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    PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

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    moskit

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    PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  moskit on Sun May 21, 2017 7:00 am

    F-22 has an edge over pak fa in beam and aft sector RCS .The frontal vlo performance is equally great for both these majestic aircrafts . It was supposed that sensor fusion would be an arena where Sukhoi would find it rather difficult to come up with a relavant mature solution. With the introduction of IMA BK mission computer and fire control complex developed in house, the critics may have been silenced. There is still some time to go. And the rear fuselage shaping will be refined, those cylindrical unstealthy nacelles will give way to faceted ones once Izdeliye 30 appears. then the rear and beam signatures will be as good as the F-35 if not better. Hope the prototypes coming out would carry these features.. expecting replays dear admins,, russia

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    Pak fa vsf 35

    Post  moskit on Sun May 21, 2017 7:04 am

    russia

    Maneuverability is NOT the holly grail in aerial combat. The T-50 is pale in comparison to the F-35 especially in stealth and situational awareness which is of number one importance in any fighter aircraft. Could this be true????

    moskit

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    Pak fa vs us fifth gen fighters

    Post  moskit on Sun May 21, 2017 7:14 am

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-simple-reason-why-americas-f-22-stealth-raptor-would-19390. Is this just another top gun script or realistic analysis?? russia
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 21, 2017 7:27 am

    Nothing from the National Interest is real. Just a bunch of junk. No matter if it makes Russia look good or bad.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 21, 2017 1:11 pm

    moskit wrote:russia  

    Maneuverability is NOT the holly grail in aerial combat. The T-50 is pale in comparison to the F-35 especially in stealth and situational awareness which is of number one importance in any fighter aircraft. Could this be true????

    HATOstani circle-jerking... nothing more.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 21, 2017 1:15 pm

    moskit wrote:F-22 has an edge over pak fa in beam and aft sector RCS .The frontal vlo performance is equally great for both these majestic aircrafts . It was supposed that sensor fusion would be an arena where Sukhoi would find it rather difficult to come up with a relavant mature solution. With the introduction of IMA BK mission computer and fire control complex developed in house, the critics may have been silenced. There is still some time to go. And the rear fuselage shaping will be refined, those cylindrical unstealthy nacelles will give way to faceted ones once Izdeliye 30 appears. then the rear and beam signatures will be as good as the F-35 if not better. Hope the prototypes coming out would carry these features.. expecting replays dear admins,, russia

    Does the F-35 have a facetted engine nacelle? Does it has a concealed engine nozzle ala F-22? Nope, yet both of these ommissions are routinely held up as "weaknesses" in the "non-stealthy" T-50 design.....

    Don't bother with the fuktardishness of HATOstani zealots. They will inflate F-22/35 until they are godlike machines, while sledging the T-50 as a "primitive failure"..... stupid is as stupid does...
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    GarryB

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 22, 2017 4:12 am

    PAK FA will have 5 large AESA radars in its front (nose and wings) which should provide enough radar energy to burn the little brain out of any ARH missile.

    DIRCMs should deal with all optically guided missiles like ASRAAM and AIM-9X etc.

    This suggests it will turn into a gun fight.

    Who was saying that manouverability wont be important... ohh that is right... the people with the less manouverable aircraft F-35 and F-22...

    Why don't I believe them?


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    moskit

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    F 35, capable to dogfight??

    Post  moskit on Mon May 22, 2017 8:53 am

    https://www.facebook.com/ajeeb.ebrahim/posts/10210914773839413.. conpared to the king of super manuevrable su 35 and t 50 where does tve f 35 stand ? What does this photo reveal?? russia

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    Why the russians praise the f 35

    Post  moskit on Mon May 22, 2017 8:09 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZbqkxjAK8E&t=2s,,, is he really an expert?? Is he saying the truth?? Or a paid troll???
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    George1

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  George1 on Mon May 22, 2017 8:26 pm

    moskit wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZbqkxjAK8E&t=2s,,, is he really an expert?? Is he saying  the truth?? Or a paid troll???

    friend there is thread with pak-fa vs f-35, f-22 that you opened. Dont open the same again and again every day. Next time i will consider it as trolling


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 22, 2017 8:49 pm

    moskit wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZbqkxjAK8E&t=2s,,, is he really an expert?? Is he saying the truth?? Or a paid troll???

    Really? Does this forum only attract high schoolers who have absolutely 0 common sense?

