Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Share
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5021
    Points : 5129
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 24, 2017 5:12 am

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3304669


    On Monday, President Vladimir Putin held a meeting on the prospects for the development of the rocket and space industry.
    As it became known to Kommersant, the approach to the construction of launching tables for a family of carrier rockets of the Angara type was approved in principle.
    It is assumed that their number at the cosmodromes of Plesetsk and Vostochny will be reduced in aggregate from four to two, and the construction of the launch at the latter will be conducted with the assistance of the Ministry of Defense.
    So "Roskosmos" can meet the budget, estimated at about 340 billion rubles.

    On May 11, a meeting with the president with the participation of Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, the head of Roskosmos Igor Komarov, representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry, the Ministry of Finance and top managers of the branch enterprises of Kommersant reported on May 11. On Monday, in an open part of the meeting, Vladimir Putin suggested discussing the prospects for the development of Earth remote sensing satellites (by 2020 their grouping should consist of at least 15 apparatuses). "You can think about the further commercialization of these services and the expansion of services in the domestic and foreign markets," he said.


    That the general director of the Khrunichev Center, Andrei Kalinovsky, spoke about the future of the Angara and Proton
    The closed part of the meeting was devoted to other topics, say two sources of Kommersant in the space industry. One of the main issues was the development of infrastructure at the cosmodromes Baikonur, Plesetsk and Vostochny for the period until 2025. It was assumed that the federal target program (FTP) would be approved at the end of 2015, but at a special meeting with the president, the deadlines were shifted for 2016: the maneuver was associated with the construction of the second phase of the Eastern. Subsequently, monetary disagreements also affected: the first versions of FTP were estimated by experts in the amount of about 1 trillion rubles, but under pressure from the government's financial and economic block, the amount was reduced by about a quarter. In his last interview with Kommersant, Igor Komarov admitted that even the abbreviated parameters "do not fully fit into the current budget possibilities," but this "only concerns the period 2017-2019." The total amount of the program, which the head of Roskosmos called in December 2016, was to be about 550 billion rubles. Of it more than 400 billion rubles. It was planned to start on the East, and the remaining funds - for the reconstruction and modernization of the objects of Baikonur and the military cosmodrome Plesetsk.

    However, on Monday after the meeting, Igor Komarov said that the FTP was included in the government: "I think that with a funding limit, we are ready to meet the volume of about 340 billion rubles." According to him, "some optimization of starting facilities is likely" and, in addition, "thanks to this program, further development of our relations with Kazakhstan and the development of joint projects will be ensured." According to Kommersant's information, "certain optimization" means refusing to build four launching tables for the Angara space rocket complex: there will be one launch in Plesetsk and the East. Moreover, the construction of the launch facility on the East will be conducted with the assistance of the Ministry of Defense, which laid the funds for the construction of the second site in Plesetsk. Thus, Roskosmos will be able to compensate for the reduction in the volume of FTP without serious losses, and the military will use it to withdraw their vehicles. At the same time, at the meeting it was decided to abandon the construction of a separate installation and testing building for the Angara and spacecrafts on the East (the already built MIC for the Soyuz-2 and MIK missiles for satellites will be used). On Monday, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that all the programs planned for the East have not undergone any changes. "By 2021, we plan to ensure the launch of the Angara, so the launch pad is being built. Already after the year 25 we will have to ensure the launch of the Angara already with a hydrogen block (it will be built on the RD-0150.- " Kommersant " engine), "the Deputy Prime Minister stressed. The site on the East, we will note, will be unified both for "Angara-A5P", and for "Angara-A5B".

    Separately, with Vladimir Putin, rocket engineering was discussed. So, the president set the task to accelerate the development of the superheavy missile, which was originally planned to be developed within the framework of the Federal Space Program until 2025, but because of the program's reduction almost doubled (to about 1.5 trillion rubles), the project was postponed for the future.

    The theme of the Baiterek project, which involves the reconstruction of the launch pad for joint Russian-Kazakh launches, was raised separately. "We plan to immediately begin developing a medium-range missile with the expectation that it would be competitive on the commercial services market with the latest American developments, so as not to lose this market," the vice premier said. He specified that its carrying capacity would be about 17 tons. In terms of its parameters, it will be as close as possible to the Ukrainian Zenit rocket that was assembled at Yuzhmash, that is, to launch it at Baikonur it will not be necessary to build a new start-it will be enough to modernize the one from which Zenit's took off. The very design of the missile, called "Soyuz-5", will become part of the work to create a superheavy missile.

