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    Syrian Civil War: News #13

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    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:21 pm

    Bit more on the F-18 attack from Washington. Yup, 50% hit rate at under 900m, still the Su-22 was new tech........oh wait

    Mary Walsh‏ @CBSWalsh

    New details on #Syria jet shoot down: US F18 fired 2 missiles at range of .6 miles; 1st missed, 2nd blew rear SU-22 off; chute spotted

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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:17 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Bit more on the F-18 attack from Washington. Yup, 50% hit rate at under 900m, still the Su-22 was new tech........oh wait

    Mary Walsh‏ @CBSWalsh

    New details on #Syria jet shoot down: US F18 fired 2 missiles at range of .6 miles; 1st missed, 2nd blew rear SU-22 off; chute spotted


    Sidewinders, 50% rate is not all that bad actually even on general scale. R-73 wouldnt cope any better either.
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    nomadski

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  nomadski on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:28 pm

    The Russians and Syrians and Iran do not have to do a hell of a lot in the air against yanks . In order to render their operations ineffective or not significant . A little S200 goes a long way . Once you shoot down one or two planes . Then the pilots of yank will drop their load early and escape at the bleep of nearest radar . But is best not to use the latest battle radar . Unless a big attack justifies giving away your secrets .

    It is better for SAM units to advance with army and shoot back in self defence . SAM is better and more defensive right now . If attacks continue . And they might . Then Russian pilots can engage a few times . This is more escalating . But has more chance of making yanks back down . Everybody is more scared of stronger airforce .

    How about this Russian statement of " everything to the west of the euphratees " !

    Reminds me about kurdish independence vote . There are individuals who identify with being kurdish . But there is no independent country that is kurdish . The kurds live in four different countries in the region . So the individuals who live in these countries and are not kurdish have a say . And if the vote of all individuals in these four countries was counted in . Then I am sure no majority in favour of independent kurdistan . If kurds are democratic , then they realise this . And forget about independent kurdistan .

    Should yanks and separatist kurds alliance continue . In a land grab . Then Iran and Iraq and Turkey and syria should form an alliance to fight the yanks and kurdish separatists . This East of the euphratees plan stinks too much of a separate kurdistan . The yanks are already staking their claim . And the Russians seem to be going along with it , with their west of the euphratees plan . But this plan will fail . An alliance needs to form now to break the separatist kurdistan plan . Soon isis will not hold any territory . And at that time the separatists need to be attacked . From all sides .





    Last edited by nomadski on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:33 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....

    Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?

    There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.

    Yes, after SU-22 was shot.

    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:02 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....

    Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?

    There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.

    Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
    I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?

    Wouldn't take Russia long to install more radars to make 'lighting up' Coalition aircraft easier. No need for SAMs with them. Well all of them anyway.

    I would expect the SAA, especially the Tigers in the north, to be taking as many anti-air assets along with them as they can find.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:06 am

    Latest from South Front on the pilot

    According to pro-government sources, Ali Fahed, a pilot of the Syrian Su-22 warplane downed by the US-led collation on June 18 has not been rescued yet.

    Al-Mayadeen TV network – one of the biggest Arabian news networks – claimed that the pilot was rescued by a special force from the Syrian Arab Army Tiger Forces. However, hours later Al-Mayadeen TV reported that the early claim was false and the pilot is still missing.

    According to pro-government activists, sources close to the Ali family claimed that he had been captured by the Syrian Democratic Force (SDF).

    Other sources from the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) also said that Ali was captured by a group linked to the SDF south of Tabqah and that negotiations are now underway between the group and the SAA to release him as soon as possible.

    However, none of these reports can be officially confirmed now. No official source from the Syrian government or the SDF has announced anything related to the fate of the missing pilot.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:17 am

    Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range. 91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.

    So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more. Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6. 48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:26 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....

    Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?

    There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.

    Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
    I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?

    Wouldn't take Russia long to install more radars to make 'lighting up' Coalition aircraft easier. No need for SAMs with them. Well all of them anyway.

    I would expect the SAA, especially the Tigers in the north, to be taking as many anti-air assets along with them as they can find.

    IF he was talking about radar coverage, in terms of pure observing, and aerial target detection in theory ranges for 91N6E should be even greater than 400km, closing 600km. However that depends on many, many things, from humidity to target altitude and jamming...

    However S-400 batallion can enjoy few types of radars, its not clear what Russians did bring to Syria beside 91N6E which is clearly present.