    Ask yourself a question: does this man work for Lockheed or have any input into it? No. Does this guy have insider info we don't have? No. He is simply giving his unneeded 2 Kopeks into the debate.
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    Isos

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Isos on Mon May 22, 2017 9:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:PAK FA will have 5 large AESA radars in its front (nose and wings) which should provide enough radar energy to burn the little brain out of any ARH missile.

    DIRCMs should deal with all optically guided missiles like ASRAAM and AIM-9X etc.

    This suggests it will turn into a gun fight.

    Who was saying that manouverability wont be important... ohh that is right... the people with the less manouverable aircraft F-35 and F-22...

    Why don't I believe them?

    Someone mentioned relectors for 5 gen fighters in an other thread. Do you think they could be better than chaffs against radar missiles ??

    Chaff is basicaly a cloud that won't move once lunched while reflector can have huge RCS. So in a complexe jamming environment plus some relfectors simulating a target of 10 m² each one, missiles will probably not see the Pak Fa and will go after the reflectors.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 23, 2017 11:13 am

    Corner reflectors, sometimes called luneberg lenses actually magnify a radar signal and help redirect the signal back to the source.

    They have put optical equivalents on the moon so they can point lasers at the moon to measure how far away it is.

    Some big powerful laser is pointed at the moon aimed at a reflector and a few photons are reflected back to earth... tiny signal but speed of light is known so only a few photons are needed for precise measure of distance.

    With a radar and luneberg lense I always thought a carefully designed lense could be used to create a 10,000 square metre radar return... you would not know what is hidden in there and what is not.

    Chaff is cut to half the wave length of the radar wave being jammed so it actually does the same thing. Some radar are sophisticated enough to detect a non moving cloud of Chaff and ignore it... a corner reflector on a towed decoy that also has an active jammer and chaff dispenser should be more effective.

    The advantage of a corner reflector is that it can be made really solid so even a missile impact and explosion wont deform it so it will continue to function after multiple hits potentially.

    As I mentioned in another thread a solution to defeat an tank based APS system could be HMG rounds like the 14.5mm rounds with plastic radar transparent noses with corner reflectors inside simulating a target .5 square metres... like an ATGM end on... a burst of 20 shells at a tank and the tank thinks 20 missiles are coming and expends all its defensive munitions and then you fire the real missile...

    The Soviets already had 23mm and 30mm cannon shells that released Chaff and Flare components... used with CIWS gun systems and in 23mm defensive cannon on bombers to distract incoming air to air or anti ship missiles.


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    moskit

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    Why there are more radars on pak fa compared to f 22?

    Post  moskit on Wed May 24, 2017 1:00 pm

    Admins, please add some light in to this matter. Why does the T 50 keep side and rear facing AESA radars? Wont a single forward facing AESA plus a DAS do the work ? Will so many radars increases the cost, and complexity of the plane like t 50?? russia thank u.
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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 26, 2017 9:58 am

    This is a forum, not the Russian military.

    I cannot tell you why they went for 5 radars on the PAK FA... the two AESA radars in L band in the shoulder positions of the wings are for detecting long wave emissions from datalinks and would also offer the ability to detect stealth targets at extended ranges, but having three radar mounted facing forward and sideways suggests to me the ability to monitor airspace to the sides of the aircraft have been deemed useful without the need for the aircraft to turn.

    There was talk of radar antenna arrays in next generation aircraft being conformal and fixed pointing in all sorts of directions at once.

    It makes little sense to have AESA radar types on mechanical steering mechanisms... the whole point of an electronically scanned array is to be able to scan the entire field of view electronically in miliseconds... slowing that down with a mechanical steering system suggests a problem in the field of regard of the system. Look at most modern ships with AESA arrays and they tend to have three or four arrays fixed covering 360 degrees... it is much more efficient to do that than to put one array in a mechanical system to turn it... it is obviously more expensive to have three or four arrays too, but the results are useful.

    In terms of detecting targets the PAK FA is not designed to operate on its own in enemy air space... it will have a decent view of the airspace around it from other platforms already, so three nose mounted AESA arrays in X band suggests the ability to fly away from threats while still monitoring the situation...

    Keeping your distance is useful when you are stealthy and have long range AAMs.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 26, 2017 6:28 pm

    The side panels are good only to detect missiles or enemy radars.

    The steerable ESA is used on many airplane , because it can give no more than 120 degree coverage, and the strength is decreasing as you steering off from the axis .


    The steer ability is important as well for jam resistance.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 27, 2017 10:32 am

    The side panel arrays are full standard X band AESA radars and can do more than just listen for enemy radar.

