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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 4:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Arrow wrote:MS-21 on engines and components from the West...

    Pratt & Whitney PW1000G is not having components form the west, it is US engine unlike PD-14 which is Russian one Smile When program started in 2000s there wa sno KRET avionics so Honeywell & ELBIT co was used. And perhaps for western regimes like US/EU or dependent/ occupied territories this will be still used. Unlikely for Russia or other free countries though.

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment,   Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 5:04 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
    There will be a MS-21 fully-Russian version while they are gradually increasing the number of Russian components in SSJ (with the 95R version intended for Iran, which replaces all American components, but still not the European), and it won't take 20 years to produce. Russian can produce all these components locally (as they were for Tu-204 and Il-96), they just need to specifically design such components for these aircraft.[/quote]

    precisely. With number of sold SJ-100 and MS-21 is is much easier to test, make and sell Russian avionics. Not to mention recently was started new line of power plants for aviation in Russia


    @militarov -
    yup in 2009 it was planned. Unlikely though anything will be western otherwise no lane can be produced in 3 years or so. Sanctions only get worse. CR929 will have you think western avionics for Russian needs?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm

    Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Hole on Sun May 13, 2018 5:08 pm

    Russia is a sane country. They want to sell the aircraft to everyone, so the used components that are widely used around the world. Nobody could foresee just how crazy the west (amiland) is.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 13, 2018 5:20 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment,   Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
    There will be a MS-21 fully-Russian version while they are gradually increasing the number of Russian components in SSJ (with the 95R version intended for Iran, which replaces all American components, but still not the European), and it won't take 20 years to produce. Russian can produce all these components locally (as they were for Tu-204 and Il-96), they just need to specifically design such components for these aircraft.

    Will be, shall be... might be... could be... lets wait few years. Atm there is no such thing.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 13, 2018 5:28 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot. Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 13, 2018 5:40 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.

    You tend not to keep the capabilities if there is no money coming from it and if there is no production going on. How many passenger jet air conditioning and air filtration systems have been produced in Russia in last... 20 years? I dont have the figure but...i will go with none or very few. Now suddenly you need to build one to compete with UK company that does it for 45 years and to make it evenly adequate or better, and you expect it in 12 months? Doesnt happen.

    Serbia could produce fighter jet in 1991. Now we cant make tires for them, we buy from Dunlop.

    I dont expect ever to exist something complex as passenger jet being completely built by one country. Even Airbus and Boeing import components from whole world, even if they developed them sometimes they are machined in countries like Yugoslavia (yes we did, Prva Petoletka Trstenik and Soko Mostar). Even indirectly many machines used in those companies are foreign, Yamazaki, Siemens, Krupp etc, etc.

    Or materials... titanium, rubber, volfram...

    So i find whole idea abit absurd.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2018 6:04 pm

    I am hoping with Iranian sanction on Civil Aviation , Russian leadership can convince them to buy Tu-204SM with lic production and at later stage MS-21
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 6:24 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot.


    Rostekh says for SSJ plans 80% Russian

    Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is ahppening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything importan twill no be Russian.


    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
    [/quote]
    No way by 2019.We both know it. By 2021 will be only PD-14 ceritified. But you said 20-30 years. 21 is in 3 Smile
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 13, 2018 7:01 pm

    Austin wrote:I am hoping with Iranian sanction on Civil Aviation , Russian leadership can convince them to buy Tu-204SM with lic production and at later stage MS-21

    Tupolev could be good option for Iran. IF they agree to it, but i think Chinese will try to hop into that market with their solutions... maybe.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Militarov on Sun May 13, 2018 7:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot.


    Rostekh says for SSJ plans 80% Russian

    Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is ahppening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything importan twill no be Russian.


    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
    No way by 2019.We both know it.  By 2021 will be only PD-14 ceritified. But you said 20-30 years. 21 is in 3 Smile [/quote]

    SSJ 80%... plausible. Also take percentage estimates with abit of salt, you dont how it goes, they said Serbian Lazar 3 is 85% "Serbian built"... yet the welded hull is basically it Very Happy

    Yes i know how its called, i am just keeping it understandable.

    I said clearly "completely" and was refering to MC-21, i dont think it will ever reach "completely Russian" tag.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is happening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything important twill no be Russian.

    SSJ 80%... plausible. Also take percentage estimates with abit of salt, you dont how it goes, they said Serbian Lazar 3 is 85% "Serbian built"... yet the welded hull is basically it Very Happy
    I said clearly "completely" and was referring to MC-21, i dont think it will ever reach "completely Russian" tag.


    there's one difference in situation though. Nobody is introducing new levels of sanctions sanctions on Serbia. Russians have no other way then localize all critical systems. Interior can always can be bought form China or other allied countries. however with growing numbers of built civilian planes more likely is domesticate all components. Unlike 2012 new Putin's term will be very much about domestic development. Of course it is my educated guess and well need to live to see it Smile


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.