    Thing is that you can limit your radar coverage on console, question is why would you, no agreement can force you to do so basically. It can force you to not fly to some areas, or not intervene somewhere, but radar coverage is everyones right, be it military or civilian installation.

    I am afraid Tiger forces are not equiped or trained to operate extensive air-defence equipment, nor Syrains have any to spare. Problem is that Tigers and Hawks are trying to be mobile, which generally speaking air-defence isnt. So at best we can expect them seeing some SHORADs, Strela, Igla....
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:41 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range.  91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.

    So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more.  Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6.  48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.

    That is not how it really works i am afraid Smile

    48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.

    Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.

    So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.

    Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.

    Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:41 am

    Militarov wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The Russians will track everything from west of the Euphrates....

    Shouldn't they been doing that already? As well, according to the video I posted earlier on the other thread, the S-400's are only working at 60km instead of full 400km due to agreements. Did they decide to cancel agreement after US shot down the Su-22?

    There are no 40N6s in Syria, so that about 400km range is out of the question. Even if they had them, they would have hard time guiding it with so limited radar network.

    Yes, after SU-22 was shot.
    I know your expertise. Might Mike have been talking about radar power range rather than missile range?

    Wouldn't take Russia long to install more radars to make 'lighting up' Coalition aircraft easier. No need for SAMs with them. Well all of them anyway.

    I would expect the SAA, especially the Tigers in the north, to be taking as many anti-air assets along with them as they can find.

    IF he was talking about radar coverage, in terms of pure observing, and aerial target detection in theory ranges for 91N6E should be even greater than 400km, closing 600km. However that depends on many, many things, from humidity to target altitude and jamming...

    However S-400 batallion can enjoy few types of radars, its not clear what Russians did bring to Syria beside 91N6E which is clearly present.

    Thing is that you can limit your radar coverage on console, question is why would you, no agreement can force you to do so basically. It can force you to not fly to some areas, or not intervene somewhere, but radar coverage is everyones right, be it military or civilian installation.

    I am afraid Tiger forces are not equiped or trained to operate extensive air-defence equipment, nor Syrains have any to spare. Problem is that Tigers and Hawks are trying to be mobile, which generally speaking air-defence isnt. So at best we can expect them seeing some SHORADs, Strela, Igla....

    Of course it isn't Russia's interest to shoot down American planes but they made it clear from here on out that both aircraft and air defense systems will paint their planes west of Euphrates. As well, they limited the "engagement" envelope so they know when the plane is coming close to the airspace, and they mentioned this. But the agreement is within 60km zone, so once they reach close to it or in it, they paint the aircraft. I posted the video on it in the other thread.

    As I pointed out, the range from the Russian airforce base to where the Su-22 was shot down is 251 - 252km and basic 48N6 had that range with latest development upwards to 300km.

    Now mind you, it isn't Russia's job. It is Syria's. And this is where you are right, Syria cannot.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:43 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range.  91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.

    So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more.  Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6.  48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.

    That is not how it really works i am afraid Smile

    48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.

    Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.

    So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.

    Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.

    Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.


    Go on keypublishing forums.  TR1 whom was a member here and far more educated on these systems than us, explained it.  It was also mentioned by director of Almaz Antey back in 2012 that 48N6D was rated to 300km.

    TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):

    "The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.

    Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.

    The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.

    The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.

    It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total

    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:44 am

    Pilot may have been found. They put this up about an hour ago so well after the others.

    DAMASCUS (Sputnik) — On Sunday, a US jet shot down a Syrian Su-22 fighter-bomber near the city of Tabqah. The coalition said the Syrian aircraft attacked Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) positions, adding that the coalition downed the Syrian jet as part of "collective self-defense of Coalition partnered forces."

    "The soldiers of General Suheil al-Hassan discovered and rescued the pilot of the downed aircraft. Now, Col. Fahd is in hospital and nothing threatens his life," the source said. According to the source, the downed Syrian pilot was found about 30 kilometers (17 miles) south of Raqqa. The rescue operation was complicated by the fact that the pilot's landing site was in close proximity to the positions of Daesh (terrorist group outlawed in Russia) which also searched for the Syrian pilot.

    The command of the Syrian army stated that the downed Su-22 was involved in anti-Daesh operations and accused the coalition of coordinating strikes with the terrorists.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:47 am

    This phone line could be very quiet!

