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    MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

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    nastle77

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:27 pm

    If the premise is that the MiG-25 could be used against enemy strike aircraft... presumably while other aircraft deal with the air cover the strike aircraft will be operating under then I think it would be fairly valid.
    Yes exactly
    scenario is for example a flight of Turkish F-4 ( configured for strike) escorted by F-16s against VVS Mig-23 and PVO Mig-25
    OR Egyptian F-4s escored by their F-16 intercepted by Libyan Mig-25 and Mig-23
    assuming pilot competency is roughly the same on both sides Smile
    the main problem with the MiG-25 against a fighter is that its AA-6 missiles are designed to intercept difficult targets like high speed large aircraft and not small manouverable slow aircraft like fighters.
    Indeed but if they achieve some surprise due to their speed and using IR versions of the missile plus the fact that the strikers are heavily loaded with weapons maybe those factors may be minimized ?

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    Giulio

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:48 pm

    If you want to know if the Mig-25 can shoot down tactical bombers: yes it can.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:15 pm

    Giulio wrote:If you want to know if the Mig-25 can shoot down tactical bombers: yes it can.
    Thanks for summing it up

    I understand the chances of that diminish depending on the capability of the tactical bomber to evade or Jam the missiles
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:45 pm

    Yes. But if they have not an escort their chances of survival are very low, so they have an escort and an ecm shield. Do not forget that a single ecm aircraft like an EF-111 could jam an area big almost like the Poland (almost 200.000 km2). So very important are irst and ir missiles. The fact is that it is an old point of view. Today there are standoff weapons.
    And don't forget that during Desert Storm (24 years ago ...) an awacs, staying on its territory, could see Iraqi aircrafts since they took off. And we are talking about 24 years ago .............

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:05 pm

    Giulio wrote:Yes. But if they have not an escort their chances of survival are very low, so they have an escort and an ecm shield. Do not forget that a single ecm aircraft like an EF-111 could jam an area big almost like the Poland (almost 200.000 km2). So very important are irst and ir missiles. The fact is that it is an old point of view. Today there are standoff weapons.
    And don't forget that during Desert Storm (24 years ago ...) an awacs, staying on its territory, could see Iraqi aircrafts since they took off. And we are talking about 24 years ago .............

    Good points
    So if I understand correctly you mean chances of survival of tactical bombers or "fighter bombers" are low against mig-25 without ecm and escorts ?
    Didn't the soviets also have version of su-24 a dedicated ECM aircraft ?

    How effective was the Foxbat F thought to be in the AWACs killer role ? I guess it again depends on the escort fighters of the AWACs
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:25 pm

    1) Yes.
    2) Soviets and Russians definitely had their ecm aircrafts, but I do not know the Su-24.
    3) I don't know, but afaik the Foxbat F wasn't an awacs killer, but a "wild weasel".
    To kill an awacs I think is almost impossible, it is far away and heavily defended in the sky and from the ground and it is built exactly in order to see you and destroy. He knows very well that you are coming: its radar has at least 500 Km range and its escort has at least 200 Km range, in this way you have to run very fast for at least 500-600 km in order to arrive at a distance of about 100 km from the awacs: it is almost impossible and, as always, if you go on and on, you only do a favor to the enemy radars and missiles, they become more and more precise and you burn fuel.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:04 pm

    Giulio wrote:1) Yes.
    2) Soviets and Russians definitely had their ecm aircrafts, but I do not know the Su-24.
    3) I don't know, but afaik the Foxbat F wasn't an awacs killer, but a "wild weasel".
    To kill an awacs I think is almost impossible, it is far away and heavily defended in the sky and from the ground and it is built exactly in order to see you and destroy. He knows very well that you are coming: its radar has at least 500 Km range and its escort has at least 200 Km range, in this way you have to run very fast for at least 500-600 km in order to arrive at a distance of about 100 km from the awacs: it is almost impossible and, as always, if you go on and on, you only do a favor to the enemy radars and missiles, they become more and more precise and you burn fuel.

    I was thinking of these but these are not ECM machines I think
    Su-24MR ('Fencer-E')Dedicated tactical reconnaissance variant. First flight 25 July 1980 as T-6MR-26, 13 April 1983 as Su-24MR. Entered service in 1983. Su-24MR retains much of the Su-24M's navigation suite, including the terrain-following radar, but deletes the Orion-A attack radar, the laser/TV system, and the cannon in favor of two panoramic camera installations, 'Aist-M' ('Stork') TV camera, RDS-BO 'Shtik' ('Bayonet') side-looking airborne radar (SLAR), and 'Zima' ('Winter') infrared reconnaissance system. Other sensors are carried in pod form. Manufactured 1983–1993.[1]Su-24MP ('Fencer-F')Dedicated electronic signals intelligence (ELINT) variant, intended to replace the Yak-28PP 'Brewer-E'. First flight 14 March 1980 as T-6MP-25, 7 April 1983 as Su-24MP. The Su-24MP has additional antennas for intelligence-gathering sensors, omitting the laser/TV fairing, but retaining the cannon and provision for up to four R-60 (AA-Cool missiles for self-defense. Only 10 were built.[1]

