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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:54 am

    How much of a disadvantage is the PD-14's lower thrust compared to western engines?
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:55 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:As early as now various western media is reassuring itself that the MS-21 is so much worse than its western counterparts simply because it flew 1 hour in its first flight while western planes fly 3-4 hours...

    Designers: We built first large passanger aircraft with composite wings in history, do we take it easy on first flight?

    Journalists: FUCK NO, MUST FLY FOR TEN HOURS AT TOP SPEED BECAUSE FUCK LOGIC AND SAFETY!!!!!



    Usual BS, they are seriously scraping bottom of the barrel, this story was lame as fuck....
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:37 am

    Ladys and gentlemen the Russia hate has begun. For example
    Random American smartass wrote:Russia AND China BOTH have had limited experience doing things the 'Capitalist's' way, they have not yet learned that the lowest price is NOT always the best value. Is there ANY price you can put on your life? I'd climb on a CSeries in a heartbeat without hesitation, before any Russian A/C rushed to market.

    Some dipshit wrote:The plane is ugly. Airlines don't want a ugly plane.
    On a side note, why do we need this? We will have the A320neo family, Boeing has the 737max, and Embraer is reworking their E-jet family. Why should we need this?

    retard wrote:okay no offense to russian people but i honestly dont like russian made aircraft idk they just look a little cheap or dodgy compared to boeing airbus bombardier and embraer sorry but in my opinion this aircraft doesnt have the looks and looks untrustworthy

    this is from an aviation forum.

    The tiers of hatred of Russian aircraft:

    Appeal to underperformance:Look at the outdated Russian junk! It performs so much worse than western technological marvels.

    Once disproven,

    Claims of unreliability: Look at these dumb Russian planes always falling out of the sky! I won't risk my life on a Russian plane

    Once disproven,

    Gas Guzzling claim: No sane airline would waste fuel on Russian shit! We're in the 21st century!

    Once disproven,

    No domestic buyers claim: Look! Not even Russian airlines want Russian junk!

    Once disproven,

    No private airline buyers claim: Haha Only putin will fly on Russian crap that nobody wants! So much for Russian pride!

    Once disproven,

    No international buyers claim: No one outside of Russia wants Russian crap. Russia doesn't produce anything!

    Once disproven,

    No international buyers "that matter" claim: Haha the free world will always choose boeing and Airbus. They know what's a quality plane and will avoid anything Russian if they can afford western ubertech!

    Once disproven,

    Doubts upon production ability: Haha Russian factories are too underdeveloped/small/stupid to produce enough aircraft that Airbus can make in a week!

    Once disproven,

    Doubts upon maintenance network: Russia is too poor to provide spare parts supply without delay and affordably therefore Russian planes are always the worst option!

    Once disproven,

    Claims to being unproven: I'll play it safe and ride on a 20 YO 737 rather than fall out of the sky on Russian junk!

    Once disproven,

    Plain old ad hominem attacks and lies: Russian aircraft are junk!! Russia copies airbus! Look how ugly and unreliable russian aircraft "look"






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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:51 am

    How angry and upset they all seem at competition... but then western democracies have never understood fair competition... just look at its history.

    I live in New Zealand so the only Bananas I could buy in the shops here were from countries friendly to the British commonwealth. Only recently have I seen Bananas in our shops from central and south America...

    The west claims it but it really knows nothing about fair competition...

    And that is their problem.

    The assholes you are quoting are westerners who make up a very small percentage of the worlds population.

    The majority of the worlds population are Chinese and Indian or Indonesian for that matter.

    Let them pretend. It wont matter what Russia makes... western airlines wont touch Soviet or Russian aircraft... never have and wont start now... that is OK because the worlds market is bigger than those pricks and when their competition makes more money because their new Russian planes are more efficient then they can make up some excuses... wont listen to them then either.

    Don't take it so personally... if they want to stick to their propaganda then let them live life with their heads in the sand...


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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:17 pm

    They don't doubt Russia's ability to make them, just their ability to sell them.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-can-russia-make-the-mc-21-a-sales-success-437836/
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:47 pm

    JohninMK wrote:They don't doubt Russia's ability to make them, just their ability to sell them.