    You tend not to keep the capabilities if there is no money coming from it and if there is no production going on. How many passenger jet air conditioning and air filtration systems have been produced in Russia in last... 20 years? I dont have the figure but...i will go with none or very few. Now suddenly you need to build one to compete with UK company that does it for 45 years and to make it evenly adequate or better, and you expect it in 12 months? Doesnt happen.

    Serbia could produce fighter jet in 1991. Now we cant make tires for them, we buy from Dunlop.

    I dont expect ever to exist something complex as passenger jet being completely built by one country. Even Airbus and Boeing import components from whole world, even if they developed them sometimes they are machined in countries like Yugoslavia (yes we did, Prva Petoletka Trstenik and Soko Mostar). Even indirectly many machines used in those companies are foreign, Yamazaki, Siemens, Krupp etc, etc.

    Or materials... titanium, rubber, volfram...

    So i find whole idea abit absurd.

    While you are right in that the big players buys from everywhere, simply put, Russia doesn't have that option. In end, they proven to use majority of their own avionics from Tu-204 that is digital, and it's fly by wire too. Krets ambitions can easily be realized with wanting all or 80% of their own due to how large they are and their budget. The rest can of course be acquired through China. And I believe that is we're Russia is going to from now on - purchasing what they can get much cheaper through China or more cooperation with China on civil jet development.

    I know by initial design they used many Western parts. But in end, it will have to be majority Russian due to current affairs in the world. Russia has no choice tbh.

    Edit: it's a shame about Tu-204's death overall. There was so little push for it and all companies that wanted it all gone bankrupt. Too bad. It's a hard market though, and has had been bad for Bombardier too until bought out by Airbus.....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 14, 2018 2:40 am

    The US sanctions are a god send... otherwise the mature ready made western alternatives are just too easy to choose.

    Now that the US is being a bitch about everything Russian makers can expand their range and offer parts and solutions the west undercut them on for years.

    The added money will make them more competitive and while parts might cost more and/or be lower performance than alternative but now unavailable western components that extra money will be going to Russian companies instead of western companies.

    This is a win win situation as far as I am concerned...

    And it is not just Iran... I am sure there are plenty of potential customers that want sanction proof products that don't turn and bite them in the ass if they make a decision down the line that prissy America gets shitty about.

    Will be interesting to see how much is Russian stuff upgraded for the job and how much the "western" companies want to licence produce in Russia.

    Thales does a lot of business in Russia and it is no accident... thermal sights developed by Thales are cheaper than thermal sights made in France or anywhere else... and they are just as good, so they can either sell them cheaper and sell more, or they can sell them at the same price and make more money... boy... a western company would hate that wouldn't it?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am

    @mike - CR929 AFAIK avionics, engine is made by Russia
    @militarov


    @GarryB - true form economic point of view, nonetheless US elites can sacrifice any economical profit of own companies to fight Russia. Simply because Russia is an existential threat to US (their own words) and money lost are not vital to Us economy. I fully agree with Song Hongbing (Currency Wars) - first build a parallel economy i.e.not dollar based so you give other a chance to escape from uncle scum then fight otherwise you might get almost as hard as Us when $ goes to drain.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 16, 2018 1:00 pm


    Looks like Iran will finally bite the bullet unless there is a fine print somewhere

    Iran to buy 40 Russian SSJ-100 airplanes

    "Iran Airtour" and "Iran Aseman" airlines will each get 20 SSJ 100


    http://avia.pro/news/iran-pokupaet-40-rossiyskih-avialaynerov-ssj-100

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Sat May 19, 2018 12:20 pm

    Superjet. 10 years in the sky! , Unseen Photos

    https://fotografersha.livejournal.com/991125.html
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 20, 2018 3:37 am

    @GarryB - true form economic point of view, nonetheless US elites can sacrifice any economical profit of own companies to fight Russia. Simply because Russia is an existential threat to US (their own words) and money lost are not vital to Us economy.

    That is probably true, though the elites we are talking about are very very rich people who did not become rich by turning down opportunities to make money.

    No, these elites are very careful... they will sacrifice things european companies make and sell to Russia for which the make or own the property rights to economically minor but otherwise critical components on... they lose money not selling those components while someone else misses out on major contracts...

    The sanctions the US has demanded and the west has imposed has hurt Russia but has probably hurt Europes bottom line the most.


    I fully agree with Song Hongbing (Currency Wars) - first build a parallel economy i.e.not dollar based so you give other a chance to escape from uncle scum then fight otherwise you might get almost as hard as Us when $ goes to drain.

    Indeed... something the US never learns... don't break something until you have a replacement at the ready... otherwise you end up with chaos... of course they could not care less about the Libyan people or the Iraqis for that matter... fortunately for Iraq they sorted their shit out.... no thanks to uncle sam.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 21, 2018 4:14 am

    GarryB wrote:
    @GarryB - true form economic point of view, nonetheless US elites can sacrifice any economical profit of own companies to fight Russia. Simply because Russia is an existential threat to US (their own words) and money lost are not vital to Us economy.

