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    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 15, 2017 1:32 am

    Well, at least Russia isn't ignoring the issue. KOSMOS 2504 is an example.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Tue May 16, 2017 12:53 pm

    The long-awaited launch of the Proton-M launch vehicle is once again postponed

    According to the publication "Air & Cosmos" in the article Nicolas Pillet "Nouvelles incertitudes sur le retour de Proton", the launch of the EchoStar-21 satellite, produced by Space Systems / Loral, for the first quarter, was postponed due to malfunctions in the RD-0201 engine of the second stage of the rocket Carrier "Proton-M".

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2610966.html


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 16, 2017 1:48 pm

    George1 wrote:The long-awaited launch of the Proton-M launch vehicle is once again postponed

    According to the publication "Air & Cosmos" in the article Nicolas Pillet "Nouvelles incertitudes sur le retour de Proton", the launch of the EchoStar-21 satellite, produced by Space Systems / Loral, for the first quarter, was postponed due to malfunctions in the RD-0201 engine of the second stage of the rocket Carrier "Proton-M".

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2610966.html

    Good news.

    Sooner this Proton stupidity and all it's associated mafia goes down the toilet, sooner more useful and non obsolete platforms will finally get proper attention.

    This ancient ponzi scheme should be thrown to the trash once an for all before it takes down entire Russian space program with it.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 16, 2017 4:29 pm

    Roscosmos assets would be liquidated asap if they were to completely collapse. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. Sometimes restarting an agency or organization is better when doing it from ground up. Easier with previous assets.

    But this is getting ridiculous. It means that Roscosmos could be sitting idle with no contracts till Angara is released.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 16, 2017 8:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Roscosmos assets would be liquidated asap if they were to completely collapse. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. Sometimes restarting an agency or organization is better when doing it from ground up. Easier with previous assets.

    But this is getting ridiculous. It means that Roscosmos could be sitting idle with no contracts till Angara is released.

    Roskosmos dogmatically clinging to obsolete platforms is what is holding back Angara.

    Money wasted on annual rent of Baikonur alone would be enough to plug all budgetary gaps for Angara, Vostochni and Federation combined and leave some to spare.  

    And don't even get me started on Proton because you would be looking at a wall of angry text... Mad
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 17, 2017 3:07 am

    Well, Angara will be released close to schedule since they are moving production to Omsk and doing heavy production testing.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 18, 2017 11:31 pm


    It turned out that there are plenty of fresh news about Russian space program (AKA reason I am here to begin with) but apparently nobody bothers to translate them to English. WTF?  angry
    What became if that notorious Soviet propaganda apparatus that MSM thought me dread since childhood?  No

    I guess I have to do job instead of the Bears... there is couple of fresh articles on Federation tread too...



    RSC Energia: it is cheaper to create a new super-heavy rocket than to reproduce Energia

    http://tass.ru/kosmos/4259841



    The launch of the Spektr-RG observatory was postponed from March to September 2018

    http://tass.ru/kosmos/4257908



    Even transport companies don't want to have anything to do with this crap. One more step towards getting rid of this junk thumbsup

    Roskosmos did not find contractors to deliver Proton to Baikonur to launch ISS module

    http://tass.ru/kosmos/4255581

    Module in question was Nauka and fiasco surrounding it is a whole new and exciting story in itself. I smell same Proton/Baikonur related group of rats at work.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 19, 2017 1:36 am

    So I take it that Soyuz-2 will be Russia's main launch for satellites for some time then until Angara is ready?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri May 19, 2017 10:59 am

    miketheterrible wrote:So I take it that Soyuz-2 will be Russia's main launch for satellites for some time then until Angara is ready?
    Angara won't replace Soyuz variants. A1.1/A1.2 are smaller, and the larger A3 isn't going to be developed (at least not for the foreseeable future), and is probably redundant if Phoenix/Sunkars gets a go ahead.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Fri May 19, 2017 7:40 pm

    many news and all of them bad... Sad
    like i predicted russian space program is in shambles , its a wreck , and major malfunctions and resource wastefulness is continuing on unprecedented scale. (losing customers ,paying penalties for delayed launches).
    all the while usa private sector is steamrolling ahead.... Laughing
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 19, 2017 8:18 pm

    Rmf wrote:many news and all of them bad... Sad
    like i predicted russian space program is in shambles , its a wreck , and major malfunctions and resource wastefulness is continuing on unprecedented scale. (losing customers ,paying penalties for delayed launches).
    all the while usa private sector is steamrolling ahead.... Laughing

    All GOOD news and all related to Proton and Baikonur. Long may they continue until that junk is finally replaced. thumbsup

    This is only bad news if you are Borat's cousin. lol1



    Question: will USA private sector be launching VKS military satellites? Or anything Russia related? Didn't think so.

    So while USA private sector pumps the PR with government subsidies, Angara is coming along (or you still subscribe to Zak's bullshit theories?)

    And when subsidies dry up? Oh humanity.... Razz
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 19, 2017 9:46 pm

    How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 19, 2017 9:50 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    How Gorbachev Destroyed the USSR's Military Space Program, & What It Cost Russia



    https://sputniknews.com/military/201705141053608174-gorbachev-soviet-military-space-program/

    I'm sad about the cancellation of the CCCP space program, but otherwise that was a huge financial burden to the SU.

