to me. If they really are fishermen then from the position of the sun and the stars they will know which way they need to go.

    If they are just criminals then there are 10 less criminals in that part of the ocean.

    Sounds like it is time to look at international law at sea perhaps?

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Sat May 15, 2010 7:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Equally it is not like these guys happened to be nearby and were picked up by accident because they happened to be nearby... these guys were caught on the job... there is no question of guilt. I would not condone shooting them, but setting them adrift in a boat is perfectly acceptable to me. Sounds like it is time to look at international law at sea perhaps?

    I feel exactly the same way. However, I am also told by one friend that these guys are desperate and that since their country has been totally messed up by the "Axis of Goodness" I suppose that I feel sorry that they get shafted, while their patrons away, who make most of the money for sure, continue sitting in air conditioned offices puffing at their cigars. Kidnappping is a major ugly crime and its not like I feel heartbroken for these guys, but yes, it probably would be best to look at what the law of the sea says about such circumstances. I took a quick look on the web and it appears that there is really no universal law which would make it possible to punish these guys. These guys are not POWs, but I suppose that the Common Article 3 of the Geneva conventions still applies to them, along with the Convention against Torture, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and a couple of other such universal instruments. Putting them back in a inflatable boat and saying "good-bye" is therefore probably totally legal.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 16, 2010 4:07 am

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a joke.
    One of its rules is that you can't just go searching people to find evidence of illegal activity, you have to have a specific reason for the search.
    This makes profiling illegal and it also makes Echelon illegal.
    Basing international law on systems that are violated every day by the states that created them is not good.

    I too think these guys are getting screwed, but if they think that gives them the right to screw others they can think again.

    If it only cost the insurance companies money then I would think what they were doing was justified, but in the end the insurance companies are not going to wear the cost themselves... they pass it on in increased premiums and we all pay because shipping goods suddenly costs more.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Sun May 16, 2010 3:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a joke.
    One of its rules is that you can't just go searching people to find evidence of illegal activity, you have to have a specific reason for the search.
    This makes profiling illegal and it also makes Echelon illegal.
    Basing international law on systems that are violated every day by the states that created them is not good.

    BEGIN Off Topic I submit that dismissing a law on the basis that it is systematically violated by hypocrits who pretend to uphold it is not logical; the issue are the hypocrits, not the law itself. By your logic democracy is a joke because it is abused, manipulated and debased by the SOBs which claim not only to uphold it, but to actually promote and export it. That kind of logic give the power to the worst of humanity to discredit anything it does not wish to abide by. Then what do you suggest you base international law on - that which thugs and imperialists really endorse and live by? Wink END Off Topic

    Actually, customary law would allow for the summary execution of pirates. Many countries did that in the past.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #1

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