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/opinion-can-russia-make-the-mc-21-a-sales-success-437836/

    First it's making them, now it's selling them, what's next, Maintaining them and after that it probly about upgrading them.
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:00 pm

    The amount of trash talking crap I've read about MS-21 on aviation social media is unbelievable. The plane is on to a winner, it's a beauty, the engines are awesome and the whole design is a huge step forward from A321 or Boeing 757 (the latter long discontinued production).

    These people are not aviation fans they are politically brainwashed drama queens

    One sexy ass plane that, with design attributes (e.g. tall landing gear) that can allow for even larger engines to be installed in future (737's problem). Ergo you got proper room for growth as the design can take it.

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:21 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:The amount of trash talking crap I've read about MS-21 on aviation social media is unbelievable. The plane is on to a winner, it's a beauty, the engines are awesome and the whole design is a huge step forward from A321 or Boeing 757 (the latter long discontinued production).

    These people are not aviation fans they are politically brainwashed drama queens

    One sexy ass plane that, with design attributes (e.g. tall landing gear) that can allow for even larger engines to be installed in future (737's problem). Ergo you got proper room for growth as the design can take it.


    The trash talking indicates deep seated insecurity and de facto acknowledgement of the market threat posed by the MS-21.
    Given the obvious characteristics of the MS-21 (including its wider interior) if it was not a serious competitor all these gerbils
    would not be squeaking so much.
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:38 pm

    kvs wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:The amount of trash talking crap I've read about MS-21 on aviation social media is unbelievable. The plane is on to a winner, it's a beauty, the engines are awesome and the whole design is a huge step forward from A321 or Boeing 757 (the latter long discontinued production).

    These people are not aviation fans they are politically brainwashed drama queens

    One sexy ass plane that, with design attributes (e.g. tall landing gear) that can allow for even larger engines to be installed in future (737's problem). Ergo you got proper room for growth as the design can take it.


    The trash talking indicates deep seated insecurity and de facto acknowledgement of the market threat posed by the MS-21.  
    Given the obvious characteristics of the MS-21 (including its wider interior) if it was not a serious competitor all these gerbils
    would not be squeaking so much.

    This:


    means that I will be more comfortable flying on it than the 737 or A320 clones currently all over Europe.
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Project Canada on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:53 pm

    I am concerned, we know NATOstan cruelty is beyond comprehensible, they might pull off something stupid like bribing a uac employee to sabotage an mc-21 model and make it Crash! I am not joking, this is a real possibility. Russia will need to double or triple its security in its aviation facilities.
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:06 pm

    Project Canada wrote:I am concerned, we know NATOstan cruelty is beyond comprehensible, they might pull off something stupid like bribing a uac employee to sabotage an mc-21 model and make it Crash! I am not joking, this is a real possibility. Russia will need to double or triple its security in its aviation facilities.

    They already have plenty of security.

    You think they do not take stuff like this into consideration?

    Besides, those airplanes are built in same place as fighter jets. Security is tight.

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:40 pm

    Piotr Butowski and Antony Angrand : Aircraft development program is MS-21 - the view from the West

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2653756.html

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:48 pm

    On PD-14 Engine


    Compared with the American PD-14 engine is a turbofan engine with a bypass ratio of 8.5 (at 12 PW1400G stated). According to the CEO of the Permian enterprise "Aircraft Engine" Alexander Inozemetsva, which is responsible for the development of the engine, the fan technology with gear "is a very advanced technology", and its indicators are very promising for the engine such dimension. PD-14 parameters were selected based on the task of achieving the lowest operating costs.

    The gas generator consists of eight stages of the compressor and a compression ratio of 17, ramjet combustion chamber and a two-stage turbine. Key technologies PD-14 - use of wide hollow blades of titanium. The same blade used in the six stages of low pressure turbine. Hollow blades can reduce the weight of 500 kg, compared with the conventional blades, and the total engine weight is 3.8 tons. Engine-plant in Ufa (UMPO) has developed a proprietary technology that is patented and allows to produce blades. According to Alexander Inozemetseva, PW1400G engine, fuel consumption will be 1% higher, but due to its weight and its more modest dimensions under the wing of the MS-21, our engine will be 0.5-0.7% better.