    The United States will keep an open line of communication with its Russian counterparts to deconflict operations in Syria after the US military shot down a Syrian fighter jet, White House spokesperson Sean Spicer said during a press briefing on Monday.

    WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — Earlier on Monday, the Russian Defense Ministry announced that it suspended the deconfliction channel with the United States for flight operations in Syria after a US jet had shot down a Syrian fighter jet near the city of Tabqa on June 18.

    "We’re going to do what we can to protect our interests," Spicer stated. "And we're going to continue to keep an open mind of communication with the Russians…it’s important and crucial that we keep lines of communication open to de-conflict potential issues."

    Also on Monday, US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Joseph Dunford said Washington will engage diplomatically and militarily with Moscow in the next several hours to restore the deconfliction line for operations in Syria.
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    kvs

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  kvs on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:50 am

    The mighty US air force managed to shoot the Syrian Su-22 only because they caught it completely by surprise.   That is,
    this incident was a stab in the back.   Trying to paint Americans as some sort of higher alien life form with IQs beyond that
    of mere primitives like Russians is the product of retarded fanboi fantasy.  

    As of now the US has lost its surprise stab in the back advantage and any Syrian aircraft will be fully informed of any Daesh
    airforce craft in its vicinity and those Daesh airforce wunderwaffe will be painted by Russian radar and S-400 system tracking.
    US and other NATO pilots will be uncomfortable in any cowboy improv.
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    calm

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  calm on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:05 am

    Some old photos of Resafa

    SAA captured historic Resafa today. Here are some photos of the place. And it's water tanks, i wonder what do they look like today.

    from 10+ years ago







    And from today
    Syrian Army soldiers assumed Daesh(ISIS) terrorists would destroy Al Resafa ruins but were surprised at how fast they collapsed & retreated















    JohninMK

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:06 am

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    eehnie

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:17 am

    Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.

    And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.

    Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.

    Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  AbdulhamidtheSecond on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:30 am

    The fight for the deserts doesnt seem to be ending soon, and by this Su-22 incident US has played its last card on its deck.

    The struggle for DeZ is expendable for Russia I think. Even I dont think that whole Syrian stuff matters Russian state masterminds that much. If it had, they would push even more than what we see today.

    What drives Syrian war is colonial race between Iran and US-Israel dualism. And DeZ is the place where the two coincide.

    Sooner or later, Raqqa will fall and PKK/SDF will be left with two choices, move to DeZ or trigger sum Turks. Second is more attracting for Kurds I know but without legalised(as if the others were too) airstrikes and already commissioned enemy, it would be hard for them to grab sum more land from ES. So US knows this fact too, then it highly likely to occur that they will be driven into an unknown fate through DeZ.

    In such a case, would Russia leave his Iranian and shiite counterparts alone or support them at all cost.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:42 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range.  91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.

    So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more.  Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6.  48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.

    That is not how it really works i am afraid Smile

    48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.

    Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.

    So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.

    Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.

    Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.


    Go on keypublishing forums.  TR1 whom was a member here and far more educated on these systems than us, explained it.  It was also mentioned by director of Almaz Antey back in 2012 that 48N6D was rated to 300km.

    TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):

    "The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.

    Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.

    The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.

    The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.

    It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "

    As i said it was a testing, it was never fielded, it was used as base for 40N6 development. It never reached any mature stage as itself.

    Same way i could come and say how Serbia has 140km range 262mm rockets for Orcan. Sure, development started, stuff has been worked on, it never reached units however. Just baseline variant was ever fielded.

    Fact that someone, somewhere, managed to do this or that, doesnt mean its allpresent, especially not in Syria. So, 250km it is, in ideal situation, which never occures.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:43 am

    eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.

    And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.

    Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.

    Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.

    Syria cant enforce no fly zone over two blocks of Damascus, let alone Syria lol Very Happy
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    Militarov

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:48 am

    kvs wrote:The mighty US air force managed to shoot the Syrian Su-22 only because they caught it completely by surprise.   That is,
    this incident was a stab in the back.   Trying to paint Americans as some sort of higher alien life form with IQs beyond that
    of mere primitives like Russians is the product of retarded fanboi fantasy.  

    As of now the US has lost its surprise stab in the back advantage and any Syrian aircraft will be fully informed of any Daesh
    airforce craft in its vicinity and those Daesh airforce wunderwaffe will be painted by Russian radar and S-400 system tracking.
    US and other NATO pilots will be uncomfortable in any cowboy improv.