    Example the GLONASS satellites in the 80s had magnitude shorter life than the US ones, means the whole space program had one magnitude higher running cost than the US one.


    But of course there is no excuse for  the devastation that the whole gorbacsov management did.

    Your cost estimate is simply nonsense.   The Soviet command economy did not run on prices and costs.  It ran on
    command directives for resource allocation (including jobs).   The ruble was a voucher to make daily consumer
    transactions simple.    The USSR designed pressurized satellites instead of vacuum systems that is why they
    did not last long.   Now Russia designs vacuum exposed satellite control systems and the lifespan has shot up.
    But the USSR could conduct vastly more launches than Russia, where things that could be done easily 30 years ago
    are now too expensive, so the lifetime was not a limitation to ongoing coverage.

    Cost = human working hours.

    The pressurised satellite bus cost more than a not-pressurised one, and has shorter lifespan.


    Of course Russia is way more effective than the SU was.

    Russia manage to way more with the available resources .
    Are your serious? The only thing that the capitalist Russian space program has done is mismanagement and sabotage of soviet leftover technology and doing announcements of postponement. If the soviet union still existed, the light angara would be already in service.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri May 19, 2017 9:55 pm

    The free market and globalist pacifism has destroyed the development of space technology throughout the world. When military technology is forbidden to be used in spacecraft and they're only allowed to be developed for peaceful purposes, we see the complete global stagnation of space technology and the shriveling of space programs with the return of an occasional commsat launch and shitty useless consumer software app developers whose only achievement is putting shitty filters and emojis in smartphones having billions more dollars than space programs. Ah, human pacifist her mentality and ignorance go hand in hand.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 19, 2017 10:37 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?

    What are you asking exactly? Fuel is fine.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 20, 2017 12:47 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:many news and all of them bad... Sad
    like i predicted russian space program is in shambles , its a wreck , and major malfunctions and resource wastefulness is continuing on unprecedented scale. (losing customers ,paying penalties for delayed launches).
    all the while usa private sector is steamrolling ahead.... Laughing

    All GOOD news and all related to Proton and Baikonur. Long may they continue until that junk is finally replaced. thumbsup

    This is only bad news if you are Borat's cousin. lol1



    Question: will USA private sector be launching VKS military satellites? Or anything Russia related? Didn't think so.

    So while USA private sector pumps the PR with government subsidies, Angara is coming along (or you still subscribe to Zak's bullshit theories?)

    And when subsidies dry up? Oh humanity.... Razz
    yes ,yes ,malfunctioning rockets are a  good thing but only in papadragons selfdelusional world.....

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?
    it cant , they are streching the design to its limits and exposing to higher risks of something going wrong....
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat May 20, 2017 1:39 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?

    What are you asking exactly? Fuel is fine.


    As you see the impulse of existing rocket fuels is unbelievably shitty. Rockets that use liquid hydrogen have extreme trouble getting loads much lighter than those that the angara is advertised to carry to even LEO. With such shitty impulse, and such massive weight, how do we expect the angara to be revolutionary?

    Without the invention of metallic hydrogen or nuclear propulsion rocket technology will never progress.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 20, 2017 2:26 am



    yes ,yes ,malfunctioning rockets are a good thing but only in papadragons selfdelusional world.....

    I'm gonna break it down for you one more time rmf just because you are not ultron:

    Proton is finished

    Baikonur is finished

    Kazakhstan is redundant

    Either you move on to new platforms or your space program becomes scientific equivalent of North Korean or Iranian military

    With every failure of Proton they are one step closer to moving on from useless toxic obsolete Soviet junk

    I assumed that once Angara gets off the ground they will fast track dumping of Proton but Mafia has dug in to deep

    This should dislodge them good and proper

    Let the bitch burn, future waits for no one russia
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat May 20, 2017 2:27 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?

    What are you asking exactly? Fuel is fine.


    As you see the impulse of existing rocket fuels is unbelievably shitty. Rockets that use liquid hydrogen have extreme trouble getting loads much lighter than those that the angara is advertised to carry to even LEO. With such shitty impulse, and such massive weight, how do we expect the angara to be revolutionary?

    Without the invention of metallic hydrogen or nuclear propulsion rocket technology will never progress.

    Angara is not supposed to be some sci-fi revolution. So don't spread BS.

    Russia is actually developing a 1 megawatt class nuclear ion engine for space propulsion. That is revolutionary since the USA has only been
    promising inertial trips to Mars. Active propulsion would cut the trip down from six months to about one month.

