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    Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

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    Vladimir79
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    Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:19 pm

    Eight rebels killed' in Dagestan

    At least eight suspected militants have been killed by Russian security forces in the troubled southern republic of Dagestan, local officials have said.

    The men were shot dead by members of the Federal Security Service during an hour-long gun battle in a forest near the capital, Makhachkala, they added.

    In neighbouring Chechnya, a militant was killed during a raid in the Urus-Martanovskiy district, reports say.

    The clashes came after a suicide bomber killed six people in Grozny on Sunday.

    The man blew himself up after police stopped him while he attempted to gain entry to a concert hall in the Chechen capital.

    Growing insurgency

    Violence has flared in the North Caucasus in recent months, with dozens of militants and members of the security forces being killed.

    In June, the President of Ingushetia, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, was critically injured by a car bomb in an apparent assassination attempt.

    Two weeks earlier, Dagestan's interior minister was shot dead.

    Russian forces have fought two wars against Islamist separatists in the mainly Muslim republic of Chechnya since 1994. The conflicts claimed more than 100,000 lives and left it in ruins.

    Chechnya has in recent years been more peaceful, but the fighting has spread to Dagestan and Ingushetia, where correspondents say a violent Islamist insurgency is growing.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8172363.stm

    Jelena
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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:37 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:

    Chechnya has in recent years been more peaceful, but the fighting has spread to Dagestan and Ingushetia, where correspondents say a violent Islamist insurgency is growing.


    Today the construction minister of Ingushetia was killed!


    Another assassination has taken place in the unstable Caucasus region of southern Russia. The Ingushetian construction minister Ruslan Amerkhanov was shot dead by two unknown gunman this morning who walked into his office in Magas not far from the capital, and opened fire.

    Ingushetia is suffering from a rebellion by Islamic fundamentalists and has become the most violent of Russia’s southern republics. In June the president was seriously injured when his convoy was caught in a suicide attack, and he only left hospital yesterday.
    http://www.euronews.net/2009/08/12/minister-murdered-in-ingushetia/

    Ingushetia’s forensics chief died in July after a shooting
    Republic’s Supreme Court judge was assassinated in June

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:31 am

    Is there any form of temporary rules like any curfews set in place? Make these areas suffer in the sense of forcing the people to tell you where these insurgents are. It is either give them up and have freedom, or live like sheep just trying to hide them.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:16 am

    sepheronx wrote:Is there any form of temporary rules like any curfews set in place? Make these areas suffer in the sense of forcing the people to tell you where these insurgents are. It is either give them up and have freedom, or live like sheep just trying to hide them.

    No, we are not going to impose martial law for one or two terror cells. These are mainly foreign Wahhabis since they are detonating themselves. Kadyrov is basically martial law himself and he now has jursidiction. We all know how far he will go.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:59 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:

    No, we are not going to impose martial law for one or two terror cells. These are mainly foreign Wahhabis since they are detonating themselves. Kadyrov is basically martial law himself and he now has jursidiction. We all know how far he will go.

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...


    4 policemen, 7 civilians shot dead in south Russia
    Militants kill 4 police officers, 7 civilians in Russia's volatile Caucasus province


    Gunmen shot and killed four police officers and seven civilians in a restive Russian province near Chechnya on Thursday, officials said.

    The attackers drove to a police checkpoint in the city of Buinaksk in the province of Dagestan and sprayed it with automatic gunfire, killing four officers on the spot, said Mark Tolchinsky, a spokesman for the Russian Interior Ministry's branch in Dagestan.

    The militants then shot and killed seven women in a nearby bathhouse, he said.

    Tolchinsky said two more police officers were wounded by militants in two other separate attacks Thursday in the provincial capital, Makhachkala.

    Separately, security forces worked Thursday to defuse a homemade bomb they found on the tracks of a major railway that passes through Makhachkala. They tried unsuccessfully for several hours to defuse the explosive device and then delayed further action until Friday morning, halting train travel.

    Dagestan, which is located east of Chechnya, has been destabilized by regular attacks on police and other officials by Islamic militants. The region's top law enforcement officer was killed by a sniper in June.

    While major fighting in Chechnya has subsided after the two separatist wars over the last 15 years, its neighboring provinces in Russia's North Caucasus have seen a steady rise in violence.

    In the province of Ingushetia west of Chechnya, three gunmen on Thursday shot and killed a female fortuneteller, the regional Interior Ministry's branch said in a statement. Members of militant Islamic groups see fortunetelling as a grave vice, the ministry said.