    What I meant with the "AWACS killer" was that , this version of mig-25 was equipped with
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-58 which has a range of 85nm or so , if the escorts of the AWACs can be knocked off by other fighters than the Mig-25 can possibly deliver the coup de grace by this missile ?
    This will only happen I think if there are only a few fighters to defend this AWACs , and this will not be a USN or USAF AWACs plane but possibly of a client state like Saudi or Japanese AWACs which can only call on a few fighters at a time
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:00 am

    elint is a kind of intelligence recon, you listen and record the foreign electromagnetic emissions. It is not ecm or eccm. Actually generally I think elint comes before of the ecm: first you listen and register, then someone will study a way to disturb them (ecm).
    The Mig-25 BM I think it has not the radar and missiles for the awacs killing: the Mig-25BM has avionics for detect enemy radar stations and guide on it the Kh-58 missiles. The Kh-58 missiles or kh-31 afaik are air to ground missiles, not air-to-air. I never heard of Mig-25 awacs-killer.
    For awacs killing I think needs a long range radar and a long range missile (like the novator?) and also in this way it seems to me very difficult, but I don't know. Maybe that it is better try to jam the awacs, but I don't know.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:05 am

    Giulio wrote:elint is a kind of intelligence recon, you listen and record the foreign electromagnetic emissions. It is not ecm or eccm. Actually generally I think elint comes before of the ecm: first you listen and register, then someone will study a way to disturb them (ecm).
    The Mig-25 BM I think it has not the radar and missiles for the awacs killing: the Mig-25BM has avionics for detect enemy radar stations and guide on it the Kh-58 missiles. The Kh-58 missiles or kh-31 afaik are air to ground missiles, not air-to-air. I never heard of Mig-25 awacs-killer.
    For awacs killing I think needs a long range radar and a long range missile (like the novator?) and also in this way it seems to me very difficult, but I don't know. Maybe that it is better try to jam the awacs, but I don't know.
    You are right probably not
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?69640-Kh-58-and-Kh-31P
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    BlackArrow

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  BlackArrow on Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:30 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    nemrod wrote:The Mig-25 during Desert Storm,  attacked B-52, F-111, and F-15. As US refused to acknowledge any losses aircraft due to iraqi air force it is hard appraise what's really happened. In Tom Cooper website he said that during Desert Storm, there are Mig-25 that attacked F-15 without success.
    Though the USN doesn't admit officially, it is almost certain that one F/A-18 was shot down by a MiG-25PD:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher#Loss_incident

    I don't think the USN completely deny that Speicher may have been shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25PD, or do they?
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    George1

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:53 am

    Documentary on MiG-25 Foxbat



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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 20, 2016 12:15 pm

    BTW would love to see an upgraded MiG-25 with its 11 ton thrust engines swapped for the 16.5 ton thrust engines developed for the MiG-31M...


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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Fri May 20, 2016 2:04 pm

    The Mig-25P-D30-F6 should have had the 15.500 Kg Soloviev. Correct?
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    Berkut

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Berkut on Fri May 20, 2016 11:58 pm

    No, MiG-25 doesnt use D-30F6, MiG-31 does. MiG-25 uses R-15, a completely different engine that has nothing in common with D-30F6.
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Sat May 21, 2016 2:06 am

    Yes, but the Mig-25P D-30-F6 was an enhanced version of the Mig-25 and before the Mig-31, i don't know if this enhanced Mig-25P was ever built and tested.

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    BTW would love to see an upgraded MiG-25 with its 11 ton thrust engines swapped for the 16.5 ton thrust engines developed for the MiG-31M...

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 21, 2016 10:25 am

    No, MiG-25 doesnt use D-30F6, MiG-31 does. MiG-25 uses R-15, a completely different engine that has nothing in common with D-30F6.

    There were plans to fit the new engines intended for the MiG-31 in the late model MiG-25s as a stopgap, but in the end they decided not to spend the money needed to upgrade an aircraft on the verge of being replaced.

    Going from 11 ton engines to 15.5 ton engines would have been very interesting...

    Yes, but the Mig-25P D-30-F6 was an enhanced version of the Mig-25 and before the Mig-31, i don't know if this enhanced Mig-25P was ever built and tested.

    The MiG-25P was the upgrade to reduce the effect of the defection of Belenko to Japan and the compromise of the aircraft to the US.

