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    Μilitary Questions & Answers

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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:02 am

    Those detonations are warhead explosions... secondary explosions from the contents of the ship would happen a fraction of a second later and be centred away from the missile impact point.

    That is a very large explosion, I am not convinced that is an ATGM... even thermobaric warheads are not super weapons.

    Having said that of course there are several small Russian patrol boats that carry Shturm and Ataka ATGMs for the purpose of hitting small enemy boats... these Soviet missiles are radio command guided and do not drag wires which makes them rather less cumbersome to use from a moving vessel at a moving target.

    Actually looking to the future the Hermes heavy missile... which will likely need to be vehicle mounted and wont be man portable would be a very capable missile in this role as its 30kg warhead would be very potent against light vessels and its accuracy and speed would make it very potent against lightly armed small vessels.

    Of course HERMES is not in service yet let alone cleared for export.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:58 am

    Just looking at the top photos again... that dingy nearby if it is a standard 3-4 metre long dingy would suggest this ship is rather smaller than it appears, which would make the explosion look rather bigger than it actually is... a thermobaric kornet should have quite a fireball on exploding...


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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Effectiveness of modern aviation against a prepared enemy

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:08 am

    1. How effective are modern day air to ground missiles and bombs against an enemy that possesses countermeasures? By countermeasures I mean camouflage kits that mask in IR vavelength as well as passive electronic countermeasures. Is it possible to bring the accuracy of bombing down to Vietnam/ww2 levels with these things?
    2. How effective are BVR missiles against aircraft with good ECM capability?
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    jhelb

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:50 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:1. How effective are modern day air to ground missiles and bombs against an enemy that possesses countermeasures? By countermeasures I mean camouflage kits that mask in IR vavelength as well as passive electronic countermeasures. Is it possible to bring the accuracy of bombing down to Vietnam/ww2 levels with these things?
    2. How effective are BVR missiles against aircraft with good ECM capability?


    You have to be a little more specific. No Air Force anywhere in the world can enter Russian airspace with immunity and carry out strikes. Pantsir S1 will shoot down most of the incoming missiles.

    BVR is frankly oversold. NATO Air Forces wanted to avoid USSR fighter, therefore they came up with this concept which is effective only against legacy aircraft flown by poorly trained pilots.
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    jhelb

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    Can russian aircraft carry western missiles?

    Post  jhelb on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:48 pm

    Artjomh, slightly off topic. What are the challenges designers have to overcome if they have to install a missile/bomb in an aircraft that is from a foreign vendor?

    For example, say Russia exports the Mig 29K or Su 30 to a foreign country and that country chooses to fit the Mig 29K with the Harpoon or the Su 30 with the Brimstone.  How difficult will this task be to integrate the Harpoon or Brimstone on a Mig 29K or  Su 30? Many thanx.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:25 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Artjomh, slightly off topic. What are the challenges designers have to overcome if they have to install a missile/bomb in an aircraft that is from a foreign vendor?

    For example, say Russia exports the Mig 29K or Su 30 to a foreign country and that country chooses to fit the Mig 29K with the Harpoon or the Su 30 with the Brimstone.  How difficult will this task be to integrate the Harpoon or Brimstone on a Mig 29K or  Su 30? Many thanx.


    Lots. Not only wiring and electronics but various issues related to aerodynamics and how the weapon will interact with the aircraft, it may involve quite numbers of wind tunnel testing, to ensure that the weapon can be safely carried and released by the aircraft.

    Plus for guided weapon, this may involve re-programming the avionics to accept the weapon. It seems radar guided weapon is more complex to integrate than infra red one. Saw South African Mirage carrying R-73.. but never saw any carry R-77 or other radar guided weapon.
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    jhelb

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  jhelb on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:51 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Lots. Not only wiring and electronics but various issues related to aerodynamics and how the weapon will interact with the aircraft, it may involve quite numbers of wind tunnel testing, to ensure that the weapon can be safely carried and released by the aircraft.

    Plus for guided weapon, this may involve re-programming the avionics to accept the weapon. It seems radar guided weapon is more complex to integrate than infra red one. Saw South African Mirage carrying R-73.. but never saw any carry R-77 or other radar guided weapon.  

    Thanks Stealthflanker my vote. However, aren't fighters like Su-30 supposed to be open architecture and therefore weapons/sensors from any vendor can be easily installed on them?
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    GarryB

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    Can russian aircraft carry western missiles?

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:32 pm

    It is a bit like modern computers... look at an IBM compatable computer.... as long as you know the operating system and follow the standard in designing the software and hard ware for your computer network that is the aircraft you can pretty much plug and play with modern aircraft and hardware.