    The dimensions of the gas generator are selected based on the idea of developing the engine family. In the future, based on PD-14 the whole gamut of the engine thrust will be developed from 9 to 18 tons. Cold part PD-14 consists of a combustion chamber, a high-pressure three-stage compressor and low pressure turbine with six stages. Nacelle is short and consists of composite materials by 65%. October 30, 2015 the prototype PD-14 began flight tests on a flying laboratory IL-76LL. PD-14 should be installed on the first MS-21-300, which will begin flight tests at the end of June 2018. First modification of MS-21-300 on the seat 163 (a two-class layout) has received the most orders, and by the developed first. Then it will be developed on a shortened version of the 5.5 meter MS-21-200, which will be designed for 132 passengers. Today it is all available versions of the aircraft, which offers "Irkut". The final decision with regard to MS-21-400 modifications in the near future will not be accepted. The "Irkut" working on this marketing department.
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:33 pm


    Italian companies showing interest in SSJ-100 assembly


    http://tass.com/economy/950287
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  kvs on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:40 am

    Austin wrote:On PD-14 Engine


    Compared with the American PD-14 engine is a turbofan engine with a bypass ratio of 8.5 (at 12 PW1400G stated). According to the CEO of the Permian enterprise "Aircraft Engine" Alexander Inozemetsva, which is responsible for the development of the engine, the fan technology with gear "is a very advanced technology", and its indicators are very promising for the engine such dimension. PD-14 parameters were selected based on the task of achieving the lowest operating costs.

    The gas generator consists of eight stages of the compressor and a compression ratio of 17, ramjet combustion chamber and a two-stage turbine. Key technologies PD-14 - use of wide hollow blades of titanium. The same blade used in the six stages of low pressure turbine. Hollow blades can reduce the weight of 500 kg, compared with the conventional blades, and the total engine weight is 3.8 tons. Engine-plant in Ufa (UMPO) has developed a proprietary technology that is patented and allows to produce blades. According to Alexander Inozemetseva, PW1400G engine, fuel consumption will be 1% higher, but due to its weight and its more modest dimensions under the wing of the MS-21, our engine will be 0.5-0.7% better.

    The dimensions of the gas generator are selected based on the idea of developing the engine family. In the future, based on PD-14 the whole gamut of the engine thrust will be developed from 9 to 18 tons. Cold part PD-14 consists of a combustion chamber, a high-pressure three-stage compressor and low pressure turbine with six stages. Nacelle is short and consists of composite materials by 65%. October 30, 2015 the prototype PD-14 began flight tests on a flying laboratory IL-76LL. PD-14 should be installed on the first MS-21-300, which will begin flight tests at the end of June 2018. First modification of MS-21-300 on the seat 163 (a two-class layout) has received the most orders, and by the developed first. Then it will be developed on a shortened version of the 5.5 meter MS-21-200, which will be designed for 132 passengers. Today it is all available versions of the aircraft, which offers "Irkut". The final decision with regard to MS-21-400 modifications in the near future will not be accepted. The "Irkut" working on this marketing department.

    It is hard to believe that engine specifications are publicly available that would enable comparison of fuel consumption with an accuracy of 1%.
    No private company is obliged to disclose all characteristics at maximal precision about their products. I am quite sure that Pratt and Whitney
    releases a market filtered set of specs round up for performance. Of course, Russian companies could have tested the P&W engines on stands
    and made laboratory measurements. But I have not heard of them doing this.

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:29 am

    kvs can you explain the pros and cons of PD-14 Engine Design Approach versus says the GTF design.

    Even the PD-35 engine design has not chosen a GTF approach but relying on PD-14 like approach

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-gearing-up-for-a-35-ton-engine/


    For one I read PD-14 will have less maintenance but GTF design has more technology advantages on long run ?

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:41 pm

    Press Service of Irkut Corporation: MS-21 is a fundamentally new aircraft - INterview

    https://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2017/06/07/452913.html


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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:03 pm

    Interview with TSAGI on MS-21


    Sergei Lyapunov why the MS-21 have wingtips


    Research and experiments in Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (TsAGI) have become one of the most important stages of creating a promising short and medium aircraft MS-21 . On the work associated with the aerodynamics of the MS-21 , said deputy general director of the Institute, Head of the complex aerodynamics and aircraft flight dynamics Sergei Lyapun

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/news/novye_razrabotki/sergey_lyapunov_pochemu_na_ms_21_net_zakontsovok_kryla/
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  kvs on Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:57 am

    Austin wrote:kvs can you explain the pros and cons of PD-14 Engine Design Approach versus says the GTF design.

