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    Chinese copyright of russian weapons

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    Russian Patriot

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    Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:27 am

    Did China sign the deal on SU-35 yet?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:00 am

    Hard to say... all the comments about deals are coming from the makers of the products or exporters of products, and nothing from the Russia government.

    I think all we can say is that China is interested, and the lack of governmental denials suggest that under the right terms this could go ahead.

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:34 am

    J-10 is a total copy of Su27
    J-11 is a total copy of Su30


    Russia should put the foot down now, either China pays up or it will not get Su-35s.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:50 am

    A couple of follow on orders for a total of 200-300 Su-35s would be very profitible for Sukhoi and would likely drive down the cost of the Su-35 for the Russian AF who could order more aircraft too.

    I was initially against the sales myzelf, but at the end of the day if they don't buy Su-35s it is only a matter of time before the EU drops its sanctions and tries to sell them Typhoons and Rafales and Gripens.

    The Su-35 the Chinese get will not be the Su-35 the Russian AF will get.
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    SOC

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  SOC on Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:31 am

    victor7 wrote:J-10 is a total copy of Su27

    Have you seen a J-10?

    victor7 wrote:J-11 is a total copy of Su30

    The J-11 is a license-built Su-27SK. The J-11B is the problem, it's a J-11 with Chinese engines, avionics and weapons that isn't covered by the license production deal as far as I know.

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:16 pm

    Looking that J10/J11 if they have no symbols, one would mistake them for Su-27/Su30........very easily. Chinese are shameless copycats, accept that!

    vK_man

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  vK_man on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:57 pm

    Airforce? Russia should be heavily investing into reconstructing/advancing its torsional/scalar ,Narrowband HPM arsenal alongside civil defence.

    Airforce won't save russia in a full scale nuclear/biological war.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:04 pm

    Have you seen a J-10?

    SOC ,believe me, the effort is completely wasted ,we can see here the most clear example of the nefarious effects of low level mantras and mental loops , absorbed in years in low level media, on the mind of a young guy.

    In F-16.net it would find its perfect environment and i have also strongly suggested to him this solution but it seem that it want at any cost to remain here for teach to us that J-10 is a retro-engineered ....Su-27 Razz Razz


    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:15 pm

    keep you suggestions up your long and never ending sentences that i don't find easy to read. thank you!
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    TR1

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:20 pm

    J-10 has nothing to do with Su-27 (aside from AL-31 engine).

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:23 pm

    http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/4607

    Doing what China does the best!
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    SOC

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  SOC on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:47 am

    victor7 wrote:Looking that J10/J11 if they have no symbols, one would mistake them for Su-27/Su30........very easily. Chinese are shameless copycats, accept that!

    This is a J-10. If you're confusing this with an Su-27 or Su-30, then I don't know what else to say dunno

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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:16 am

    Russia-China Su-35 Fighter Talks Frozen

    RIA Novosti

    12:31 17/04/2012 KUALA LUMPUR, April 17 (RIA Novosti) - Negotiations on the sale of Russian advanced Su-35 Flanker-E fighters to China have been put on hold over Beijing’s refusal to buy a large consignment, Russian state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday.

    “We have been promoting the Su-35 fighter on the Chinese market,” Rosoboronexport deputy chief Viktor Komardin said.

    “However, China only wants to buy a limited number [of aircraft] whereas we want [to sell] a large consignment to make [the deal] economically viable.”

    He offered no indication of the numbers involved

    The negotiations have been ongoing for more than one and a half years.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2012/04/mil-120417-rianovosti01.htm

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:24 am

    Shameless Chinese want to copy the Su-35s and then become a competition in the arms market. No deal if they do not buy atleast 10-12 dozen 35s.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:55 am

    They can't even copy its engine, I rather suspect its other good bits will be too hard too, but I agree with Russias stance... buy lots or none.

    I rather suspect that when the US starts introducing F-35s to the region that China might change its tune... unless the Europeans get so desperate for money they offer to sell some Euro canards for knock down prices... but then after China cancels the deal after 4 have been delivered they will have burned all their bridges.

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:57 am

    Chinese will outright copy the technology. Indians demand a tech exchange openly. That is why they refused Mig-35 because a) Rafeal was stealthy b) total technology transfer where Russia would offer only kit assembly c) 50% reinvestment into Indian industries where as Russia was offering only 30% but then Mig35 was nearly half the price too.

    Fine, if Indians learn a new trick or two from Rafeal technology and apply it on PakFa then good for both Russia and India. They might need stealthy planes to have force multiplier type advantage over Pak or China.