    Of course for things like the R-77 AAM you need a wing pylon adaptor so the missile can be attached, though the adapter in this case contains a hydraulic ram that throws the missile downwards on launch away from the launch aircraft which simplifies its use by making it less likely to hit the aircraft as it is launched.

    Software called drivers is written to allow the hardware to work with the system so it tells the computers what sort of information the weapon needs and what sort of things it needs before it is launched.

    For instance with the R-77 again you just need to start up the missile before launch and give it flight coordinates to the target area before launch... it will fly to that location and then turn on its radar to search for the target.

    For an anti radiation missile it might be given the frequency of the target radar and its location.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Division frontage in modern Russian and NATO armies

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:15 am

    During ww1 an attack frontage of an infantry division was about 2km (1km at somme for the British), about 7km during ww2 and 15-25km during the 1980s.

    What is the attack frontage for a modern day mechanized division in US Army? Other NATO armies? Or in Russia? This is an obscure topic, yet fundamental to the conduct of war. Need to know more.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    The ultimate M.A.D. weapon?

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:44 am

    Couple moths ago in vpk-news.ru was K. Sivkov wrote an article about "an asymmetric response" to danger of US/NATO aggression. He mentioned both tsunami torpedoes and triggering super-volcano in Yellowstone.

    OK dreamer. Then after 6 months passed System 6 news popped up... I wonder if Russia is working also on Yellowstone trigger weapon. You might say - oh no this might be extinction level, but dead hand system is not such a class?
    Explosion of super volcano just makes sure nothing is left of former USA. and is used only to make sure Russia is not attacked and millions of Russians killed. And if attacked then nothing is left of the aggressor...

    Do you think such weapon has a chance to be considered?


    1) Sivkov article http://vpk-news.ru/articles/24405

    2) Scientific theory that super-volcano is triggered externally...like eartrhquake http://phys.org/news/2015-11-supervolcanoes-triggered-externally.html
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    kvs

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  kvs on Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:42 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Couple moths ago in vpk-news.ru was K. Sivkov wrote an article about  "an asymmetric response" to danger of US/NATO aggression. He mentioned both tsunami torpedoes and triggering super-volcano in Yellowstone.

    OK dreamer. Then after 6 months passed System 6 news popped up... I wonder if Russia is working also on Yellowstone trigger weapon. You might say - oh no this might be extinction level, but dead hand system is not such a class?
    Explosion of  super volcano just makes sure nothing is left of former USA. and is used only to make sure Russia is not attacked and millions of Russians killed. And if attacked then nothing is left of the aggressor...

    Do you think such weapon has a chance to be considered?


    1) Sivkov article http://vpk-news.ru/articles/24405

    2) Scientific theory that super-volcano is triggered externally...like eartrhquake  http://phys.org/news/2015-11-supervolcanoes-triggered-externally.html

    The problem with all of these sorts of claims is that they fail to appreciate the energy involved. Much like all the claims about weather control.
    No nuclear device approaches the energy of even a moderate earthquake. Now suppose some genius decides that a perturbation is enough to
    set one off so even the small energy of a nuclear bomb is "enough". This genius now needs to model how to apply the perturbation to set off
    an earthquake in the right location and with the right magnitude. The genius needs to give up before starting since there is no model he can
    use. It is possible to formulate a general visco-elastic model but there is insufficient information about the rock distribution and most importantly
    the tension/stress distribution in the fault network. The model wouldn't even be able to properly represent the faults since some sort of
    continuum approximation has to be made to pose the equations in the first place. There is no such thing as an atom by atom numerical
    scheme. This problem is simply intractable.

    Yellowstone will go off when it feels like it. Humans will have no role to play.

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    Ah-64 Hellfire danger close.

    Post  yanni_dl@yahoo.com on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:05 pm

    Why a hellfire shot from a Ah-64 can not aquire the target?
    https://youtu.be/9QF51_a8fbI


    Last edited by yanni_dl@yahoo.com on Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding a link)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:56 am

    It is a forum rule that your first post should be an introduction in the rules and introductions area.

    Please take the time to introduce yourself in a new thread in that section and read the rules.

    Regarding your question... there are two main types of Hellfire missile... one is laser homing and one is MMW radar guided.

    The laser homing model which is the oldest simply looks for a laser spot. It has an optical seeker but no capability to see targets... all it sees is the laser spot which it flys to impact towards... it doesn't recognise target and will fly into anything that has the correctly coded laser beam reflecting off whether it is a tank or a soldiers helmet or block wall of a bunker.