    From what I can tell they dropped two Andara launchpads per spaceport and are going with a single one but this is several years old news since ruble crash.

    They also say that they will not build separate assembly building for Angara on Vostochny and will use existing one for both Soyuz and Angara. OK makes sense since current one is more than big enough and Angara launchpad is literally next to Soyuz one.

    Due to budget cuts military will take over construction job at Vostochny (or part of the job, can't tell from translation) Also not a fresh news but this is probably official confirmation.

    Basically money problems. Military will pick up the slack and get to launch their satellites as compensation so it will not strictly be civilian spaceport anymore (am I reading that right?).

    As for Angara launch schedule nothing is supposed to change. So by extension same goes for Federation because Baikonur will be getting that new launchpad for Zenit derivative (Sunkar/Soyuz 5) but no new launchpads will be built there so no Angara on Baikonur hence no Federation launches from there. They seem to be very specific about not building new pads on Baikonur and reusing existing Zenit pad.

    That is what I am able to dig up but could be wrong. dunno

    Can any Russian speaker please read original text and elaborate because I am in the dark with this machine translation? Question
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1113
    Points : 1113
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 24, 2017 5:21 am

    So Plestek is being modified to launch Angara and it is under military branch?
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed May 24, 2017 12:30 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:So Plestek is being modified to launch Angara and it is under military branch?

    Plesetsk already has an Angara launch pad, and it was used for the A1.2P and A5 tests (was converted from the unfinished Zenit pad).
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed May 24, 2017 1:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Angara is not powerful enough for beyond earth orbit missions and even with super heavy (1xSunkar+4xAngara) it will take two launches to reach the Moon (in orbit assembly)

    Not quite - the Energia-5V/VR proposed 100T class SHLV would be comprised of 1xSunkar core and 4xSunkar strap-ons (not Angaras).  Yes, it needs 2 launches to acheive a lunar landing, but just 1 for lunar-version Federation and tug to acheive lunar orbit, or rendevous with a lunar station.

    I really like this architecture.  A 100T class launcher reduces the ground infrastructure requirements, and the E-5V is nicely sized for large orbital modular constructions.  Beyond the first few manned surface missions, future efforts are probably best acheived by first rendevous with an orbital station, and then transferring to a reuseable descent/ascent lander vehicle for journeys to/from lunar surface (necessarily using hypergolics).  Once an orbital station has been constructed (using modules launched using E-5Vs) further launchs would be used for manned Federations, heavy cargo craft (incl fuel for landers) and replacement landers once they reach their operating lifetime limit.

    Image from Zak Libtardski website - note the comparison to the proposed Angara-5V upgrade in the lower RHS corner (personally I feel the A-5V would be a useful intermediate launcher for 35T category, but then the same could be acheived with E-5V with reduced strap-ons and upper stages)
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 502
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Wed May 24, 2017 8:40 pm

    my god the situation is worse then even i predicted , and i was right about everything so far , so its going to get worse. loss of focus ,bickering ,and smaller and smaller funds, with infinite postponements ,dark days ahead.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5021
    Points : 5129
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 24, 2017 9:04 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    ...........................
    Image from Zak Libtardski website - note the comparison to the proposed Angara-5V upgrade in the lower RHS corner (personally I feel the A-5V would be a useful intermediate launcher for 35T category, but then the same could be acheived with E-5V with reduced strap-ons and upper stages)


    That concept has been abandoned for manned launches because hydrogen is not safe enough (instant detonation in case of failure).

    But it is still a go for cargo launches.

    I am surprised Zak isn't all over that latest report on space programme. Looks like there really might not be anything new there after all, just rubber-stamping decisions made months/years ago.

    Rmf wrote:my god the situation is worse then even i predicted , and i was right about everything so far , so its going to get worse. loss of focus ,bickering ,and smaller and smaller funds, with infinite postponements ,dark days ahead.

    Since I am in need of entertainment I will pretend to care and ask you: What would you think they should do? How should this problem be solved in you opinion?