    Source: AP News
    http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/08/13/4-policemen-7-civilians-shot-dead-in-south-russia/


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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:00 am

    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

    Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:49 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

    Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

    You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:47 pm

    Jelena wrote:

    You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

    As of the 2002 census, 4.7% of Dagestan is ethnic Russian. It is even less today.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:30 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    You're right...I just checked on demographics of Ingushetia and seen that there is only very small percentage of ethnic Russians over there (1.2%).Not even 100 years ago there were 31.7% of ethnic Russians in Ingusheia!!!Couldn't find some reliable data on Dagestan...

    As of the 2002 census, 4.7% of Dagestan is ethnic Russian. It is even less today.

    Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:07 pm

    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

    Ethnic Russian muslims... I never heard of such a thing except in Tatarstan. They would be strung up if anyone found out. 4 million ethnic muslims have converted to Orthodoxy in the last 5 years so I am not worried about a few Russ doing it.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:13 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, do you know maybe what is the percentage (or number in total) of ethnic Russians who are muslims? I read that you have around 20 mill of muslims in Russia...I know that they are not all ethnic Russians for sure but people who hold Russian citizenship but couldn't find exact data, if there's any?!?

    Ethnic Russian muslims... I never heard of such a thing except in Tatarstan. They would be strung up if anyone found out. 4 million ethnic muslims have converted to Orthodoxy in the last 5 years so I am not worried about a few Russ doing it.

    That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
    Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me Smile

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:17 pm

    Jelena wrote:

    That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
    Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me Smile

    There are only 20 million muslims in the whole country. What idiot told you there were 20 million ethnic Russian muslims?

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:39 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    That's what I thought... I am sorry if the question was confusing but I met on internet some muslims who claimed that those 20 mill are Russians and denied their ethnicity. Since you're Russian who actually lives in Russia I thought that you can clarify to me what is the situation in reality.In other words, among those 20 mill of muslims only small fraction are ethnic Russians.
    Thank you, you have no idea how much you helped me Smile

    There are only 20 million muslims in the whole country. What idiot told you there were 20 million ethnic Russian muslims?

    One muslims from other board where I post (he speaks Russian, Serbian and English)...I think you know the place I am talking about that goes under Russian newspaper. He disputed my claim that those muslims in Russia are not ethnic Russians but they just hold Russian citizenship (to him there is no difference between two) and further he made claim on one other thread that Putin is going sometimes for a morning prayer in one mosque near Kremlin!
    I have no way to check this, especially on Putin and that's why I asked you...

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:51 pm

    Jelena wrote:

    One muslims from other board where I post (he speaks Russian, Serbian and English)...I think you know the place I am talking about that goes under Russian newspaper. He disputed my claim that those muslims in Russia are not ethnic Russians but they just hold Russian citizenship (to him there is no difference between two) and further he made claim on one other thread that Putin is going sometimes for a morning prayer in one mosque near Kremlin!
    I have no way to check this, especially on Putin and that's why I asked you...

    Putin prayed in a mosque? Laughing Laughing Laughing The first visit of any Russian leader to Moskva's Mosque was last month and that was by Medvedev to meet with the Islamic Council. No Russian heads of state have ever been to it before Medvedev, much less prayed there.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:22 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

    Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.



    This is a serious issue. Sure, there are hardly any ethnic Russians left in Chechna, Ingushetia, Dagestan and the Chechen terrorist kill Chechen OMON, MVD (and vise versa), but lest we forget that hundred of thousands of (Muslim) people from that region live in Moscow and other parts of Russia proper. The people we are talking about are Russian citizens (which is different from the situation with KLA - most of whom were citizens of Albania, not Yugoslavia).

    As we know from history many Muslims (in particular Chechens) have fought bravely for the greatness of Russia. Most recently they fought in Georgia as a part of the Russian Army against "Orthodox" Georgians who came to South Ossetia to kill another Orthodox people.


    It all depends on who "stirs" them up, and they surely respect force, - as most people in the East. Thus, lest we forget that, for example, during WWI thousands of them joined the "Savage Division" that became most feared unit of the Russian Army (the Germans didn't take them prisoners, as well as the cossacks). Moreover, unlike the ethnic Russians, they VOLUNTEERED to fight for Russia and the Russian Emperor. Quoting Wikipedia:

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%8F

    "Как сама дивизия, так и входившие в её состав полки стали гордостью российской армии." - "The division itself, as well as regiments that composed it - became the pride of the Russian Army."

    Thousands of them distinguished themselves under the leadership of the Russian officers who fought in the "Savage Division". One of them was a son of Leo Tolstoy, who in his youth fought against the Chechens in the Caucasian War. Grand Duke Mikhail Romanov, Nicholas II's brother was at some point the commander of the "Savage Division".



