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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:07 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Boeing just makes better cargo planes. The Il-96 (whatever cargo version) has a horribly inefficient power-plant arrangement, narrow and rather small fuselage and severely outdated design of weak, RB211ish engines; straight from the late 80s.

    Who cares if it is a little bit better. Il-96 can do the work. They can also update the design since it was designed in the 90s. Not that much complicated and they already have russian engines for it.

    Russia is a huge country. You need the best plane to fly cargo, efficiently and make money. Having investigated the blades on a PS90 I can say that it's a very dated blade design. Overall, it can't compete and when it comes to spares, I'm pretty sure those are not readily available worldwide.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:33 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Boeing just makes better cargo planes. The Il-96 (whatever cargo version) has a horribly inefficient power-plant arrangement, narrow and rather small fuselage and severely outdated design of weak, RB211ish engines; straight from the late 80s.

    Who cares if it is a little bit better. Il-96 can do the work. They can also update the design since it was designed in the 90s. Not that much complicated and they already have russian engines for it.

    It's not little bit better, it's infinitely superior

    Il-96 is barely produced in stock version, cargo version doesn't even exist

    By the time they get around making one Volga-Dnepr would go tits-up

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 am

    IL-96-400 Transport version

    http://www.ilyushin.org/en/aircrafts/transport/1189/

    Russian Economy gains nothing importing boeing but gains every thing buying IL-96-400 , Buying Boeing is like subsidising your enemy

    When the time comes they will even deny you spares for aircraft purchased

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:32 am

    Inside Putin's private jet and how it compares to what Trump gets in Air Force One
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:31 am

    Russia is a huge country. You need the best plane to fly cargo, efficiently and make money. Having investigated the blades on a PS90 I can say that it's a very dated blade design. Overall, it can't compete and when it comes to spares, I'm pretty sure those are not readily available worldwide.

    Well, I just had a look and they are creating the PD-18R for IL-96-400T (177 kN).

    They have to start with something. They are not building any new thing since soviet union. They started with small SSJ. Now they will go with bigger MS-21, then something bigger like Il-96 and finally even bigger pak-ta and an-124 replacement.

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:10 pm

    Austin wrote:Inside Putin's private jet and how it compares to what Trump gets in Air Force One
    Western russophobe propaganda never takes a rest, never lose an opportunity to lie: Putin's "private jet". Like if Putin is a billionaire who can buy a four-engined widebody because, as we all know, he is corrupt and the richest man in Europe...
    I don't know with which Il-96 of the presidential fleet he flew to Finland with, but if it is the first one it was built and used by Yeltsin.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:22 pm

    Western BS claims he is the richest man in the solar system. Or even the milkyway.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:41 pm

    The second experimental plane MS-21-300 flew to continue testing in Zhukovsky

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3277975.html

    RusAviaGuy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  RusAviaGuy on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:29 pm

    It is a bit funny to read about the "superior" Boeing 777F and about the "outdated" Il-96. Time to look at some facts:

    1. The "modern" Boeing 777 originates from the Boeing 767-X project of the 80s and after several redesigns and updates became an essentially new design launched in 1991, first flight in 1994.

    The Il-96-300 were designed in the 80s and flew in 1988 for the first time. A six year difference here and it was state-of-the-art technology wise (same with the 777).

    2. Boeing 777 have been available with "outdated" Rolls Royce RB.211 engines but in their bigger Trent 800 version. P&W has also been onboard with the PW408x series, which is derived from the PW4000 series. The PS-90A on the Il-96-300 were developed in the 80s and is comparable with the PW2000 and RB.211-535 series.

    3. A deeply modernized Il-96 called the Il-496 is in development now and is expected to fly in 2019, using seriously updated PS-90A3m engines.

    4. The fuselage diameter of the Il-96 is 6.08 meters and the B777 is 6.2 meters. Boeing did plan a 6.1 meter diameter originally but decided to widen a little bit.

    If this is an argument, then Airbus would be dead in the water since their widebodies share a narrow 5.65 meters fuselage beside the A350XWB and A380.

    B777 is an excellent aircraft in general but not the way NATO fans want it to be (i.e. superior compared to Russian designs). One thing is clear and it is that the Il-96 production is low and getting an Il-496T if launched would make more sense than the Il-96-400T (the -400 is about to be replaced by the 496).

    If the PS-90A is "outdated", the same applies to Western engines of similar vintage then (i.e. CFM56, PW2000/4000, RB.211/Trent 700/800 et al). The "modern" engines now are the GEnx and GE9X, Trent XWB and 7000, PurePower PW1xxxG series, LEAP-1 and PD-14 (and the upcoming PD-35).