    At the time Belenko mentioned to the US a new seriously upgraded aircraft being planned to replace the MiG-25, which turned out to be the MiG-31.

    The MiG-25 was upgraded to the MiG-25P model and the missiles were also upgraded to the R-40TD and R-40RD missile models with rather better performance, which enabled the engagement of much faster aircraft like the Valkerie which never entered service and the SR-71, which did.

    There was a plan for an interim MiG-25M with the engines being developed for the new MiG-31 but they never built it.

    what about Algeria will they replace their Mig-25 with Mig-31? or they going to replace them with their Su-30 and Su-35 when they get them(Su-35).

    Hard to say... I suspect if the RVV-BD is made available on the Su-35 they might decide that it is better value to buy Su-35s with big powerful radars, long flight range, and 280km range AAMs and other missile options for ground and sea based targets rather than a more limited type like the Foxbat.

    Of course if you need an interceptor then the MiGs ability to take off and fly at mach 2.4 all the way to the target and back, or up to mach 2.6 for 20 minutes or 2.83 for five minutes can't be beaten by any armed aircraft.

    on another note the Algeria air force i would have thought they would have had their Su-24 fully upgraded, and whats their plans for their Mig-29? replace or upgrade?

    Again it is hard to say. Their relationship with MiG is not that good... after actions in Syria they might want to upgrade their Fencers, or they might go for Su-30s or even some Su-34s.

    I would think an upgrade to a decent SMT level for the MiG would at the same time greatly reduce its operational costs and improve its performance in several areas.

    Of course the MiG-29M would get them the same, but with potential to upgrade to the new MiG-35 standard fairly easily... but I am biased... Smile


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    mig25PD as a tactical fighter

    Post  nastle77 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:53 pm

    I have always wondered if the mig25PD was relevant in the 80s as a tactical fighter
    We all know it wasn't a dogfighter but aircombat is not always top gun either
    As a interceptor it does have a chance against even enemy fighters if they are heavily loaded with ordnance and thus not very maneuverable...this against opponents other than NATO who do not have strategic bombers

    Mig 25 shoot and scoot tactics may score few kills but can be very disruptive as they will cause many more mission kills and free other WP tactical fighters like mig23/29 from interception duties to battlefield air superiority roles
    Any thoughts?
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:20 pm

    AFAIK, the Mig-25 wasn't a "tactical fighter", but an high speed high altitude interceptor for high paying targets (bombers, recon, awacs, cruise missiles). For remaining targets there were Su-15, Mig-23 and Mig-21 (and then Mig-29).

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:10 am

    Giulio wrote:AFAIK, the Mig-25 wasn't a "tactical fighter", but an high speed high altitude interceptor for high paying targets (bombers, recon, awacs, cruise missiles). For remaining targets there were Su-15, Mig-23 and Mig-21 (and then Mig-29).
    That's what I'm saying it can be an interceptor of ordnance laden tactical fighters (acting as bombers) and if they shed their ordnance to avoid missiles then mission kills can be claimed
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:40 pm

    in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  nastle77 on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:36 pm

    Giulio wrote:in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.
    Not sure if mig 25 can intercept cruise missiles
    Can the mig 25 target escorts ? They are likely to be more maneuvers than heavily laden strike planes
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:37 am

    Actually that is what the R-60MKs on the MiG-31s were for.

    The MiG-25 was reportedly capable of high speed at low altitudes and was intended to engage cruise missiles as well as bombers.

    Obviously they would prefer to take down bombers before they released their cruise missile payload as it was obviously more efficient, but the whole reason the MiG-31 got a cannon and R-60MK missile capability was for engaging cruise missiles that were launched before the main AAMs (R-40TDs) could hit the aircraft carrying the missiles.


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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:57 pm

    Was MiG-25 expected to make turning maneuvers while cruising at high speed (above Mach 2)?
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    Giulio

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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  Giulio on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:54 pm

    nastle77 wrote:
    Giulio wrote:in general ordnance laden tactical fighters are escorted. The escort or their ecm-aircrafts could be the Mig-25's target. But the Mig-25 is for high altitude, high speed interceptions, quick jumps at high speed for fast targets, like F-111s, or F-14s, B-58 ... .. The Mig-25 was for high speed stratospheric bombers or cruise missiles.
    Not sure if mig 25 can intercept cruise missiles
    Can the mig 25 target escorts ? They are likely to be more maneuvers than heavily laden strike planes