    Oh yea... if it wasnt caught by suprise it would turn around and shoot down two F-18E down lol1
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:02 am

    calm wrote:Some old photos of Resafa

    SAA captured historic Resafa today. Here are some photos of the place. And it's water tanks, i wonder what do they look like today.

    from 10+ years ago

    .........

    Wow, just think about it, thousands of years ago wars were probably fought over that little crossroads with sticks and sharp metal and today you have same thing happening just with more advanced tools.



    Also:

    U.S. Moves Jets to Ease Syria Tensions Amid Russian Threat

    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/politics/articles/2017-06-19/russia-threatens-to-target-u-s-jets-after-syria-warplane-downed

    It seems that Pentagon remembered old wisdom: "Never horse around with nuclear Armageddon" Cool

    Seriously, do they have 6 year olds in charge of that place?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:09 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Maximum range tested in live exercises of 48N6D which is operational in Syria showed around 320-360 km range.  91N6E for a fighter sized target will be roughly over 400km.

    So yes, Russia can spot them at 400kms and more.  Maybe not exactly at 400km engagement but the distance where the jet was shot down was 156mi is 251km which is easily within the range of even basic 48N6.  48N6D is targeted at 300km with ranges tested as higher.

    That is not how it really works i am afraid Smile

    48N6D/M as claimed by Almaz has range of 250km. And there is no way in Hell its going to reach 360km in that variant suddenly for God knows what reason, especially not on some randoml live exercise so everyone suddenly got suprised "oh, great it can reach 360km". Those missiles were fired and tested for dozens if not hundred times before introduction, and ranges are well known and documented, long before any live exercise.

    Some subtype with work done on increased range, sure, no problem there. However i am not aware of any subtype ever being introduced, some internal work by Almaz, why not.

    So whoever and wherever reported that about 320km and 360km ranges, just wanted few clicks.

    Rocket fuel is not something that once can burn for 200km and second time for 260km, its very precise, differences in range for certain type of produced properly (and stored properly) shouldnt be more than few promiles.

    Dont get me wrong naturally i just hate when journalists post clickbite articles that have no solid base in reality.


    Go on keypublishing forums.  TR1 whom was a member here and far more educated on these systems than us, explained it.  It was also mentioned by director of Almaz Antey back in 2012 that 48N6D was rated to 300km.

    TR1 wrote:I'll just quote SOC (Sean O'Conner):

    "The weapon with the fixed control fins was a modified 48N6 fired in the 80s to see if they could get one out to 400 km as part of the initial development work on the S-400 concept; the ceiling was actually around 70 km for this test. It worked! They re-captured the missile using the modified TOMB STONE radar as it descended to about 20 km and guided it from there.

    Only the 48N6 uses directional warheads, the 5V55s did not.

    The SAGG guidance mode confers a higher degree of accuracy than pure TVM, relatively speaking, making the concept workable at range from an accuracy standpoint.

    The 48N6 and 5V55 missiles do use a semi-ballistic trajectory, they top out around 38 km. They also are moving at around Mach 6 at burnout (motors run for about 10 seconds on the 5V55s and 12 seconds on the 48N6s). That velocity means very small control inputs translate into significant course deviations. The problem is that the missile bleeds off kE as it maneuvers, which causes it to lose velocity, which leaves it with less kE to maneuver again, and so on. The system gets around this by not going into full guidance mode until endgame, meaning your RWR gear likely isn't telling you "holy crap we've been shot at" until the missile is only a few seconds away. That solves part of the problem by leaving you far less time to maneuver, which is advantage: missile. Plus, again, you've got a nice big warhead to exploit as well.

    It's the total combination of engagement geometry, velocity, and warhead capability that makes the system effective, even at very long range. "

    As i said it was a testing, it was never fielded, it was used as base for 40N6 development. It never reached any mature stage as itself.

    Same way i could come and say how Serbia has 140km range 262mm rockets for Orcan. Sure, development started, stuff has been worked on, it never reached units however. Just baseline variant was ever fielded.

    Fact that someone, somewhere, managed to do this or that, doesnt mean its allpresent, especially not in Syria. So, 250km it is, in ideal situation, which never occures.

