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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

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    Austin

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    Post  Austin on Sat May 12, 2018 8:24 am

    Today the first flight of the second pilot aircraft MC-21-300 was held at the airfield of the Irkutsk Aviation plant.

    The duration of the flight was 1 hour 7 minutes, it was at an altitude of up to 3000 meters at a speed of 400 km/h.

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 Dc-c_78X4AA7m4d
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 Dc-c_9wXcAEfFCB
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 Dc-c_-ZW0AAV9G4

    https://twitter.com/UAC_Russia/status/995186671657406465
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    Post  Hole on Sat May 12, 2018 11:35 am

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 22951210
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 22951610
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2 - Page 32 22951710

    Should fly directly to Iran.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat May 12, 2018 11:43 am

    GarryB wrote:

    If our French Nazi friend..

    ?Emperor Micron?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun May 13, 2018 9:51 am

    I thought Jean-Bertrand Aristide was the leader of Haiti... another French success story... heaven on earth I hear... anyway... French expert on why Frances is perfect Whites are all that matter and it is the job of the rich white west to control the darkies and other minor variants of the human race...

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1675p325-russia-s-enemy-countries

    And regarding FP being wrong about Trump... it is amazing how some people can exceed your expectations and do things dumber than you could ever imagine... Mr Trump and Mr Suckarse Milli Vanili, please accept dumb fuck of the year award... 2018 and 2008 respectively... of course 2018 isn't over yet so I am risking he does not do something dumber between now and next year... I don't think he has too much competition in this category but the current person in power in Kiev could prove me wrong and they get a joint award... Twisted Evil

    And back on topic... hooray for MS-21...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 10:58 am

    GarryB wrote:Whites are all that matter and it is the job of the rich white west to control the darkies and other minor variants of the human race...

    if banker's are white and non bankers not then he's right actually Razz


    And back on topic... hooray for MS-21...

    again - this is next sign of Putin's weakness! lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  Arrow on Sun May 13, 2018 11:49 am

    MS-21 on engines and components from the West...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 13, 2018 12:17 pm

    Arrow wrote:MS-21 on engines...

    MS-21 is on engines? I always thought engines are on MS-21....
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 1:28 pm

    Arrow wrote:MS-21 on engines and components from the West...

    Pratt & Whitney PW1000G is not having components form the west, it is US engine unlike PD-14 which is Russian one Smile When program started in 2000s there wa sno KRET avionics so Honeywell & ELBIT co was used. And perhaps for western regimes like US/EU or dependent/ occupied territories this will be still used. Unlikely for Russia or other free countries though.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 3:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Arrow wrote:MS-21 on engines and components from the West...

    Pratt & Whitney PW1000G is not having components form the west, it is US engine unlike PD-14 which is Russian one Smile When program started in 2000s there wa sno KRET avionics so Honeywell & ELBIT co was used. And perhaps for western regimes like US/EU or dependent/ occupied territories this will be still used. Unlikely for Russia or other free countries though.

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment, Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
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    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun May 13, 2018 4:20 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment,   Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
    There will be a MS-21 fully-Russian version while they are gradually increasing the number of Russian components in SSJ (with the 95R version intended for Iran, which replaces all American components, but still not the European), and it won't take 20 years to produce. Russian can produce all these components locally (as they were for Tu-204 and Il-96), they just need to specifically design such components for these aircraft.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 4:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Arrow wrote:MS-21 on engines and components from the West...

    Pratt & Whitney PW1000G is not having components form the west, it is US engine unlike PD-14 which is Russian one Smile When program started in 2000s there wa sno KRET avionics so Honeywell & ELBIT co was used. And perhaps for western regimes like US/EU or dependent/ occupied territories this will be still used. Unlikely for Russia or other free countries though.