    The only way of getting "modern" engines today is by ordering a B777-8/9 (GE9X) or an Airbus A350XWB or perhaps the A330neo when we are talking widebodies today. A B777F doesn't count because it has "outdated" engines....

    It doesn't work with this double moral, i.e. "Western aircraft from the 80s is better than Russian aircraft from the 80s, the former is modern and the latter is outdated". Same nonsense as one journalist complaining about the "outdated CF34" on the ARJ21 without mentioning Embraer et al with... CF34. Everyone ordering E-Jet E1 series or flying them have "outdated engines"... Poor airlines.Wink
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Hole on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:35 pm

    Thank you. You saved me a lot of time.

    One more: if a plane with four engines is outdated, this would also be true for all this B747 and A340 flying around.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:52 pm

    RusAviaGuy wrote:If the PS-90A is "outdated", the same applies to Western engines of similar vintage then (i.e. CFM56, PW2000/4000, RB.211/Trent 700/800 et al).The "modern" engines now are the GEnx and GE9X, Trent XWB and 7000, PurePower PW1xxxG series, LEAP-1 and PD-14 (and the upcoming PD-35).

    The only way of getting "modern" engines today is by ordering a B777-8/9 (GE9X) or an Airbus A350XWB or perhaps the A330neo when we are talking widebodies today. A B777F doesn't count because it has "outdated" engines....

    You have no idea what you're talking about. 777F is based on 777-200LR not 777-200/200ER.

    Engine-wise 777F is sporting GE90-110B1 with evolved architecture (re-staged) and higher thrust, compared to initial GE90s. This an engine that entered service in the mid 00s and clearly a modern engine for a freighter in 2018 (modern fan blade design, swept, composite and all that jazz). PS-90A is a late 80s, RB211 equivalent of sorts. Completely obsolete, nobody serious is operating this engine outside Russia.

    Hole wrote:One more: if a plane with four engines is outdated, this would also be true for all this B747 and A340 flying around.

    Well this proves how 4-engines are outdated.  welcome
    A340 stopped production 7 years ago. The 747 is almost exclusively a freighter (and a great one at that), very few are still flying as passenger jets, owing mostly to its cockpit/nose design.


    RusAviaGuy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  RusAviaGuy on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:03 pm

    The PS-90A is as outdated as other engines of similar vintage, i.e. CFM56, RB.211-524 and 535, PW2000/4000 et al.

    The GE90 used in the B777 family is also "outdated" because General Electric did replace it with the GE9X. Same thing can be said about the CF6 family, where the GEnx is the successor.

    There are two heavily modernized versions of the PS-90A available, namely the A2 and A3.

    The problem here is one-sided complaints about this engine being "outdated" and therefore "worse" without mentioning that other engines of similar vintage is as "outdated".

    Proper writing is: "The B777F is generally more efficient than four-engined aircraft types and offer excellent operating economics".

    There is a reason why twins dominate nowadays. It is not "outdated engines" - it is the simple fact that two engines are more economical than four. An A340F would be in a similar position as the Il-96-400T in comparison with a B777F regardless of it being based on the -300 (CFM56) or -500 (Trent 500).

    It is also necessary to point out that twin-engined versions of the Il-96 (Il-96MD and Il-98) has been in development but the "Yeltsin effect" killed them off. Ilyushin planned to phase out the four-engined version in favor of the twin at the time, had everything gone forward.

    All four-engined aircraft has a disadvantage with higher fuel consumption and maintenance costs compared to twins and it is the reason why the latter is the preferred choice.

    Arguing about "outdated" engines make no sense unless we apply the same basic rule to all of them (i.e. engines designed in the 80s/90s are outdated simply because the manufacturers are replacing them with newer, more efficient designs).

    General Electric and Boeing would not replace the GE90 with the GE9X on the 777-8/9 if the former would be such a modern, contemporary engine.... GE launched it with the B777 in 1991 so we aren't exactly talking about "up-to-date" technology here strictly speaking - the engine is 27 years old now counted from official launch when Boeing introduced the B777.

    It is a good engine but calling it "modern" and then bash an engine developed during the same era "outdated" when the "modern" one had its official launch in 1991 is clueless.

    General Electric did update their engine, so did Perm with the PS-90A.

    I am not saying the latter is "modern" either - what I am saying is that engines developed in the 80s/early 90s are "outdated" if we are to use that terminology and the best proof is the simple fact that they are replaced by newer designs and the manufacturers are developing new aircraft or re-engine projects/deep modernizations using them.