    Anyone going after Rafeal or EFT and overlooking Su-35 is just throwing money away. Good training and tactics make up alot more than any 10-20% difference in the total complex capabilities.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:00 am

    Chinese will outright copy the technology. Indians demand a tech exchange openly. That is why they refused Mig-35 because a) Rafeal was stealthy b) total technology transfer where Russia would offer only kit assembly c) 50% reinvestment into Indian industries where as Russia was offering only 30% but then Mig35 was nearly half the price too.

    If China could copy that easily why do they import Russian engines for their YF-17s... the engines they import are RD-33s with the gearbox shifted. The RD-33 entered Soviet service in the mid 1980s but the Chinese are unable to copy it themselves.

    Regarding the Indian MRCA competition... a) there was not stealth requirement in the competition so that is irrelevant. The so called stealth of the Rafale requires minimum external weapon carriage so it is largely irrelevant anyway. B) if that were true how did Mig make it to the later stages of the competition? AFAIK Mig were offering joint development and production as per the requirements. Mig has dealt with the Indians before and know what they want.

    The real reason that the Mig was rejected is because it is Russian and Mig could hardly change that.

    I have no problem with the Indians saying they want diversification of products, my problem is that they waited till Mig had spend a lot of time and money before telling them they were wasting their time... which I do have a problem with.

    Mig already have contracts for upgrading in service Indian Mig-29s to UPG level, and of course they have the contracts to make the naval K models for India and Russia.

    Anyone going after Rafeal or EFT and overlooking Su-35 is just throwing money away.

    Politics and fashion have more influence on military purchases than you seem to give credit for.

    An example is South Korea buying F-15Ks instead of Su-35s... there is no chance for South Korea to buy Su-35s because they are Americas btch and if you cross the US like that you end up like Iran or Venezuela...

    victor7

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:07 am

    Politics and fashion have more influence on military purchases than you seem to give credit for.

    Another logic of Indians was they wanted to diversify the political handshakes with everyone, US, Russia and EU. However, they forget that handshakes are good only till the real test arrives and then people start avoiding even eye contacts. India-Russia friendship is well tested over years and decades, but it seems they wanted to chum upto the French also.


    ps: Anybody remember Gaddhafi? how horribly he was back stabbed by both French and his beer buddy Silvo Berluscuni of Italy.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:03 am

    Certainly buying political support is part of the deal when you buy military equipment, but the problem is that the US can be quite fickle and self centred... notice their reaction to India testing a nuclear weapon?

    India-Russia friendship is well tested over years and decades, but it seems they wanted to chum upto the French also.

    That raises another point... the MRCA competition probably never would have come up if France had agreed to sell India some more Mirage 2000s. The logic behind diversification is to improve stability and reliability in case someone lets you down.

    To integrate a Rafale into Indias air defence network France will need access... and it was French input in Syrias air defence network that allowed the Israeli Suder to work... Once bitten?

    But I am sure India can trust France... but if France leaks things to their NATO ally the US is it possible that the US might leak these things on to Pakistan? Or for Chinese spies in the US intel community to find out...

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  victor7 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:26 pm

    The French also virus infected the Iraqi IADs in 1991 with similar 'regular servicing' type request and at the time of attack, the screens were blank, so as to speak.

    Indians fear the spare parts unavailability from the Russians. But they seem to forget that 1990s were a very different times. However, Indians themselves are bad in managing their own shops. In 1999 border war with Pak, Indian diplomats were running around with suitcases full of hard currency, to places like Romania and South Africa. Romania to buy 100,000 Ak-47s and South Africa to buy artillery shells for their guns. Some 'unimpressive' defense planning. What a Face
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    GarryB

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    chinese copyright russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:07 am

    Indians fear the spare parts unavailability from the Russians.

    Spare parts and support don't just happen... it needs planning and preparation and investment.

    Taking 5 years to negotiate a deal and then the product arrives and it has a low service rate because you saved money by agreeing to an on demand spares agreement that leaves aircraft grounded while new spares are negotiated and bought is a false saving. Money needs to be spent on a spare parts pool that is kept topped up in case of problems... that is something that needs to happen on the customer side. The alternative is to pay for a customer service centre to be set up in country that can produce parts and overhaul and maintain equipment... it is not cheap but it means reduced repair costs overall and also better operational performance.

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    runaway

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  runaway on Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:50 pm

    An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight (HMS) system first appeared on J-11A(SU-27), not clear if its mounted on J-15.

    "TAIPEI — In an unusual departure for mainland Chinese-language media, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network (SMN) criticized the capabilities of the carrier-borne J-15 Flying Shark as nothing more than a “flopping fish.”

    On Sept. 22, the state-controlled China Daily Times reported the new aircraft carrier Liaoning had just finished a three-month voyage and conducted over 100 sorties of “various aircraft,” of which the J-15 “took off and landed on the carrier with maximum load and various weapons.” This report was also carried on the official Liberation Army Daily.

    Contradicting any report by official military or government media is unusual in China given state control of the media.