    Last edited by PapaDragon on Wed May 24, 2017 10:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1113
    Points : 1113
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 24, 2017 9:27 pm

    Rmf wrote:my god the situation is worse then even i predicted , and i was right about everything so far , so its going to get worse. loss of focus ,bickering ,and smaller and smaller funds, with infinite postponements ,dark days ahead.

    you weren't right about anything. Quote where you are right.
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 448
    Points : 448
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed May 24, 2017 10:01 pm

    Rmf wrote:my god the situation is worse then even i predicted , and i was right about everything so far , so its going to get worse. loss of focus ,bickering ,and smaller and smaller funds, with infinite postponements ,dark days ahead.

    Like, you know, the Frod class supercarrier, or the F-35?
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Thu May 25, 2017 12:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    That concept has been abandoned for manned launches because hydrogen is not safe enough (instant detonation in case of failure).


    Oh God not this Hindenburg BS. Hydrogen is no less safe than kerosene. If there is a detonation the cosmonauts are f*cked in both
    cases. The Hindenburg burned orange-yellow as the solid rocket fuel that the Germans used as silver paint (aluminum powder and iron oxide) burned
    the canvas cover. It would never have been a disaster if it did not have a highly ignitable coating that could easily be triggered by static
    electricity. The hydrogen would have remained safe inside the cover from such lightning related discharges if they had used their brains.


    But it is still a go for cargo launches.

    I am surprised Zak isn't all over that latest report on space programme. Looks like there really might not be anything new there after all, just rubber-stamping decisions made months/years ago.

    To save money the heavy launcher is going to be based on Sunkar class modules powered by RD-171M four nozzle rocket engines. That is rather
    clear from all the press coverage.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5021
    Points : 5129
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 25, 2017 1:58 am

    kvs wrote:.......

    To save money the heavy launcher is going to be based on Sunkar class modules powered by RD-171M four nozzle rocket engines.  That is rather clear from all the press coverage.  

    I am sure that press coverage in Russian language is pretty clear but coverage in English is abhorrent as always.

    Seriously, if someone actually made an effort to properly translate space related articles to English language then Zak would have been out of job long ago.

    But since nobody does then he gets to rant and BS people all he wants and is taken seriously because he is only game in town.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Thu May 25, 2017 2:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    kvs wrote:.......

    To save money the heavy launcher is going to be based on Sunkar class modules powered by RD-171M four nozzle rocket engines.  That is rather clear from all the press coverage.  

    I am sure that press coverage in Russian language is pretty clear but coverage in English is abhorrent as always.

    Seriously, if someone actually made an effort to properly translate space related articles to English language then Zak would have been out of job long ago.

    But since nobody does then he gets to rant and BS people all he wants and is taken seriously because he is only game in town.

    I agree 100%. Russian government agency PR is zero or negative. The Russian media is too busy engaging in comprador
    activity to actually portray an accurate picture of Russian reality.

    To be clear, the press coverage is ambiguous enough that I should not have used the word clear. But it looks like
    the consensus is to use the Zenit replacement as a modular element similar to the Angara concept. There are economies
    by constructing modules which can serve both as individual rockets and as assembly elements in a large rocket.
    At this stage it is not clear that hydrogen will be used for the upper stage. It complicates the design and infrastructure.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1170
    Points : 1329
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu May 25, 2017 6:56 am

    At least Russia has several future rocket designs to rely on in case one fails while the US only currently has the delta 4.

    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 25, 2017 2:08 pm

    kvs wrote:At this stage it is not clear that hydrogen will be used for the upper stage.   It complicates the design and infrastructure.

    I certainly hope they do adopt a Hydrolox upper stage as it gives a big boost to lift capability.  I don't see any reason why they shouldn't as Russia has mastered Hydrolox technology (eg the R-0120, the most powerful LH2/LOX engine ever built) and just needs to dust off the Soviet-era blueprints - and I'm sure they have already as part of the groundwork in developing the KTV upper stage for A-5.

    I don't really see that it complicates the design, just adds another requirement to the Vostochny launch complex where LH2 manufacture, storage and transfer facilities need to be built, and the pad gantry needs piping for cryogenic fuels. In any case Russia will need to build LH2 facilities to service the Angara pad and support the use of KTV.

    Finally, if India can build a part-cryogenic launcher in the GSLV, it's insane to think that Russia can't given her past experience with the Energia SHLV.