    It can do pretty much anything the front facing X band radar can do...

    The fact that they are angled slightly down they would be useful as side looking radar for flying down a border and looking inside the enemy territory but Assuming 120 degree angle coverage they should allow monitoring of an attack without having to continue closing with the target.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Rmf

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 10:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:PAK FA will have 5 large AESA radars in its front (nose and wings) which should provide enough radar energy to burn the little brain out of any ARH missile.

    DIRCMs should deal with all optically guided missiles like ASRAAM and AIM-9X etc.

    This suggests it will turn into a gun fight.

    Who was saying that manouverability wont be important... ohh that is right... the people with the less manouverable aircraft F-35 and F-22...

    Why don't I believe them?

    lol
    t-50 has 6 radars !!, 3 in nose , 2 in levcons ,1 in rear tail.
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    Rmf

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 10:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:The side panel arrays are full standard X band AESA radars and can do more than just listen for enemy radar.

    It can do pretty much anything the front facing X band radar can do...

    The fact that they are angled slightly down they would be useful as side looking radar for flying down a border and looking inside the enemy territory but Assuming 120 degree angle coverage they should allow monitoring of an attack without having to continue closing with the target.
    yes side radars and rear one  (they are same size) have 40% range of main radar , main radar has 400km range on 3 m2, so they will be able to launch r-77 to its full range easy -160-km.
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    Rmf

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 11:13 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    moskit wrote:F-22 has an edge over pak fa in beam and aft sector RCS .The frontal vlo performance is equally great for both these majestic aircrafts . It was supposed that sensor fusion would be an arena where Sukhoi would find it rather difficult to come up with a relavant mature solution. With the introduction of IMA BK mission computer and fire control complex developed in house, the critics may have been silenced. There is still some time to go. And the rear fuselage shaping will be refined, those cylindrical unstealthy nacelles will give way to faceted ones once Izdeliye 30 appears. then the rear and beam signatures will be as good as the F-35 if not better. Hope the prototypes coming out would carry these features.. expecting replays dear admins,, russia

    Does the F-35 have a facetted engine nacelle?  Does it has a concealed engine nozzle ala F-22?  Nope, yet both of these ommissions are routinely held up as "weaknesses" in the "non-stealthy" T-50 design.....

    Don't bother with the fuktardishness of HATOstani zealots.  They will inflate F-22/35 until they are godlike machines, while sledging the T-50 as a "primitive failure".....  stupid is as stupid does...
    there is ways to keep stealth approach https://public.bn1303.livefilestore.com/y3pMEglM8eNbbjhMJYiNOHR4zp3UgdaIh9THwXFu3ptbJ6sVJ0jOyQHNfLLX9daVm6-QkMzjtGduaQ0SFJyosZc9Y4-fV0FLc8hdtNifEw09go/F-22A%2015%20Intake.jpg?psid=1&rdrts=115256625


    ,sides of  intakes can be covered in very small holes like on f-117 which wont let radar go trough , you can treat ramps ,bleed air  ,ducts same way.
    rear nozzle there will be another layer of petals above those heat resistant ones, they will be able to curve as nozzle twists , maybe look similar to pangolin
    http://r.ddmcdn.com/s_f/o_1/APL/uploads/2015/11/pangolin-ARTICLE-PAGE.jpg
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat May 27, 2017 11:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:The side panel arrays are full standard X band AESA radars and can do more than just listen for enemy radar.

    It can do pretty much anything the front facing X band radar can do...

    The fact that they are angled slightly down they would be useful as side looking radar for flying down a border and looking inside the enemy territory but Assuming 120 degree angle coverage they should allow monitoring of an attack without having to continue closing with the target.

    They are small for anz usefull purposes than missile warning and observations.

    Oh, they can be used as communication channel as well.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PΑΚ-FΑ vs US fifth gen fighters

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 29, 2017 6:46 am

    Oh, they can be used as communication channel as well.

    They are full AESA radars... you could use them for ground mapping on either side of the aircraft with the lower elements and scanning or listening for emissions from aircraft with the middle and upper elements... you could use them to direct a radar beam of high intensity at an incoming radar guided missile like an AMRAAM to damage the seeker... or just listen to plot out enemy ground radar installations.

    The shoulder mounted L band radar antenna could be used to scan for stealthy targets or to listen for communications in the link12 datalink used by NATO.

    It could even detect course corrections sent to an AMRAAM missile in flight by the aircraft that launched it...


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