    A PS-90A is "outdated" compared to a PD-14, a GE CF6 is "outdated" compared to a GEnx and a GE90 is "outdated" compared to a GE9X and a Trent 700 is "outdated" compared to a Trent 7000. Simple as that.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:05 pm

    RusAviaGuy wrote:The GE90 used in the B777 family is also "outdated" because General Electric did replace it with the GE9X.

    Nope they're just available -at different versions- for different applications. GE9X may be a more recent version for some aircraft, but all currently produced GE engines, of the GE90 and GE9X family are modern engines, and way ahead of the 80s game (e.g. likes of CF6, RB211 and PS-90A/A1). GE90-110B1/-113B/-115B are modern engines, sold globally compared to the outdated, obsolete PS-90A/A1 (and despite the fact that both were inducted/certified at roughly the same time period).

    The former is modern, the latter is an old engine that the manufacturer offers for sale, due to lack of better technologies, orders and funding.





    Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:24 pm

    RusAviaGuy wrote:.... Boeing 777F and about the....Il-96

    There is really nothing to discuss here.

    One is in serial production and readily available while other one can't be purchased no matter how much money you drop because it's barely being made (if et al)
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  kvs on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:12 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    RusAviaGuy wrote:.... Boeing 777F and about the....Il-96

    There is really nothing to discuss here.

    One is in serial production and readily available while other one can't be purchased no matter how much money you drop because it's barely being made (if et al)

    Nothing to discuss according to NATO drones like yourself. NATO is itching for a war of genocide on Russia, so it is an actual and
    serious question whether Russian companies should be allowed to succor the enemy.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Hole on Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:40 pm

    The B747 was produced sode by side with the B777 for nearly two decades.

    The Il-96 wasn´t build in large numbers because western "advisers" told Jelzin that in a market economy you can´t subzidize companies. So no money for russian producers. In the meantime Airbus and Böing received 20+ Billion from Washington and Brussels, respectively.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:43 pm

    Hole wrote:The B747 was produced sode by side with the B777 for nearly two decades.

    The Il-96 wasn´t build in large numbers because western "advisers" told Jelzin that in a market economy you can´t subzidize companies. So no money for russian producers. In the meantime Airbus and Böing received 20+ Billion from Washington and Brussels, respectively.

    Even if they marketed Il-96 (e.g. in ex-USSR or Eastern Countries/Africa) nobody would buy it as the Boeing 767, 777 and A330, 340 were better options.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:21 am

    Actually no Kilo, go back a while and read Austin's post. It was found out Il-96 was very efficient and effective. Hole is correct, Aeroflot was bribed not to purchase them and purchase boeing's instead
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:23 am

    miketheterrible wrote:It was found out Il-96 was very efficient and effective.  Hole is correct, Aeroflot was bribed not to purchase them and purchase boeing's instead

    Il-96 was never going to be efficient on Aeroflot long haul routes vs. 777-200ER or -300ER.
    It just wouldn't work. Even the 200ER back in the day carried more pax, burning less fuel


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:23 am

    because of the tense atmosphere between NATO and Russia, somewhere down the road Russia might even to denied purchase of 777Fs, if this happens what will be Russia's alternative? many here claim Il-96 is old and outdated, so is there actually a plan by Russia to develop their own NEW long range wide body airliner that can also be converted for cargo purposes? Russia can't just sit this one out, there is a high demand for these types of aircrafts today and for many years to come.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:30 am

    Russia did a big mistake by not putting into large serial production IL-96 and Tu-214/204 , Till now they would have got better variants of two.

    It is not just a mistake but treasonous and even now airlines are allowed to buy Boeing or Airbus
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:42 pm

    Austin wrote:Russia did a big mistake by not putting into large serial production IL-96 and Tu-214/204  , Till now they would have got better variants of two.

    It is not just a mistake but treasonous and even now airlines are allowed to buy Boeing or Airbus

    what happened is unfortunate, but is Russia doing something to address this problem?
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:54 pm

    MS-21, Il-496, CR919
    Plus there are now state-owned banks and leasing companies that help russian airlines. Only thing missing are politicans who go aorund the world and threaten smaller countries with wars if they don´t buy russian jets.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:15 pm

    Press tour around the Sukhoi SuperJet-100 production in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. So far 164 aircraft produced

    https://fotografersha.livejournal.com/997075.html
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    Nibiru

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:36 pm

    Hole wrote:MS-21, Il-496, CR919
    Plus there are now state-owned banks and leasing companies that help russian airlines. Only thing missing are politicans who go aorund the world and threaten smaller countries with wars if they don´t buy russian jets.

    Thanks. i was kinda hoping though that Russia pursue its 777f analog by its own, but i guess in difficult times Russia has no other better option than to partner with China. I am not against Russia-China collaboration, but of course the more Russia can do by its own, the better.

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