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment,   Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 5:04 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
    There will be a MS-21 fully-Russian version while they are gradually increasing the number of Russian components in SSJ (with the 95R version intended for Iran, which replaces all American components, but still not the European), and it won't take 20 years to produce. Russian can produce all these components locally (as they were for Tu-204 and Il-96), they just need to specifically design such components for these aircraft.[/quote]

    precisely. With number of sold SJ-100 and MS-21 is is much easier to test, make and sell Russian avionics. Not to mention recently was started new line of power plants for aviation in Russia


    @militarov -
    yup in 2009 it was planned. Unlikely though anything will be western otherwise no lane can be produced in 3 years or so. Sanctions only get worse. CR929 will have you think western avionics for Russian needs?
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 5:06 pm

    Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.
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    Post  Hole on Sun May 13, 2018 5:08 pm

    Russia is a sane country. They want to sell the aircraft to everyone, so the used components that are widely used around the world. Nobody could foresee just how crazy the west (amiland) is.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 5:20 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    There are like dozens of systems on it completely bought on the West. DC generators, Fly by Wire, almost complete digital avionics suite, EFB, APU, firefighting equipment, its batteries...air filtration equipment,   Hell even the seats...

    Unless they forcejumped 20 years into future they didnt get all that replaced by domestic production, there are simply no companies that produce many of these in Russia at all at this point.
    There will be a MS-21 fully-Russian version while they are gradually increasing the number of Russian components in SSJ (with the 95R version intended for Iran, which replaces all American components, but still not the European), and it won't take 20 years to produce. Russian can produce all these components locally (as they were for Tu-204 and Il-96), they just need to specifically design such components for these aircraft.

    Will be, shall be... might be... could be... lets wait few years. Atm there is no such thing.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 5:28 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot. Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 5:40 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.

    You tend not to keep the capabilities if there is no money coming from it and if there is no production going on. How many passenger jet air conditioning and air filtration systems have been produced in Russia in last... 20 years? I dont have the figure but...i will go with none or very few. Now suddenly you need to build one to compete with UK company that does it for 45 years and to make it evenly adequate or better, and you expect it in 12 months? Doesnt happen.

    Serbia could produce fighter jet in 1991. Now we cant make tires for them, we buy from Dunlop.

    I dont expect ever to exist something complex as passenger jet being completely built by one country. Even Airbus and Boeing import components from whole world, even if they developed them sometimes they are machined in countries like Yugoslavia (yes we did, Prva Petoletka Trstenik and Soko Mostar). Even indirectly many machines used in those companies are foreign, Yamazaki, Siemens, Krupp etc, etc.

    Or materials... titanium, rubber, volfram...

    So i find whole idea abit absurd.
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    Post  Austin on Sun May 13, 2018 6:04 pm

    I am hoping with Iranian sanction on Civil Aviation , Russian leadership can convince them to buy Tu-204SM with lic production and at later stage MS-21
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 6:24 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot.


    Rostekh says for SSJ plans 80% Russian

    Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is ahppening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything importan twill no be Russian.


    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
    [/quote]
    No way by 2019.We both know it. By 2021 will be only PD-14 ceritified. But you said 20-30 years. 21 is in 3 Smile
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 7:01 pm

    Austin wrote:I am hoping with Iranian sanction on Civil Aviation , Russian leadership can convince them to buy Tu-204SM with lic production and at later stage MS-21

    Tupolev could be good option for Iran. IF they agree to it, but i think Chinese will try to hop into that market with their solutions... maybe.
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    Post  Guest on Sun May 13, 2018 7:05 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Really? Krets been making digital avionics for a while now, even replacing foreign ones on SSJ.

    Lets see the components installed in those. Half are Siemens, Elbit, Goodrich and whonot.


    Rostekh says for SSJ plans 80% Russian

    Aviapribor and Avionika on paper too produces such systems, yet... whoala... 70% of components are Western, Rockwell Collins, Goodrich... slapping Sdelano v Rus on assembled item is not "completely Russian".

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is ahppening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything importan twill no be Russian.


    If you say it is, ok, be it your way, in 2019. we will have completely Russian MC-21, no foreign components. There, no man, no problem.
    No way by 2019.We both know it.  By 2021 will be only PD-14 ceritified. But you said 20-30 years. 21 is in 3 Smile [/quote]

    SSJ 80%... plausible. Also take percentage estimates with abit of salt, you dont how it goes, they said Serbian Lazar 3 is 85% "Serbian built"... yet the welded hull is basically it Very Happy

    Yes i know how its called, i am just keeping it understandable.