    I don't see it as a "black/white" issue - it is much more complicated than that.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:11 am

    Mod. Jelena, wrote something in response to my post and then deleted it - I had no chance to reply.


    Anyways, without going deep into the Russian history, and in particular, what role the Muslims played in various historical events (like wars, etc), let me say this. Throughout its history the human race self-organized itself as by drawing the line according to

    "US AGAINST THEM."

    It seems to me, that drawing the line "Us - Christian Orthodox against them - Muslims" is not working, not in Russia at least. The last war that Russia fought was "Orthodox Russians, Muslim Chechens, Orthodox Ossetians against Orthodox Georgians (helped by Orthodox Ukrainians)"

    If the Chechens in Chechnya are "them" (they kill each other helping "us"), then as many Russians proposed (e.g., Solzhenicyn) - there's no need to keep Chechnya (Dagestan, Ingushetia, ...) in Russia - let them be independent. However, what to do then with the hundreds of thousand of Chechens who live in Russia proper? Are they "them" or "us"? Please be reminded that all of the people we are talking here are holders of the Russian passports.


    The politics of the Russian Empire was more successful in this respect. The Empire fought the Chechens for many years (mainly because they were stirred up against Russia by England and Turkey); the war was fought in the 19th century not to "enslave" or "exploit" the Chechens - after they were defeated they enjoyed much more freedom and privileges than the Russians themselves in the Empire, the war was fought for strategic reasons. It was essentially the war against Turkey and England.

    When the spiritual and military leader Shamil was captured - he was sent into an honorable exile in Kaluga and was given an estate. One of his sons was appointed Fligel-Adjutant to the Emperor Alexander II and his grandson fought bravely in "Savege Division" during WW1.

    The Chechens, Dagestani, Kabardins and others as a part of the Russian Army were also fighting for Serbia during WW1.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Jelena on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:00 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:Mod. Jelena, wrote something in response to my post and then deleted it - I had no chance to reply.

    Yes, I deleted my response 'cause I would like to hear first ethnic Russians and their opinion on the situation and their responses, before giving my opinion. I am not so much into the situation and would not like to jump into the conclusions, if you don't mind.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:48 am

    Jelena wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:Mod. Jelena, wrote something in response to my post and then deleted it - I had no chance to reply.

    Yes, I deleted my response 'cause I would like to hear first ethnic Russians and their opinion on the situation and their responses, before giving my opinion. I am not so much into the situation and would not like to jump into the conclusions, if you don't mind.

    I understand, it would be also interesting to know what the ethnic Chechens and Dagestani (citizens of Russia) think about it. Hopefully when the forum grows more we will.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:24 am

    Here is an interesting documentary about the
    "Savage Division" (Дикая дивизия) during WW1. The makers of the documentary even
    use the recollections of Josef Tito, - how he was
    captured by the Muslim warriors of the "Savage Division"

    Кавказцы в войнах России. Дикая дивизия


    http://rutube.ru/tracks/911215.html?v=ee2b7badbe605515a089e83c1508575f

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Turk1 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:41 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

    Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

    Typical Russian response. We cry when Kurds get killed by PKK and especially when we have to kill them. You just want to see dead Muslims am I right?

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:45 am

    Turk1 wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Jelena wrote:

    Vladimir, what is your opinion on Dagestan and Ingushetia? So many casualties...

    Well, look at who is getting killed. MVD and OMON troops in the region are Chechen, Ingush, and Dagis. Citizens are the same. Would you feel bad if KLA killed schiptars in Kosovo fighting themselves? The way I see it, they are doing the work for us.

    Typical Russian response. We cry when Kurds get killed by PKK and especially when we have to kill them. You just want to see dead Muslims am I right?

    Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Turk1 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:47 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

    I don't see any Russian press crying over it, much less ethnic Russians.

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:49 am

    Turk1 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Not typical at all, if you read the Russian newspapers, - those events are described there as a tragedy involving the death of Russian citizens.

    I don't see any Russian press crying over it, much less ethnic Russians.

    Do you read Russian?

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  Turk1 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:56 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Do you read Russian?

    Da, ia govriyu po-russki, a vy?

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    Re: Insurgency in the North Caucasus:

    Post  soldieroffortune on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:01 am

    Turk1 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Do you read Russian?

    Da, ia govriyu po-russki, a vy?

    Ya tozhe govorju po-russki. Togda (esli vy ne smotreli), vam ponravitsja fil'm

    Кавказцы в войнах России. Дикая дивизия

    http://rutube.ru/tracks/911215.html?v=ee2b7badbe605515a089e83c1508575f

    During WW1, the Russian officers belonging to the highest nobility class considered serving in the Muslim "Savage Division" - the greatest honor.

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