    Even the PD-35 engine design has not chosen a GTF approach but relying on PD-14 like approach

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-gearing-up-for-a-35-ton-engine/


    For one I read PD-14 will have less maintenance but GTF design has more technology advantages on long run ?

    The PD-14 does not have gearing which limits the bypass ratio to under 8.5 compared to the 12 for the P&W PW1000G.
    But the fuel penalty is only 2.5% according to one estimate

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-pd-14-revives-russian-hopes-for-commercial-428518/

    The gearing issue is obscure. They talk about reliability but gears add complexity and hence reduce reliability
    and engine life. I see a deliberate choice by the makers of the PD-14 to not dabble with gears for such a
    tiny fuel consumption advantage. The PD-14 use hydrodynamics knowhow to improve efficiency and the use
    hollow titanium fan blades, single-crystal turbine blades with cooling is nothing to be scoffed at.

    I really do not see this long term technology advantage of GTF. We will see if ceramic turbine blades are deployed
    some time in the future in addition to better combustion design through simulation. I think there is enough evidence
    to prove that Russian designers know what they are doing.

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:04 am

    kvs wrote:
    Austin wrote:kvs can you explain the pros and cons of PD-14 Engine Design Approach versus says the GTF design.

    Even the PD-35 engine design has not chosen a GTF approach but relying on PD-14 like approach

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-gearing-up-for-a-35-ton-engine/


    For one I read PD-14 will have less maintenance but GTF design has more technology advantages on long run ?

    The PD-14 does not have gearing which limits the bypass ratio to under 8.5 compared to the 12 for the P&W PW1000G.
    But the fuel penalty is only 2.5% according to one estimate

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-pd-14-revives-russian-hopes-for-commercial-428518/

    The gearing issue is obscure.   They talk about reliability but gears add complexity and hence reduce reliability
    and engine life.   I see a deliberate choice by the makers of the PD-14 to not dabble with gears for such a
    tiny fuel consumption advantage.  The PD-14 use hydrodynamics knowhow to improve efficiency and the use
    hollow titanium fan blades, single-crystal turbine blades with cooling is nothing to be scoffed at.

    I really do not see this long term technology advantage of GTF.   We will see if ceramic turbine blades are deployed
    some time in the future in addition to better combustion design through simulation.    I think there is enough evidence
    to prove that Russian designers know what they are doing.  
    There also seems to be 'interesting' patent issues over GTF with P&W gearing up to sue RR for their forthcoming GTF. (pun intended!). Seems a good plan to stay clear of a potential 'Russians stealing US technology' spat.

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:43 am

    kvs wrote:
    Austin wrote:kvs can you explain the pros and cons of PD-14 Engine Design Approach versus says the GTF design.

    Even the PD-35 engine design has not chosen a GTF approach but relying on PD-14 like approach

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-gearing-up-for-a-35-ton-engine/


    For one I read PD-14 will have less maintenance but GTF design has more technology advantages on long run ?

    The PD-14 does not have gearing which limits the bypass ratio to under 8.5 compared to the 12 for the P&W PW1000G.
    But the fuel penalty is only 2.5% according to one estimate

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-pd-14-revives-russian-hopes-for-commercial-428518/

    The gearing issue is obscure.   They talk about reliability but gears add complexity and hence reduce reliability
    and engine life.   I see a deliberate choice by the makers of the PD-14 to not dabble with gears for such a
    tiny fuel consumption advantage.  The PD-14 use hydrodynamics knowhow to improve efficiency and the use
    hollow titanium fan blades, single-crystal turbine blades with cooling is nothing to be scoffed at.

    I really do not see this long term technology advantage of GTF.   We will see if ceramic turbine blades are deployed
    some time in the future in addition to better combustion design through simulation.    I think there is enough evidence
    to prove that Russian designers know what they are doing.  

    According to Pitor who is reliable here PW1400G offers 1 % Fuel advantage over PD-14 engine but PD-14 still wins over PW engine due to lower weight and consequently better effeciency. http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2653756.html

    Unless that 2.5 % is a long term goal built into engine for GTF type ,then I would say 2.5 % is not something to scoff at , Even 1 % fuel effeciency of Engine over say a period of 25 years of operation would years more money to operators.