    That is probably true, though the elites we are talking about are very very rich people who did not become rich by turning down opportunities to make money.

    They do not make money they print money. they wan power, resources slaves. Russia and Chine (form another reason though) is the problem before total domination of good and democracy. Do you really think Soros, Rockefeller or JP Morgan care about couple of more billions for UKc or Us economy having chance to enslave another country and eliminate their existential threat?




    No, these elites are very careful... they will sacrifice things european companies make and sell to Russia for which the make or own the property rights to economically minor but otherwise critical components on... they lose money not selling those components while someone else misses out on major contracts...

    The sanctions the US has demanded and the west has imposed has hurt Russia but has probably hurt Europes bottom line the most.

    EU GDP is like 20,000 Billions USD / yr . If they loose 20 or 50 billions in trade war with Russia it doesn't matter. Thsi is not vial for economic survival. However if Us wins all Siberia and arctic ir+ educated population is ultimate prize.






    Indeed... something the US never learns... don't break something until you have a replacement at the ready... otherwise you end up with chaos... of course they could not care less about the Libyan people or the Iraqis for that matter... fortunately for Iraq they sorted their shit out.... no thanks to uncle sam.


    despite US lol1 lol1 lol1
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2018 11:12 am

    They do not make money they print money. they wan power, resources slaves.

    More accurately the US as a country prints money... the elites directing the steering of the ship don't and can't... they have to steal their money from the American people... you know... cheap foreign labour, not paying their fair share of local or foreign taxes... plain old corruption... you know the stuff.

    Just look at Google... you buy a share but do you read the fine print?

    They don't pay dividends on shares and they value each share at 0.0001 dollar US... so the only value you can get in the US stock exchange is to try to sell your worthless share to some idiot who does not realise it has no value... you know... the basis of a pyramid scheme... keep selling and don't be the last one holding the potato or you get burned.

    Do you really think Soros, Rockefeller or JP Morgan

    I try not to think of them at all...

    If they loose 20 or 50 billions in trade war with Russia it doesn't matter. Thsi is not vial for economic survival. However if Us wins all Siberia and arctic ir+ educated population is ultimate prize.

    They way they treat Russian people why would they ever think about winning anything in that region except a guerilla war?


    Austin

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu May 24, 2018 6:17 am

    Shrunk Superjet to have more commonality with MC-21

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/shrunk-superjet-to-have-more-commonality-with-mc-21-448757/


    Sukhoi assessing engine options for 'Russified' Superjet

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/sukhoi-assessing-engine-options-for-russified-supe-448567/


    S7 expects initial Superjet 75 design proposal by year-end

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/s7-expects-initial-superjet-75-design-proposal-by-ye-448121/

    Russia's S7 confirms interest in up to 75 shrink Superjets

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/russias-s7-confirms-interest-in-up-to-75-shrink-sup-448059/
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu May 24, 2018 8:00 am

    If it happens, that is huge for SSJ series jets. Hopefully they can find more interested parties outside. I think initial 40 from Iran is good, but I would imagine many of the smaller nations south of Russia in Caucuses would be interested in the SSJ and MS-21 seeing as they would fit quite well for their needs.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 24, 2018 10:05 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:If it happens, that is huge for SSJ series jets.  Hopefully they can find more interested parties outside.  I think initial 40 from Iran is good, but I would imagine many of the smaller nations south of Russia in Caucuses would be interested in the SSJ and MS-21 seeing as they would fit quite well for their needs.

    Something Iran's airlines are gonna buy more than 40 SSJ s, Tronald Dump will make Russian industry work harder Smile
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 24, 2018 10:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They do not make money they print money. they wan power, resources slaves.

    More accurately the US as a country prints money... the elites directing the steering of the ship don't and can't... they have to steal their money from the American people... you know... cheap foreign labour, not paying their fair share of local or foreign taxes... plain old corruption... you know the stuff.

    Just look at Google... you buy a share but do you read the fine print?

    They don't pay dividends on shares and they value each share at 0.0001 dollar US... so the only value you can get in the US stock exchange is to try to sell your worthless share to some idiot who does not realise it has no value... you know... the basis of a pyramid scheme... keep selling and don't be the last one holding the potato or you get burned.

    oh very true but in my opinion this is just technicality of schema implementation. Wealth transfer form poor to rich an powerful. So called globalism is nothing new. Just old plain master and slave game.







    If they loose 20 or 50 billions in trade war with Russia it doesn't matter. Thsi is not vial for economic survival. However if Us wins all Siberia and arctic ir+ educated population is ultimate prize.

    They way they treat Russian people why would they ever think about winning anything in that region except a guerilla war?

    [/quote]


    They still pump oil in Iraq/Libya right?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 24, 2018 10:45 pm


    New civilian helicopter VRT500

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/107464/

    https://fotografersha.livejournal.com/992385.html








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