    Metallic hydrogen is something that people who don't know physics would envision as being usable. The core of Jupiter is
    metallic hydrogen because of gravitational compression. Without such compression hydrogen gas cannot be forced into a solid sate.
    A more extreme variant of this is neutronium. Neutron stars can be composed of neutrons because of extreme gravitational compression
    which overcomes the usual neutron decay into a proton and electron with a 22 minute half-life. Trying to have this material exist
    in a low gravity environment in some sci-fi construct is physically impossible since it would literally blow up in an explosion of
    epic proportions. Metallic hydrogen would decompose explosively as well and no rocket storage tanks can be constructed to keep it compressed.
    This is not CH4 and LNG since hydrogen freezes at 14 K.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-achieve-early-stages-of-a-new-solid-state-of-hydrogen

    No metallic hydrogen solution is going to be commercially viable for rocket propulsion.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat May 20, 2017 2:33 am

    kvs wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:How does the heaviest version of the angara achieve the delta V required when existing nonnuclear chemical energy fuels are so pathetically weak?

    What are you asking exactly? Fuel is fine.


    As you see the impulse of existing rocket fuels is unbelievably shitty. Rockets that use liquid hydrogen have extreme trouble getting loads much lighter than those that the angara is advertised to carry to even LEO. With such shitty impulse, and such massive weight, how do we expect the angara to be revolutionary?

    Without the invention of metallic hydrogen or nuclear propulsion rocket technology will never progress.

    Angara is not supposed to be some sci-fi revolution.  So don't spread BS.  

    Russia is actually developing a 1 megawatt class nuclear ion engine for space propulsion.   That is revolutionary since the USA has only been
    promising inertial trips to Mars.    Active propulsion would cut the trip down from six months to about one month.  

    Metallic hydrogen is something that people who don't know physics would envision as being usable.    The core of Jupiter is
    metallic hydrogen because of gravitational compression.   Without such compression hydrogen gas cannot be forced into a solid sate.
    A more extreme variant of this is neutronium.   Neutron stars can be composed of neutrons because of extreme gravitational compression
    which overcomes the usual neutron decay into a proton and electron with a 22 minute half-life.   Trying to have this material exist
    in a low gravity environment in some sci-fi construct is physically impossible since it would literally blow up in an explosion of
    epic proportions.   Metallic hydrogen would decompose explosively as well and no rocket storage tanks can be constructed to keep it compressed.
    This is not CH4 and LNG since hydrogen freezes at 14 K.  

    https://www.sciencealert.com/physicists-achieve-early-stages-of-a-new-solid-state-of-hydrogen

    No metallic hydrogen solution is going to be commercially viable for rocket propulsion.  

    Thats the whole point, metallic hydrogen is unlikely and thats why all chemical energy rockets will always be really shitty at escaping the earth's gravity well.

    Nuclear ion propulsion is all well and good, but is it space only or can it be launched off the ground. If it can't escape the earth's gravity well, then it will always be tethered to near useless ultra expensive chemical fuel rockets, thus not improving space exploration much.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat May 20, 2017 3:27 am

    And there in lies the issue, we simply don't have such propulsion engines and wont for a long, long time.
    The only way to partially sidestep this issue is to make a launch platform on the moon, IMO.

    I just realized, i haven't ask what would be the Specific Impulse or Delta-V from Russia's upcoming Pulse Detonation rocket engine (PDRE), given it's higher efficiency??
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 20, 2017 4:27 am


    rmf wrote:
    it cant , they are streching the design to its limits and exposing to higher risks of something going wrong....

    Suffer under the power of cold data:

    Max payload:

    Proton - 22.800 kg

    Angara 5 - 24.500 kg

    Borat BTFO Razz  attack
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 20, 2017 10:19 am

    Actually the future looks more like an air breathing jet powered craft to fly to space and back.

    Once scramjets are perfected and the issues of high speed flight within the atmosphere are dealt with an aircraft that takes off horizontally and accelerates up to orbital speed inside the earth atmosphere and then lobs payloads into space to glide back down and land on a conventional air strip is the most efficient way of getting things to orbit.


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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat May 20, 2017 1:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually the future looks more like an air breathing jet powered craft to fly to space and back.

    Once scramjets are perfected and the issues of high speed flight within the atmosphere are dealt with an aircraft that takes off horizontally and accelerates up to orbital speed inside the earth atmosphere and then lobs payloads into space to glide back down and land on a conventional air strip is the most efficient way of getting things to orbit.

    Pulse detonation engines are the only ones with the necessary thermodynamic cycle characteristics. Brayton cycle engines won't cut it.
    Russia is pushing pulse detonation engine development hard. But as you note, the spaceplane concept is the most efficient since it leverages
    the lifting potential of the atmosphere fluid. For rockets this fluid is just a drag that reduces their efficiency.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat May 20, 2017 11:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually the future looks more like an air breathing jet powered craft to fly to space and back.

    Once scramjets are perfected and the issues of high speed flight within the atmosphere are dealt with an aircraft that takes off horizontally and accelerates up to orbital speed inside the earth atmosphere and then lobs payloads into space to glide back down and land on a conventional air strip is the most efficient way of getting things to orbit.

    High speed scramjet needs hydrogen, but that has low density- means the drag will be high.

    So realistical the scramjet has quite low chance to be succesfull.

    Maybe orbital drop scramjet should be more possible.

    But the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylon_(spacecraft)#SABRE_engines can be interesting - but no one know that it will fly ever.
    Quite complicated design, needs a lot of debuging to work.

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