    As said by SOC, even at very long range it is effective.  It was mentioned in 2012 by the developers that 48N6D maximum range is 300km.  You can question it all you want but SOC knows his shit and has been talking about this for almost over a decade on keypublishing forums.  Wish he was still around wherever he is so he can finally put this to rest.  Since the Radar systems would see the targets farther than 400km then the missile would reach its destination quite well.  Within the 300km range of the 48N6D/M and as mentioned, would fly in then turn on its sensors at near last minute giving no time for the jets to circumvent the launch.

    The simple fact that Russia stated they would use both their AF and SAM systems to target and engage aircrafts west of the Euphrates gives indication that they know their own system. The mentioned range of 48N6E that you mention is based upon export model. They don't use export of their own hence why it is called E at the end of it. Add to that, if they knew they couldn't they wouldn't bluff like that AND then pull off the communication structure. If US didn't believe them, they wouldn't have now eased off their aircrafts to prevent provocation.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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    eehnie

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:15 am

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.

    And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.

    Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.

    Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.

    Syria cant enforce no fly zone over two blocks of Damascus, let alone Syria lol Very Happy

    Fairly wrong. Fairly silly comment that put yourself in the right place. Selfdamage.

    Vann7

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #13

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:04 am

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Well, No-Fly Zone has been officially stablished for the US and allies in most of the Syrian territory.

    And has been stablished with the explicit compromise of Russia of enforcing it.

    Russia and Syria would not do it if they would not be ready to do it at this point.

    Of course the tricks of the US trying to dress their employees of Kurds worked not.

    Syria cant enforce no fly zone over two blocks of Damascus, let alone Syria lol Very Happy


    IM sure that what you call a weakness is not so much a military limitation but
    a policy limitation ,that is Rules of Engagement.  combined with Syria lost of of 75%
    of it territory. Since land is important to expand early view of air defenses.

    Im sure that your same retarded comments , could be said about Russia , that Russia
    can't defend Syria ,because see how many times US and Israel bomb Syria with impunity. Rolling Eyes


    and how about Turkey shutdown of Russian plane?.
    Does that means that Russia s-400s can't shut down an F-16? Rolling Eyes

    So the problem with Amateurs in military like you ,is that they think wars are like
    movies ,but in real world there are something called RULES of Engagement
    that any nation follows , this are guideline and rules every country have to get the best
    possible outcome of any conflict.

    from wikipedia


    Rules of engagement (ROE) are rules or directives to military forces (including individuals) that define the circumstances, conditions, degree, and manner in which the use of force, or actions which might be construed as provocative, may be applied.[1] They provide authorization for and/or limits on, among other things, the use of force and the employment of certain specific capabilities.


    Now you laugh at Syrian air defenses ,that were (setup by Russia) , are failing ,but
    you fail to see ,that Syria lost more than 75% of its territory since 2011 ,and it have
    NATO special forces all over Syria , "training" the terrorist they call rebels "to fight ISIS".
    So is easy to judge a nation like Syria capabilities when is already invaded by NATO from all sides and it have dozens of thousands of terrorist withing 5km of its own capital. So Russia
    air defenses were not designed to intercept mortar artillery.  And they are only effective
    if used in a land with plenty of space and duplicated nodes of early defenses ,just to extend
    the battle field all the way to your borders. Something Syria can't do. Because it don't control most of its borders.

    about the controversy of S-400s capabilities.
    if any one forgot how just last year under Obama administration ,the US military
    bombed Syrian army for 1-2 hours with two A-10 air support bombers and 2 f-16s.
    and killed close to 100 Syrian soldiers.  So what happened ,did anyone forgot that
    incident?

    What is ? that Russia military ,is so incompetent that
    their S-400s or Russian airforce can't defeat planes from the vietnam era attacking
    their soldiers? No..  Russia use heavily a set of Rules ,that they have for themselves
    and will not publish , to say when to fight and when to wait and so on.

    So before Russia shutdown an American plane ,it needs first a first attack to happen.
    and depending on the gravity of the attack then a warning follow with United Nations
    security council emergency meeting. and if the attack continues either an ultimatum or
    to start the shut down of their planes. So Far Russia is now in ultimatum mode now.
    but is only warning of potentially retaliations depending on the case. but after some point
    after warnings and ultimatums and emergency meetings at UN , (done to get world opinion
    on Russia side and isolate United States support in the world) then after all things done to warn Americans to stop , if they still continue then is when planes will start to fall from the sky. but not earlier.  For the amateurs ,that don't know ,Rules of Engagement is extremely important in wars. Because if done right ,it can give you Public opinion on your side. And world history is full of examples of wars that were lost because.. there was no public support for it.. where US win all the battles but lose the war..because of lack of Public support. Vietnam anyone?