    .....

    .....

    ..... waiting for a certain troll to declare Russia "don't have no money" or some similarly absurd Atlantacist 5th-columnist libtard rant.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu May 25, 2017 2:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:That concept has been abandoned for manned launches because hydrogen is not safe enough (instant detonation in case of failure).

    LH2 upper stages were used on Saturn-1 & 5 without incident.
    LH2 external tank feeding SSMEs was used on Shuttle witout incident (to be fair, the solid-fuel blowtorch that killed Challenger had zip to do with use of hydrogen)
    LH2 was the fuel selected for Energia/Buran.
    LH2 is used by Delta IV heavy for future launches of Orion/MPCV

    Yeah, its fair to say that LH2 is safe.
    avatar
    Project Canada

    Posts : 613
    Points : 620
    Join date : 2015-07-20
    Age : 29
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Project Canada on Sat May 27, 2017 11:35 am


    Tass learned to postpone the launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation


    Roscosmos plans to move the first launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation" in the 2022 and hold it from the Baikonur Cosmodrome on the new launch vehicle of the middle class "Phoenix" and abandon the rocket "Angara-A5P"


    http://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/27/05/2017/59292af39a79475ac50500a5?from=main

    I can tolerate the delay, but moving its launch to Baikonur is a big mistake. Wth is the purpose of Vostochny if manned flights will be retained in Baikonur? Rolling Eyes
    I feel like there is a traitor inside Roscosmos or whatever agency is responsible for these decisions
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat May 27, 2017 1:04 pm

    Project Canada wrote:

    Tass learned to postpone the launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation


    Roscosmos plans to move the first launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation" in the 2022 and hold it from the Baikonur Cosmodrome on the new launch vehicle of the middle class "Phoenix" and abandon the rocket "Angara-A5P"


    http://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/27/05/2017/59292af39a79475ac50500a5?from=main

    I can tolerate the delay, but moving its launch to Baikonur is a big mistake. Wth is the purpose of Vostochny if manned flights will be retained in Baikonur?  Rolling Eyes
    I feel like there is a traitor inside Roscosmos or whatever agency is responsible for these decisions  

    Let's just say that all these forecasts are written in shit. Somebody want it this way, but whether they get what they want is a different story.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1113
    Points : 1113
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat May 27, 2017 3:35 pm

    Yes, it is one of those wait and see things. No one really knows for now.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5021
    Points : 5129
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 27, 2017 5:49 pm


    Federatsiya spacecraft’s first flight may be rescheduled to 2022 - source

    The launch will be made on a new carrier of the middle class, which is being made now under the Feniks project

    http://tass.com/science/947990

    MOSCOW, May 27. /TASS/. Roskosmos plans rescheduling the first launch of the Federatsiya crewed spacecraft from 2021 to 2022 and to make it from Baikonur on the Feniks new middle-class carrier, sources at the space sector told TASS on Saturday.

    Formerly, the first launch was planned for 2021 from the Vostochnyi pad on the Angara class carrier.

    "Roskosmos suggests reviewing the plans to launch the Federatsiya crewed spacecraft and to relocate the launch to the Baikonur port. The launch will be made on a new carrier of the middle class, which is being made now under the Feniks project. This project will be implemented in the framework of the Bayterek complex. This would not require major changes to the spacecraft, as the new carrier would be using RD-170M forced engines, and the tests of this complex are planned for 2022," the source said.

    Besides, the source continued, organization of the infrastructures for piloted launches from the Vostochnyi spaceport (assembly-testing facility for manned spacecraft, life support systems on the launch pad, infrastructures to accommodate crews) may be postponed until super-heavy carrier for Moon flights is designed.

    "Due to the changed carrier for the spacecraft’s launch, the decision is to refuse from work on a piloted version of Angara-A5P carrier. Manned programs will return to the Vostochnyi cosmodrome only in the beginning of construction of the launch complex for the super-heavy carrier after 2025," the source said, stressing the new plans would not affect construction of the Angara launch complex, which is still due by 2021, though the launch now is planned not with a piloted spacecraft, but with unmanned payload.

    The super-heavy carrier will be used in the piloted program to fly around the Moon and land on it. For that, the industry will be working on a heavier and bigger 20-tonn version of the Federatsiya spacecraft.