    I said clearly "completely" and was refering to MC-21, i dont think it will ever reach "completely Russian" tag.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 13, 2018 8:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    technically you call it integrated Smile but if you look at it from bookkeeper perspective with simple extrapolation you're right. If you look what is happening now in Russia + sanctions very unlikely anything important twill no be Russian.

    SSJ 80%... plausible. Also take percentage estimates with abit of salt, you dont how it goes, they said Serbian Lazar 3 is 85% "Serbian built"... yet the welded hull is basically it Very Happy
    I said clearly "completely" and was referring to MC-21, i dont think it will ever reach "completely Russian" tag.


    there's one difference in situation though. Nobody is introducing new levels of sanctions sanctions on Serbia. Russians have no other way then localize all critical systems. Interior can always can be bought form China or other allied countries. however with growing numbers of built civilian planes more likely is domesticate all components. Unlike 2012 new Putin's term will be very much about domestic development. Of course it is my educated guess and well need to live to see it Smile


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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Tu-204 had all Russian components and it had digital avionics. So I don't get the hoopla really. Russia has had the capabilities for years.

    You tend not to keep the capabilities if there is no money coming from it and if there is no production going on. How many passenger jet air conditioning and air filtration systems have been produced in Russia in last... 20 years? I dont have the figure but...i will go with none or very few. Now suddenly you need to build one to compete with UK company that does it for 45 years and to make it evenly adequate or better, and you expect it in 12 months? Doesnt happen.

    Serbia could produce fighter jet in 1991. Now we cant make tires for them, we buy from Dunlop.

    I dont expect ever to exist something complex as passenger jet being completely built by one country. Even Airbus and Boeing import components from whole world, even if they developed them sometimes they are machined in countries like Yugoslavia (yes we did, Prva Petoletka Trstenik and Soko Mostar). Even indirectly many machines used in those companies are foreign, Yamazaki, Siemens, Krupp etc, etc.

    Or materials... titanium, rubber, volfram...

    So i find whole idea abit absurd.

    While you are right in that the big players buys from everywhere, simply put, Russia doesn't have that option. In end, they proven to use majority of their own avionics from Tu-204 that is digital, and it's fly by wire too. Krets ambitions can easily be realized with wanting all or 80% of their own due to how large they are and their budget. The rest can of course be acquired through China. And I believe that is we're Russia is going to from now on - purchasing what they can get much cheaper through China or more cooperation with China on civil jet development.

    I know by initial design they used many Western parts. But in end, it will have to be majority Russian due to current affairs in the world. Russia has no choice tbh.

    Edit: it's a shame about Tu-204's death overall. There was so little push for it and all companies that wanted it all gone bankrupt. Too bad. It's a hard market though, and has had been bad for Bombardier too until bought out by Airbus.....
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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 14, 2018 2:40 am

    The US sanctions are a god send... otherwise the mature ready made western alternatives are just too easy to choose.

    Now that the US is being a bitch about everything Russian makers can expand their range and offer parts and solutions the west undercut them on for years.

    The added money will make them more competitive and while parts might cost more and/or be lower performance than alternative but now unavailable western components that extra money will be going to Russian companies instead of western companies.

    This is a win win situation as far as I am concerned...

    And it is not just Iran... I am sure there are plenty of potential customers that want sanction proof products that don't turn and bite them in the ass if they make a decision down the line that prissy America gets shitty about.

    Will be interesting to see how much is Russian stuff upgraded for the job and how much the "western" companies want to licence produce in Russia.

    Thales does a lot of business in Russia and it is no accident... thermal sights developed by Thales are cheaper than thermal sights made in France or anywhere else... and they are just as good, so they can either sell them cheaper and sell more, or they can sell them at the same price and make more money... boy... a western company would hate that wouldn't it?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 am

    @mike - CR929 AFAIK avionics, engine is made by Russia
    @militarov


    @GarryB - true form economic point of view, nonetheless US elites can sacrifice any economical profit of own companies to fight Russia. Simply because Russia is an existential threat to US (their own words) and money lost are not vital to Us economy. I fully agree with Song Hongbing (Currency Wars) - first build a parallel economy i.e.not dollar based so you give other a chance to escape from uncle scum then fight otherwise you might get almost as hard as Us when $ goes to drain.

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