    I think PD-14 development may not be static , Already there are talks of using Carbon Fibre blades replacing Hollow Titanium ones which might improve fuel effeciency perhaps others are under works.

    The choice of airliners is go for more complex higher maintenance PW engine but with slightly better effeciency or go for less complex but lower maintenance PD-14 engine but slightly lower fuel effeciency.

    I think in the history of engineering Less Complex Less Moving Parts is better than more complex more moving parts irrespective of the small gains.

    PErhaps that is the reason they are keeping the PD-14 approach to engineering design for PD-35 engine and not opting of GTF .....They were toying with GTF idea for PD-18 engine but thats now off the chart.

    I hope and pray they continue flight testing program of MS-21 without serious issues and on time. This bird is more technology advanced than any thing its competitor will offer for the next 10 years

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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:45 am

    BTW the LEAP Engine shares the same engineering approach as PD-14 ?

    https://www.cfmaeroengines.com/engines/leap/
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:37 pm


    About PD-14: that platform was designed with significant input from the military

    And for military it's​ reliability and durability that takes precedence over fuel consumption

    As long as fuel consumption is not grater than competition they will not be pushing it too hard

    Civilian use is just gravy but given the low weight of final product and potential for improvements I'd say that they might get to have their cake and eat it too if they put enough effort into it
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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:54 pm


    Loads of MS-21 pics, external and internal:

    http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/900141.html


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    Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:52 am

    Austin wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Austin wrote:kvs can you explain the pros and cons of PD-14 Engine Design Approach versus says the GTF design.

    Even the PD-35 engine design has not chosen a GTF approach but relying on PD-14 like approach

    http://www.rusaviainsider.com/uec-gearing-up-for-a-35-ton-engine/


    For one I read PD-14 will have less maintenance but GTF design has more technology advantages on long run ?

    The PD-14 does not have gearing which limits the bypass ratio to under 8.5 compared to the 12 for the P&W PW1000G.
    But the fuel penalty is only 2.5% according to one estimate

    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-pd-14-revives-russian-hopes-for-commercial-428518/

    The gearing issue is obscure.   They talk about reliability but gears add complexity and hence reduce reliability
    and engine life.   I see a deliberate choice by the makers of the PD-14 to not dabble with gears for such a
    tiny fuel consumption advantage.  The PD-14 use hydrodynamics knowhow to improve efficiency and the use
    hollow titanium fan blades, single-crystal turbine blades with cooling is nothing to be scoffed at.

    I really do not see this long term technology advantage of GTF.   We will see if ceramic turbine blades are deployed
    some time in the future in addition to better combustion design through simulation.    I think there is enough evidence
    to prove that Russian designers know what they are doing.  

    According to Pitor who is reliable here PW1400G offers 1 % Fuel advantage over PD-14 engine but PD-14 still wins over PW engine due to lower weight and consequently better effeciency.   http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2653756.html

    Unless that 2.5 % is a long term goal built into engine for GTF type ,then I would say 2.5 % is not something to scoff at , Even 1 % fuel effeciency of Engine over say a period of 25 years of operation would years more money to operators.

    We don't know the validity of this estimate since we have seen elsewhere a 1% figure. I think the
    fundamentally simpler design of the PD-14 will more than offset any marginal fuel use. Engines are bloody expensive and have one last
    longer is the monetary equivalent of hundreds of thousands of liters of gasoline.


    I think PD-14 development may not be static , Already there are talks of using Carbon Fibre blades replacing Hollow Titanium ones which might improve fuel effeciency  perhaps others are under works.

    The choice of airliners is go for more complex higher maintenance PW engine but with slightly better effeciency or go for less complex but lower maintenance PD-14 engine but slightly lower fuel effeciency.

    I think in the history of engineering Less Complex Less Moving Parts is better than more complex more moving parts irrespective of the small gains.

    PErhaps that is the reason they are keeping the PD-14 approach to engineering design for PD-35 engine and not opting of GTF .....They were toying with GTF idea for PD-18 engine but thats now off the chart.

    I hope and pray they continue flight testing program of MS-21 without serious issues and on time.  This bird is more technology advanced than any thing its competitor will offer for the next 10 years

    Regardless of the risks, Russia is back into design and production mode. The toilet years of decline are over and I think for a long time.

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      Current date/time is Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:06 pm