    "The first stage of work on the super-heavy carrier will be implemented at the Baikonur spaceport, as the Feniks carrier and Federatsiya spacecraft are tested," the source said.

    Roskosmos has given no comments.
    ..................................................

    (Rest of the text is obsolete tripe)


    This is seriously getting annoying....

    OK so overall plan, as of now, should be:

    Soyuz 2 series remains light/ultra-light cargo launcher, LEO: 2,8 tons  (no surprises there, track record is staggering)

    Angara 1.2 for larger payloads, LEO: 3,8 tons (military will like this one)

    Angara A5 for medium payload, LEO: 24,5 tons. This is replacement for Proton basically which means that even though it will not be man rated it will however facilitate commercial and more importantly, scientific missions without blowing up mid-flight.  

    Man rated Angara A5P is canceled due to making larger Fenix rocket primary launch platform for Federation.  

    Federation spacecraft proceeds with one year delay and new launcher.

    Fenix is new super heavy launcher and designated platform for Federation spacecraft. Core stage only for LEO, strap on boosters (Angara modules most likely) will be added for deep space missions.  

    Baikonur will be used for testing and Federation launches in the initial stage and probably for manned missions to LEO.

    Vostochny will have Soyuz and Angara pads for cargo launches. Construction of Angara launchpad proceeds as scheduled. Launchpad and facilities for Fenix rocket and Federation spacecraft will be constructed after they are ready and lunar program gets underway. (This means delay in construction start for manned missions but not necessarily, they might start after Angara pad is completed or they may be a pause in between)

    So Baikonur gets to keep manned launches and gets Federation missions but only for LEO.

    Vostochniy will be used for big ticket projects like deep space manned missions and Moon/Mars projects. Also, nothing will be stopping them from launching to LEO from Vostochniy as well should they need to.


    I was pissed off beyond belief when I heard about this but upon reading trough it I think it might work.

    Vostochniy will be used for high value manned missions to Moon and Mars and super heavy launches like more complex deep space probes/rovers, space telescopes and larger space station components.

    Regrettably, Baikonur will get be used for Federation missions. However only for testing and to LEO afterwards.

    This is very annoying but when you think about it, if Russia plans to spend eternity stuck in Low Earth Orbit then it does not matter if they do it from Russia or Kazakhstan.

    -----------------

    Question

    KVS, I need to ask you something: do you think that this new setup could be result of Kazakhstan actually contributing financial resources to these new projects for a change? As in real money?

    If they did, then I just might despise them bit less...

    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1113
    Points : 1113
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat May 27, 2017 6:24 pm

    It will for sure. Kazakhstan relies a lot from the financial aspects of the launching of manned space missions from Russia and thus they will foot some of the bill to be able to keep that option. The days of them trying to blackmail Russia over it is over, and they realized that with Vostochny, they can just upgrade the facility to be able to do everything + more than what Baikonur can and at a less than needed time frame too.
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 502
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 11:29 pm

    Project Canada wrote:

    Tass learned to postpone the launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation


    Roscosmos plans to move the first launch of a new manned spacecraft "Federation" in the 2022 and hold it from the Baikonur Cosmodrome on the new launch vehicle of the middle class "Phoenix" and abandon the rocket "Angara-A5P"


    http://www.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/27/05/2017/59292af39a79475ac50500a5?from=main

    I can tolerate the delay, but moving its launch to Baikonur is a big mistake. Wth is the purpose of Vostochny if manned flights will be retained in Baikonur?  Rolling Eyes
    I feel like there is a traitor inside Roscosmos or whatever agency is responsible for these decisions  
    no money , sunkar is launched on modified launch pad for zenit in kazahstan . so they will manrate it.  told you angara cant be manrated. and that heavy hydrogen version of 35t will fail  too.
    they are coming slowly to the same path -as i wrote here long ago ,split angara modular approach in 2-  heavy 4 engined urm and light single engine urm.

    my idea was that those engines too should be the same not different -and some kind of nk -331 version 175t. so urm-1 should be smaller that way and finally transportable to vostochny ,and a1 replace all light launchers, and angara -a3 can replace soyuz. light a5 will carry 20t no more. heavy a5 will have 20 engines on boost with 20% more thrust so 80% thrust of N1 moon rocket,  with 3rd hydrogen stage you can get 90-100t to leo.
    heavy and light urms should be interconnectable  , that way you vary take off thrust and payload capacity widely.