    The MMW radar model needs something with a radar signature like a vehicle or small building to lock on to. It is a very high resolution for a radar and can get a lock on vehicles.

    In answer to your question there are many reasons for a Hellfire to miss, including the laser being blocked or losing the target with the laser designator... whether that is on the Apache or another platform like a small scout helo. For MMW radar the designated target passing out of view behind something or crossing the path of another object with a strong MMW radar return the guidance systems could get confused if they cross paths and it might follow the wrong target when they diverge.

    I seem to remember an Apache helicopter pilot talking about getting a briefing regarding Hellfires before Desert Storm where the company rep claimed it was all fully automatic and there was no need to manually follow the target. After a lot of misses the pilots started keeping an eye on the tracking and getting hits again... the pilot in question said if he ever saw that fat rep again he was going to punch him in the face...


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    jhelb

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    SAM questions

    Post  jhelb on Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:21 am

    Assuming a SAM is fired towards a fighter jet but it misses. Will the missile have enough legs to make a U-turn and come chasing the fighter once again? Thanks.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:40 am

    Most missiles are travelling at very high speed but are generally coasting with the rocket motor generally burning out a few seconds after launch.

    At high speed with such small flight control surfaces the turning rate means making a U turn would burn up almost all of its energy and so it would fall from the sky... equally if the target evaded the missile when the missile was going faster than mach 2 or three then when it turns and is subsonic the low speed airflow means its manouver performance would be pathetic compare with that of a manned aircraft...


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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  jhelb on Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:equally if the target evaded the missile when the missile was going faster than mach 2 or three then when it turns and is subsonic the low speed airflow means its manouver performance would be pathetic compare with that of a manned aircraft...

    Suppose the missile has proximity fuse. How will that change the equation?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:09 am

    Suppose the missile has proximity fuse. How will that change the equation?

    Depends.

    If it is set correctly then it will detonate the warhead within range of doing damage to the target... which is the goal of launching the missile.

    Obviously, if the fuse is set incorrectly the warhead will explode too far from the target is will not cause enough damage to effect the target.

    The west was so fearful of the enemy finding out about the proximity fuses they were using on their anti aircraft artillery that they didn't send any to the Soviet Union during the war. Even with PF ammo their kill rate with such ammo was not amazing.

    A proximity fuse does mean what would otherwise be a miss can be an effective shot.

    A good example would be Igla... designed to shoot down aircraft it has an algorithm that makes the missile aim ahead of the heat source so it hits the body of the target rather than its tail pipe. this makes the warhead more effective in damaging the aircraft target.

    During tests engaging Malyutka ATGMs to test the Iglas against smaller targets like cruise missiles only 5 of the 9 Iglas make kills because they didn't hit a part of the target so they missed... they only had hit and graze fuses so needed to make contact for the warhead to explode.

    The result was an upgrade to the Igla-S which amongst other improvements got a proximity fuse for engaging small targets.


    Unlike what is portrayed in the movies where AAMs chase planes like they are in a dogfight... AAMs and SAMs are coasting and slowing down all the time... in a turning battle with any fighter any missile would lose... the control surfaces on an aircraft are much larger and would allow much tighter and harder turns at the same speed... they also have engines opposing drag and maintaining speed... when a missile turns hard it generates enormous drag and with no engine operating to recover that energy the energy has to come from somewhere... ie speed or altitude or both.

    The very small surfaces on a missile means that it was flying at the same speed as an aircraft it would stall and fall from the sky because it has no wings to generate enough lift to keep it airborne.


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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  jhelb on Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Depends.

    If it is set correctly then it will detonate the warhead within range of doing damage to the target... which is the goal of launching the missile.

    How do they time the fuse? Systems like the Buk for example, are command guided.

    Does the same protocol apply for the S-400? In other words a timer detonates the warhead? Thanks.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:40 am

    How do they time the fuse? Systems like the Buk for example, are command guided.

    Does the same protocol apply for the S-400? In other words a timer detonates the warhead? Thanks.

    They are very unlikely to use a time fuse... much more likely to use active radio fuse or laser fuse that measures the distance to the target and sets off the warhead once the missile is within range.

    It could also use command detonation with the missile and target being tracked but the risk is that the detonation command could be identified and used to defeat the missile.


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    RTN

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    Re: Μilitary Questions & Answers

    Post  RTN on Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:02 pm

    GarryB wrote: but the risk is that the detonation command could be identified and used to defeat the missile.

    Garry, can you shed some light as to how the detonation command is identified and subsequently defeated?
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    GarryB

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    SAM questions

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:37 am

    Garry, can you shed some light as to how the detonation command is identified and subsequently defeated?