    So Syria is unable to properly defend itself consequence of many factors...
    1)losing 75% of its territory , no control of borders. so can't paint NATO planes before
    they enter in Syria first. and advance deep inside.
    2) Rules of engagement , Syria and Russia will try to not provoke another war with NATO
     until Syria borders controlled and the war on the syrian territory finally over. so it doesn't
    need to divert their forces to fight NATO and can focus them to fight ISIS.
    3)Losing a lot of its early warning radars to guide their missiles , to make it more jamming proof their missiles.

    when it comes to Russia S-400 capabilities ,unless you believe the Russian military
    lies about their capabilities. They are on record saying. after Russia gave an ultimatum to
    the Pentagon under Obama ,over the 2 hours attack on Syrian army. The general of Russia army told two interesting things.
    1)That amateurs (like you) , that believe invisible planes exist will be facing a new hard cold reality.
    2)That their NATO partners will be surprised ,to discover the real range of S-400s.

    So i have no reason to believe ,that when Russian government funded media RT claims
    S-400s missiles have 400km range and track targets all the way to 600km away,using official promotional material  ,i have no reason to believe they lie.

    but then you have one of the top generals of Russia military saying ,that NATO will be surprised
    to discover the real range of S-400s. So what is that ,is not confirmation that S-400s not only
    have S-400s range but it even surpass it and by a lot.  If you look at the size of those missiles
    it should not be impossible to get them fly all the way to S-500s range of 600km.

    S-200D "Dubna" under wikipedia is rated at 400km range a missile created in the 90s.
    So all this debate about range of S-400s ,whether it can reach 400km or not ,skeptics
    are only the less educated people of all , not aware of what the Russian military top general have said ,not aware either of already available info of S-200s. After all take a look at the range Russian cruise missiles can achieve when using subsonic speeds. 2000km.  So Russia
    could easily extend the range of any missile ,by modifying the weight of the missile ,its warhead etc.. and by not pushing it fastest speeds early on the flight. but also by adding external booster to the missile ,just like S-200s have. No problem. i see no reason to think
    Russia general staff have bee lying about their S-400s potential. after all 400km is not a new world record ,their S-200s last revisions could do it. and ignore TR1 supposed knowledge.
    he was the one claiming Russia don't have T-80s on its inventory. and clearly he was wrong.

    So to summarize ,what a good air defense system really is..
    is not deploying missiles in one side of a country and nothing in the other side.
    the borders needs to be protected too, and early warning radars and early short range defenses deployed too , to reinforce the long range missiles either S-200s, S-300s or S-400s.
    But this is not enough because Planes can fly low ,hide behind mountains to avoid detection.
    So this is were Airforce is needed. and as you know Russia only have 4-6 planes for that role.
    Su-30s and SU-35. that are the only ones Russia can use to protect Syria full airspace. but that they only use to escort their bombers.


    Syria air defense capability will improve dramatically the more territory they capture ,
    and deploy early radars over mountains etc. and if american continue bombing Syrian army
    then the Rules of engagement will end. and anything will be valid. Means NATO planes could be shot down even before they enter in Syria airspace. This is what Air defense is all about.
    Their real power is only visible in full scale war. S-400s in Syria will only reveal its real capability in a major  war with NATO. Since S-400s will be downing NATO planes
    way before they enter in Syria. so the are not allowed even to try. and if the war continues.
    Russia can use Iskander to hit the airbases from were NATO planes take off.. or american warships sinked by submarines that launch cruise missiles to Syria.  and thats how Air defenses are supposed to be really used. not for defense but for offense. not waiting enemy planes to enter in your country but shutting down their planes in their own airspace..So no matter how good an air defense system is , if you only use them defensively ,then you are doing something wrong.and a strong airforce is as important as the S-400s, they both need to work together .to keep enemies away of your borders. Until before the incident of the Syrian plane shutdown, Russia was operating with major limitations of their rules of engagement . They are very useful
    if done right ,because allows to minimize the possibility of a full scale war and keep things to the level of a military game but that people die ,and so that each side can measure its capabilities while maintaining an open channel for diplomacy. a couple of dozens of Tors and pantsirs defenses moved secretly closer to enemy positions bases could become the biggest treat to NATO and not the S-400s. Because they are mobile and they can shutdown planes without a warning and using passive radars.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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