    Last edited by Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 11:42 pm; edited 3 times in total
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 502
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Sat May 27, 2017 11:39 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:It will for sure.  Kazakhstan relies a lot from the financial aspects of the launching of manned space missions from Russia and thus they will foot some of the bill to be able to keep that option.  The days of them trying to blackmail Russia over it is over, and they realized that with Vostochny, they can just upgrade the facility to be able to do everything + more than what Baikonur can and at a less than needed time frame too.
    shows lack of strategic planning which is a must, and total absence of solid policy with different interest groups fighting for position, thus wasting money and time,  they are like monkeys in the dark playing rockets.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 28, 2017 6:26 am

    http://tass.com/science/947990

    "sources at the space sector told TASS on Saturday"....   "Roskosmos has given no comments."  Hmmm....  who exactly are these sources, and are they at least partially credible?  

    I've always looked on manned launches from Vostochny as a strategic imperative to gurantee Russian manned access to space, but times are a-changing, and its possble that with the increased pace of Eurasian integration and the Chinese-led OBOR "new Silk roads" megaproject, Moscow may be confident in its long term relations with a stable Kazakhstan that won't be overthrown by a US-backed color revolution.  Additionally, the Kazakhs know that Russia will abandon Baikonur if they attempt to screw them on rental, and they are more sober on what they can reasonably expect.

    Reflecting on all this, it may actually be a good move, as long as there is a LEGALLY BINDING agreement between Russia and Kazahstan, guaranteeing Russian access to Baikonur (at low/zero annual cost) and recognising joint-ownership of at least some of the facilities.  The Kazakhs front up some (half?) of the development costs for the pad (so Russia saves some cash),  the more southerly location gives a little more performance to the vehicle, and  Roskosmos gains the advantage of the vast Kazakh steppes for launch abort and crew recovery operations (greatly reducing the safty implications of an inaccurate landing of the Federation manned capsule as compared to wooded Vostochny).

    I still have some nagging technical queries however.  Sunkar is generally attributed to have a lift capability of 17,000kg to LEO, matching the full loaded weight of the LEO version of Federation (ignoring orbit inclination).  Are we supposed to simply accept that there will be no lift margin, or room for mass increase?  Why go for a rocket that just satisfies the lift requirement, rather than using the A-5P with approx 7-8T of spare lift for future developments?

    If the zenit pad at Baikonur is going to reworked for Sunkar and if LEO version of Federation will be tested and put into operation there, what happens to the design of the Vostochny A-5 pad?  Will it retain facilities for access to a manned capsule, or will it be an unmanned pad and essentially a backup to the existing (military) pad at Plesetsk?  I imagine the latter if A-5P is not going to be developed.

    Facilities for Energia-5K/5KV are too far down the road to consider much at this stage, but it would be prudent to allow for a manned Sunkar launch capability as part of the 2025 lunar development, ie design the pad to faciliate the launch of a single Sunkar manned stack?.  Given that a 5K/5KV lunar landing would be a 2-launcher mission without a lunar station as a waypoint,  would there be two pads or just one?  Likely just one, and the lander vehicle would need to sit in LEO for a number of months while the 2nd (manned) launch is progressed.

    Finally, one final demand should be made - Kazakhstan has to transfer ownership of the Buran orbiters back to Russia.  These artifacts of Russian space history have been looted and left to rot under their "care", a total and utter fucking disgrace and one for which the appropriate authorities should be jailed.  If they can't (or won't) take proper care of these birds, give them back to someone who can & will.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sun May 28, 2017 6:51 am

    Looks like a primary objective is to recycle Zenit infrastructure. The Sunkar is basically a Russian made Zenit with Banderastan left
    to dick stroke itself senseless in its nazionalist hate for Russia. Big_Gazza raises important questions about the specifications of the
    Sunkar, but the answer seems to be save money by making a Zenit variant. I also do not think that manned modules are limited by
    the specs of the Sunkar since it is going to be a modular, Angara type, system. If they want some crew module and lunar lander then
    they can launch the heavy variant or assemble the system in LEO.