    What sounded more like a rant than analysis, SMN, on Sept. 23, reported the new J-15 was incapable of flying from the Liaoning with heavy weapons, “effectively crippling its attack range and firepower.”

    The fighter can take off and land on the carrier with two YJ-83K anti-ship missiles, two PL-8 air-to-air missiles, and four 500-kilogram bombs. But a weapons “load exceeding 12 tons will not get it off the carrier’s ski jump ramp.” This might prohibit it from carrying heavier munitions such as PL-12 medium-range air-to-air missiles.

    To further complicate things, the J-15 can carry only two tons of weapons while fully fueled. “This would equip it with no more than two YJ-83K and two PL-8 missiles,” thus the “range of the YJ-83K prepared for the fighter will be shorter than comparable YJ-83K missiles launched from larger PLAN [People’s Liberation Army Navy] vessels. The J-15 will be boxed into less than 120 [kilometers] of attack range.”

    Sounds like the Chinese soon will order a few MiG29K, then copy and build 100 more..
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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:10 pm

    runaway wrote:An improved domestic Chinese helmet mounted sight (HMS) system first appeared on J-11A(SU-27), not clear if its mounted on J-15.

    "TAIPEI — In an unusual departure for mainland Chinese-language media, the Beijing-based Sina Military Network (SMN) criticized the capabilities of the carrier-borne J-15 Flying Shark as nothing more than a “flopping fish.”

    On Sept. 22, the state-controlled China Daily Times reported the new aircraft carrier Liaoning had just finished a three-month voyage and conducted over 100 sorties of “various aircraft,” of which the J-15 “took off and landed on the carrier with maximum load and various weapons.” This report was also carried on the official Liberation Army Daily.

    Contradicting any report by official military or government media is unusual in China given state control of the media.

    What sounded more like a rant than analysis, SMN, on Sept. 23, reported the new J-15 was incapable of flying from the Liaoning with heavy weapons, “effectively crippling its attack range and firepower.”

    The fighter can take off and land on the carrier with two YJ-83K anti-ship missiles, two PL-8 air-to-air missiles, and four 500-kilogram bombs. But a weapons “load exceeding 12 tons will not get it off the carrier’s ski jump ramp.” This might prohibit it from carrying heavier munitions such as PL-12 medium-range air-to-air missiles.

    To further complicate things, the J-15 can carry only two tons of weapons while fully fueled. “This would equip it with no more than two YJ-83K and two PL-8 missiles,” thus the “range of the YJ-83K prepared for the fighter will be shorter than comparable YJ-83K missiles launched from larger PLAN [People’s Liberation Army Navy] vessels. The J-15 will be boxed into less than 120 [kilometers] of attack range.”

    Sounds like the Chinese soon will order a few MiG29K, then copy and build 100 more..
    I just HATE the chinese of copying aircraft they almost have no aircraft they madr 100% self they even copied the f-35!!!!! (Just forgot the name) so maybe an future chinese carrier has j15 and mig 29 copy! So an indian mig-29K Will be Able to destroy a J-15 thats Nice!
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:28 pm

    Id rather have them copy than innovate, one time they did it was gunpowder- and we all know the rest.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Chinese copyright of russian weapons

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:32 am

    Everyone copies everyone if they have an advanced enough industrial base. If any advanced foreign military technology enters Russia; no way it's going to be left alone. Why should it be any different for China?

    The USSR and US copied each others designs and ideas during the Cold War; the USSR in fact made a direct copy of the B-29 (i.e. Tu-4) and several other vehicles in the late 40s. As soon as one came up with a new idea - it was copied; for instance - America took the Soviet implementations of the ICBM, IFV, Anti-ship missiles and created its own versions. Of course the whole anti-ship missile thing was actually first tried out by Nazi Germany; the Soviets merely popularised it.

    In more modern times; NATO managed to get its hands on the newest Soviet tech and engineers; T-80s, Yak-141 designs, early S-300 & MiG-29 versions, etc... and has taken them apart for all that they were worth and absorbed everything useful into its own designs.
    Russia is following suit - UAVs, light armoured vehicles, radios, electronic systems, etc... all bought from abroad with the agreement of the host countries; sometimes only in the single digits, which are then taken apart and learned from by Russian engineers and specialists; or otherwise just produced under license; with the eventual aim to incorporate these technologies into the next generation of Russian products anyway.

    China's only real crime is not doing this legally so to speak; with the agreement of the host country. I'm sure that Russia was more than happy to have China pick apart its Su-27 designs.. as long as China bought the 100 Su-27s or so that it promised to buy as per the contract.
    The trouble was that China cancelled after only a few deliveries; and this is what's really responsible for the Russia indignation over that episode; not the actual fact that the Chinese were going to try to learn everything they could from weapon systems that they fully paid for.

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