    It would depend on the sophistication of the system. Cheap simple US UAVs are known to have unsophisticated datalinks that allow third parties to capture and view the data they collect in real time.

    I would hope for their more sophisticated models they would have encrypted datalinks but such links could still be intercepted and copied.

    To be able to exploit a detonation command serious knowledge of the system itself would be needed, but even information like data about the proximity fuse being used would allow an enemy to keep their planes safe by transmitting a signal to the incoming missile pretending to be a proximity reflection of a target much closer than it actually is leading to a premature detonation of the warhead.

    It is known that the SA-2 would have gotten rather more kills of B-52s in Vietnam if they hadn't used a system that made the B-52 seem closer than it actually was.

    If the datalink is implemented with some sophistication then the enemy would have a lot of trouble interfering.


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    d_taddei2

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    what would you do???? assignment

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:08 am

    Hi a friend who works in the defence industry dug out an old assignment that he was given during his studies and game me a copy to look at, I thought it would be fun to see what people on here would do. Its based on small country and its armed forces how best to use the force and its mainly based around procurement and upgrades to make the best with what you have. The country itself is landlocked, partially mountainous, flat plains, and forest, however my friend has changed parts of the equipment and various parts about the county in order to hide the identity of the country. They currently have one bordering country which is at times hostile towards them and still have a fair sized armed forces with more armoured vehicles the country. The current budget is sitting at around $500m but this also includes procurement. They can produces most of their ammo apart from larger missiles based on aircraft and missiles on there air defence systems (minus Sa-7 and Sa-14 of which they can produce). They also have capabilities to upgrade various systems in the form of welding/engineering, however things such as optics and some electronic components etc would to be imported. The country had a clear out of equipment through the last decade and sold a lot of equipment to help the economy. The economy has now stabilized and has very slow growth rate.
    (PLEASE NOTE THIS HAS BEEN GREATLY SIMPLIFIED AS THE ORIGINAL ASSIGNMENT WAS MORE COMPLEX).

    here is a list of current equipment followed by some equipment in storage.

    ARTILLERY
    2S1 x48
    2S9 x24
    Bm-21-1 x24
    Frog-7 x12
    RPU-14(BM-14) x24
    RPU-14 x2 monuted on T-54 chassis. x12
    D1- 152mm x24
    D-20 152mm x24
    D-30 122mm x48
    M-30 122mm x24
    M-46 130mm x24
    T-12 100mm x24 (anti tank gun but also used as artillery)
    BS-3 100mm x24 (anti tank gun but also used as artillery)
    2S12 Sani X48
    120-PM-43 x48
    2B14 Podnos X48
    2B9 Vasilek X24
    2B9 Vasilek Mounted on MT-LB x12

    Wheeled vehicles
    BRDM-1 x24
    BRDM-1 armed with AT-2 x12
    BRDM-2 x24
    BRDM-2 armed with AT-3 x12
    BRDM-2 armed with AT-4 x12
    BRDM-2 armed with AT-5 x12
    BTR-152 x24
    BTR-152 armed with ZPU-4 x12
    BTR-60 x48
    BTR-80 x48

    Tracked vehicles
    BTR-50 x24
    MT-LB APC x24
    MT-LB ** x48 (** specialist variants such command, engineer etc etc)
    MT-LB armed with ZSU-23-2 x12
    MT-LB armed with AT-6 x12
    PT-76 x24
    T-34-85 x24 (upgraded with additional armour and day and night sight, engine up rated used as infantry support)
    T-55M x48
    T-72A x48
    BMP-3 x24
    ZSU-57-2 x24 (used as ground support with welded roof on turret)
    ZSU-23-4 x24 (used as ground support as well as air defence)

    Anti Air
    Sa-7 x100
    Sa-14 x50
    Sa-8 x12 (upgraded)
    Sa-9 x24
    Sa-13 x24 (upgraded)
    Sa-6 x24 (upgraded)
    Sa-2 x24 (upgraded)
    Sa-3 x24 (upgraded)
    Sa-5 x12 (upgraded)
    Sa-11 M1 x12
    S-60 57mm x48
    M1939 61-K 37mm x48
    ZSU-23-2 x100
    ZPU-1 x50
    ZPU-2 x100
    ZPU-4 x48

    air force
    Mig-21 Bis x24
    Mig-21R x 6
    Mig-29S x6
    Su-22M3 x6
    Su-25 x 12
    Su-24 x8
    Mig-23MLD x12
    Mi-8 x16 (+ undisclosed amount of specialist variants from artillery recce, medivac, SAR etc etc,)
    Mi-8TVK x3
    Mi-24D x12
    Mi-2 x6
    An-2 x6
    An-24 x3
    An-26 x3
    IL-76 x2
    L-39 x18 (capable of ground attack)


    Small arms
    Tokarev
    SKS
    AK-47
    AKM
    RPD
    RPK
    PKM
    SVD
    DShK
    NSV
    SPG-9 x100 + 50 mounted on 4x4 pick up
    RPG-7
    RPG-22
    AT-3 x250+(locally produced and upgraded able to produce this very cheaply)
    AT-4 x50
    AT-5 x50
    various anti personnel and anti tank mines.