    The choice of the name Sunkar is pandering to Kazakhstan already. As for whether the nepotistic regime in charge actually shells out
    some serious coin, I am not so sure. I get the feeling that Kazakhstan is Banderastan light and its rotten leaders want to receive money
    and not give it away. I really don't see how Russia can ensure reasonable behaviour on the part of these clowns. Since Russia wants to save money
    by using the Baikanur Zenit infrastructure, these f*ckers have leverage. Russia needs a real vision and not penny pinching idiocy even if
    that means taking two years to build a "Zenit" launch pad at Vostochny. They will need one anyway.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 28, 2017 6:56 am

    Rmf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:It will for sure.  Kazakhstan relies a lot from the financial aspects of the launching of manned space missions from Russia and thus they will foot some of the bill to be able to keep that option.  The days of them trying to blackmail Russia over it is over, and they realized that with Vostochny, they can just upgrade the facility to be able to do everything + more than what Baikonur can and at a less than needed time frame too.
    shows lack of strategic planning which is a must, and total absence of solid policy with different interest groups fighting for position, thus wasting money and time,  they are like monkeys in the dark playing rockets.

    No, the plan was determined by a strategic concern that Russia might have been denied access to manned space and heavy Proton pads in the event of a color revolution in Astana, similar to what has happened in other ex-Soviet nations, also by concerns that Kazakhstan leaders could squeeze Russia for excessive rents.  Plesetk isn't ideal for manned flights being too Northerly, so Vostochny was a logical development.  Angara was championed by the military to provide a fully local alternative to allow heavy military payloads from Plesetsk, so it was a logical choice for a new manned launcher (instead of wasting cash on a new launcher like Rus-M).

    If Kazahstan can now be considered reliable, this calculation can change.  Vostochny is still a useful launch center, and can specialise in civilian launches, its Angara pad gives a backup to Plesetsk for national-security payloads, but manned launches (which are NOT national security) can still be primarily based in Baikonour where the energy-to-orbit is lower and the vast steppes offer more options for launcher & recovery operations.

    This is NOT a lack of strategic planning, its the very OPPOSITE.  The plan is DOMINATED by strategic planning, and strategies must be able to change as global geopolitical reality shift.

    Of course, you are too much of a Putin-hater troll to see the wood for the trees, and I'm sure you've blocked me by now as you've demonstrated a great intolerance to being publically corrected.... russia
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 711
    Points : 731
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun May 28, 2017 7:26 am

    kvs wrote:Looks like a primary objective is to recycle Zenit infrastructure.    The Sunkar is basically a Russian made Zenit with Banderastan left
    to dick stroke itself senseless in its nazionalist hate for Russia.   Big_Gazza raises important questions about the specifications of the
    Sunkar, but the answer seems to be save money by making a Zenit variant.    I also do not think that manned modules are limited by
    the specs of the Sunkar since it is going to be a modular, Angara type, system.   If they want some crew module and lunar lander then
    they can launch the heavy variant or assemble the system in LEO.  

    The choice of the name Sunkar is pandering to Kazakhstan already.   As for whether the nepotistic regime in charge actually shells out
    some serious coin, I am not so sure.   I get the feeling that Kazakhstan is Banderastan light and its rotten leaders want to receive money
    and not give it away.   I really don't see how Russia can ensure reasonable behaviour on the part of these clowns.   Since Russia wants to save money
    by using the Baikanur Zenit infrastructure, these f*ckers have leverage.    Russia needs a real vision and not penny pinching idiocy even if
    that means taking two years to build a "Zenit" launch pad at Vostochny.   They will need one anyway.

    Regarding Zenit infrastructure, there isn't much to recycle. One pad available for modification, one utterly ruined, though I suppose the fuelling and service facilities have a significant value as long as they are maintained. When was
    the last Zenit launch from Baikonour? Zenit was a great rocket, but post-USSR split, it was always fucked up by Ukropi corruption, incompetance and lack of cash, so an all-Russian modernised equivalent would be an excellent asset.

    Regarding the lift spec, they could strap a few Angara URM-1 to the first stage if they need to boost lift capacity. It would prudent to base the Sunkar pad gantry on the Angara design and allow for a slightly wider core (4.1 instead of 2.9m) and up to 4x URMs. I wonder if, given the relatively small increase in core size, its conceivable that the Vostochny pad could be redesigned to accomodate a slightly larger core and therefore be compatible with a Sunkar cluster?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:23 pm