    Given that I'm not a Mig-25 pilot, AFAIK the Mig-25 could theoretically get any target. High performances interceptors demonstrated they could intercept with good chances of success subsonic and supersonic cruise missiles, from the front and from behind. From behind with some limitations due to the target speed, altitude and intercept angle (if the target is running away, times are critical and gradually the "fire-window" is dramatically reduced also untill few seconds). This is why high speed bombers like B-58 or XB-70 have been abandoned. The B-58 was retired when the Foxbat entered service. In favour of high performances ECM/eccm and stand-off weapons with handle capacity and, today, stealth. The Mig-25 could get targets alone, but with a good air defense system and ground guidance chanches increase. This applies to any fighter, the more reason for high performances aircrafts.
    At low altitude, due to air density, the Mig-25 has speed limitations and more fuel consumption. This for any Mach-2/3 aircraft. The Mig-25 is a stratospheric interceptor designed for very high performance targets (like a B-58 or a XB-70 or U-2 or SR-71). The Foxbat is not designed for dogfighting, for the simple reason that at very high speed, if you want to return back home, you can't do high turn maneuvers (G overage). The drag increase with the square of the speed, this generate heating (at about 280 - 300° Celsius). The heating reduces the fuselage strength. Engines, canopy and fuselage are designed for withstand it, but there are limitations, under computer control, because at Mach-3 everything happens in an instant and it is very easy exceed limits. The aircraft requires cooling design and system. Afaik, in the Mig-25 there is a cooling system with about 290 liters of water + pure ethanol (95% water) and after each supersonic flight this system requires resupply (they tell also you could drink pure ethanol, if the situation is good.....).
    So, at very high speed, tight turning maneuvers not only are useless (at that speed you do 60-80 Km in a minute), but impossible, so high altitude fight is different from lower altitude fight, because the stratosphere is a different environment (no oxygen for engines, no pressure, T=- 60° C). So, the stratospheric fighting is a very high speed, but a 1,5 - 2G fighting. Although, at 3 Mach, the MiG-25 is considered to have greater maneuverability than its targets, but this is few pertinent, because aircrafts like the SR-71 were 1,5G aircrafts and, in some conditions, they have to slow down for maneuvering or dive. The entire process of interception is under computer control via datalink.
    The Mig-25PD-PDS could carry also IR missiles like R-60/aa-8, in number of four, but this primarily wasn't for dogfighting, but for increase shotdown chances of incoming targets, if the R-40 are already gone, gift that the Mig-25 had not a cannon (although those R-60 could work like defense system in some conditions). According with pilots, afaik, the R-60 missiles and their pylons, gave a little drag and a little speed limitation because not in the Mig25 original design (and I don't know why, maybe that the Mig-25 maximum speed could overcome the R-60 speed and could overheating their fuzes ..... but I'm not sure of this).
    So, the Mig-25 not only is wasted in a low altitude dogfight, but the Foxbat is underdog in this because it is not designed for. For this there were Mig-21/23 and 29. Those tactical aircrafts can reach the Mig-25 altitude only in a zoom climb and, then, they have to go down. The Mig-25 was born for high performance bombers like B-58 and XB-70. When those bombers have been abandoned, the Mig-25 remained almost a bit "orphan".
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    Re: MiG-25 'Foxbat' Interceptor

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:54 am

    Was MiG-25 expected to make turning maneuvers while cruising at high speed (above Mach 2)?

    Yes.

    It had very large control surfaces and was reportedly able to manouver quite well at high speed and high altitude. Of course it was g limited to about 4 or 5 gs, but considering the only other aircraft able to fly at similar speed or faster was the SR-71 which would have trouble pulling more than 3 gs it was agile enough.

    It was no dogfighter however and would avoid a turning fight... much like an F-4 Phantom.

    Afaik, in the Mig-25 there is a cooling system with about 290 liters of water + pure ethanol (95% water) and after each supersonic flight this system requires resupply (they tell also you could drink pure ethanol, if the situation is good.....).

    The nickname of the aircraft was "Restaurant" because of the alcohol on board. It was sprayed into the air intakes to cool the front engine turbine blades.

    According with pilots, afaik, the R-60 missiles and their pylons, gave a little drag and a little speed limitation because not in the Mig25 original design (and I don't know why, maybe that the Mig-25 maximum speed could overcome the R-60 speed and could overheating their fuzes ..... but I'm not sure of this).

    When carrying the R-60MK the MiG cannot fly very fast, but it is still the best in terms of speed... so chasing down a threat like a bomber or a cruise missile it is perfectly capable and still one of the best... the only one better now would be the MiG-31 with its cannon and extra missile capacity.

    AFAIK the MiG-25 can fly at 1,500km/h at sea level making it the fastest jet engined powered manned object at that altitude.

    The whole purpose of the large heavy IR guided R-40TD missiles it to allow the aircraft to chase down receding targets... from behind you have the perfect view for an IR seeker, but most IR guided missiles are short range and lack the legs to catch up a target.

    For a head on target the SARH are best in terms of range, while in a tail chase the IR missiles work better.


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