    In storage they have the following
    Mig-25RB x6 (recently retired)
    ZiS-2 57mm x48
    D-44 85mm x48
    2B14 Podnos x48
    120-PM-43 x24
    SPG-9 x48
    M1943 160mm x24
    M-240 240mm x12
    M30 122mm x24
    M-46 130mmx24
    T-12 100mm x24
    S-23 180 x 12
    M1942 (ZiS-3 76mm x48
    KS-12 85mm x48
    KS-12 100mm x48
    KS-30 130mm x48
    Sa-4 x12
    2K6 Luna frog-3/5 x12


    Turrets from the following
    T-34-85 x24
    BMP-1 x24
    PT-76 x24
    chassis from the following
    T-34 x24
    T-54 x24
    MT-LB x100

    also have various trucks in storage as well as x48 ZIL-135 trucks.


    and views on this would be great but please bear in mind this is just for fun, we could go really in depth and look at every aspect in detail but that would take far too long, I will post my views at a later date.
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    Isos

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    20 billion $ for your navy !!

    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:55 pm

    You have 20 billion $ and you have to make your navy with russian ships.

    No nuclear ship.

    Assume you are a fictif country hostile to NATO.

    You have 6 naval bases on open ocean and mediterranean sea. Geographic position similar to Egypt .

    Don't think about if you can maintain ships or not, not the question here.

    Old ships like Udaloys, Sovs or Kilo are bought to Russia because they retired them so they offer it to you at low prices. If you bought an Aircraft carrier

    You need escort ships with it. Make reasonnable choices.

    All ships are fully armed. If you chose an other ship which is not in the list, give a reasonnable price.

    All prices are fictif.

    No comments about the utility of doing this or prices, just make your lists.

    Give total price at the end.

    Aircraft carrier (36 mig 29k +5 heli+2 yak 44 max) = 3 000 000 000 $ Diesel propulstion, without aircrafts

    Gorshkov = 500 000 000 $
    Grigorovich= 250 000 000 $

    Udaloy= 300 000 000 $
    Sovromeny = 250 000 000 $

    Steregouchshy= 130 000 000 $
    Buyan-M= 80 000 000 $
    Molnya (16Uran) = 60 000 000 $
    Molnya (4 Moskit)= 60 000 000 $

    Kilo = 150 000 000$
    Improved Kilo= 250 000 000$
    Lada = 350 000 000$
    Akula class (10 years lease) = 1 800 000 000$

    Alexandrit-class minesweeper = 60 000 000$

    Tanker project 23131= 60 000 000 $
    Rubin class (4 Uran)= 30 000 000$

    IL-38 = 85 000 000 $
    Tu-142= 65 000 000 $
    Mig 29k = 40 000 000 $
    Yak 44 = 130 000 000 $
    Ka-27 = 20 000 000 $
    Ka-31 = 30 000 000 $


    Kh-35U = 500 000$
    Mosquit = 800 000$
    Oniks = 1 000 000 $
    Klub = 1 000 000 $
    Shkval = 1 500 000 $
    533 mm torpedo= 700 000 $

    1 pack of 16 Redut missiles = 2 500 000 $
    1 pack of 16 shtill missiles = 1 500 000 $



    avatar
    Mr.Comrade

    Posts : 31
    Points : 45
    Join date : 2015-04-30
    Age : 58
    Location : Havana, Cuba

    May victory parade

    Post  Mr.Comrade on Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:52 pm

    Hello fellow members, I am heading to Russia and would like to view one of the red square parade practice runs. I remember last year ordinary people were allowed to view the parade in the Red Square. Does anyone have information on how I could attend this? It would really highlight my trip and it will be something I will remember for the rest of my life. Thank you in advance.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 822
    Points : 820
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Do you think it's possible to put radar reflectors in a antiship missile?

    Post  Isos on Thu May 12, 2016 7:32 pm

    Do you think it's possible to put radar reflectors in a antiship missile and release them while attaking ? Naval radars can detect like 2000 targets, so puting 500 2mm radar cone reflectors could sature radars. I'm not talking about a cloud of chaffs.


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