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    Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

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    Project Canada

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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  Project Canada on Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:10 am

    eehnie wrote:It means the basic self propelled mortars on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms will be have very likely this new 2A89 weapon of 152mm instead of the also recent 2A80 weapon of 120mm.

    Why would they need a new 152mm artillery gun for Armata when they already have Koalitsya?
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:19 am

    About how the time puts the things in its place. Interesting to remember:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1606p200-russian-gun-artillery-discussion-thread#171664

    eehnie wrote:I think it would be room for a new weapon of 152mm in the mold of the 2A80 weapon of 120mm, that can be used as mortar perfectly.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1606p200-russian-gun-artillery-discussion-thread#171681

    GarryB wrote:
    would be room for a new weapon of 152mm in the mold of the 2A80 weapon of 120mm, that can be used as mortar perfectly.

    Why? Why develop a brand new calibre? A 240mm mortar can't outrange a 122mm gun, so any 152mm calibre mortar wont outrange existing 240mm mortars and wont come close to current 152mm guns let alone outrange them.

    Why would a 70km range Coalition in 152mm calibre adapt to firing 152mm mortar rounds likely with a range of 12-14km.... especially when existing 120mm gun/mortars can reach 13km range targets already.

    There is no value in introducing a new calibre of Mortar round inferior to already existing calibres (160mm and 240mm).

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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  eehnie on Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:29 am

    Project Canada wrote:
    eehnie wrote:It means the basic self propelled mortars on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms will be have very likely this new 2A89 weapon of 152mm instead of the also recent 2A80 weapon of 120mm.

    Why would they need a new 152mm artillery gun for Armata when they already have Koalitsya?

    The type of weapon is different. It will be likely three different weapons of 152mm that cover the entire spectrum of ranges, firing agility and direct-indirect fire:

    - 2A88 152mm: The purpose is long range direct fire. Mounted on the Armata platform gives as result the 2S35.
    - 2A89 152mm: The purpose is to allow indirect (mortar) fire combined with direct fire. Mounted on the Armata platform will give as result another different self propelled artillery piece.
    - 2A83 152mm: The purpose is agile direct (tank-antitank) fire. Mounted on the Armata platform would give as result a T-14 with weapon of 152mm.

    Being of the same caliber, the three potential weapons have the advantage of being able to share a part of their ammunition.

    In fact this follows also the same scheme that we have in the group of calibers around 125mm:

    - 2A?? 130mm: The purpose is long range direct fire. Mounted on the MAZ-543 platform gives as result the A-222 Bereg.
    - 2A80 120mm: The purpose is to allow indirect (mortar) fire combined with direct fire. Mounted on the BMD-4M platform gives as result the 2S42. Mounted on the BMP-3 platform gives as result the 2S31.
    - 2A82 125mm: The purpose is agile direct fire (tank-antitank) Mounted on the Armata platform gives as result the T-14.

    Note that the 122mm caliber weapons would be also more oriented to the long range direct fire.

    In this case for the range of calibers around 125mm, every caliber needs its own ammunition even being for the same use. The system designed for the 152mm caliber will be far more efficient, significantly more powerful, and will be available for the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:40 am

    They have clearly developed a 152mm calibre gun mortar... not to be confused with the 152mm tank gun, or the 152mm artillery gun.

    The purpose of this weapon will be short range infantry and armour support with heavy HE projectiles.

    Without any actual details on the system we can assume a projectile weight in the range of 40kgs because that is the mortar bomb weight of the 160mm mortar.

    The firing range is unknown but unlikely to be more than 15-20km because this is a low to medium pressure gun/mortar.

    The only serious purpose for this calibre would be to enlarge the fuse area to enable guided rounds to be cheaper.

    The problem will be weight of the round but as all new guns have unmanned turrets ammo handling will be automatic anyway.

    The other problem is the number of rounds that could be carried on any given vehicle.

    AFAIK the 120mm is good enough... the airborne have chosen the 120mm calibre as their standard replacement for the 120mm NONA.

    For the time being I suspect the smaller calibre will be used because smaller rounds are getting the job done and there is no urgent need for a larger weapon... the same situation as with the 152mm tank gun vs the 125mm tank gun.

    Why would they need a new 152mm artillery gun for Armata when they already have Koalitsya?

    To replace the 120mm gun/mortar calibres.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:They have clearly developed a 152mm calibre gun mortar... not to be confused with the 152mm tank gun, or the 152mm artillery gun.

    The purpose of this weapon will be short range infantry and armour support with heavy HE projectiles.

    Without any actual details on the system we can assume a projectile weight in the range of 40kgs because that is the mortar bomb weight of the 160mm mortar.

    The firing range is unknown but unlikely to be more than 15-20km because this is a low to medium pressure gun/mortar.

    The only serious purpose for this calibre would be to enlarge the fuse area to enable guided rounds to be cheaper.

    The problem will be weight of the round but as all new guns have unmanned turrets ammo handling will be automatic anyway.

    The other problem is the number of rounds that could be carried on any given vehicle.

    AFAIK the 120mm is good enough... the airborne have chosen the 120mm calibre as their standard replacement for the 120mm NONA.

    For the time being I suspect the smaller calibre will be used because smaller rounds are getting the job done and there is no urgent need for a larger weapon... the same situation as with the 152mm tank gun vs the 125mm tank gun.

    Why would they need a new 152mm artillery gun for Armata when they already have Koalitsya?

    To replace the 120mm gun/mortar calibres.

    I'm thinking that maybe it's a replacement for the 2S4 Tyulpan?

    A similar sort of specialized weapon.

    With modern guided shells of course, there's less need for the massive 240mm mortar shells of yesteryear. The calibre is now downsized, and that allows for a faster rate of fire and more ammo onboard.

    Also, compared to a standard 120mm mortar shell, a 152mm shell might be able to house a thermobaric mixture significant enough to equal the destructive power of a 240mm HE shell against softer targets.

    Such vehicles will probably be equipped with both HE and thermobaric shells. Gonna be a real urban-warfare and anti-bunker shocker.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:11 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:They have clearly developed a 152mm calibre gun mortar... not to be confused with the 152mm tank gun, or the 152mm artillery gun.

    The purpose of this weapon will be short range infantry and armour support with heavy HE projectiles.

    Without any actual details on the system we can assume a projectile weight in the range of 40kgs because that is the mortar bomb weight of the 160mm mortar.

    The firing range is unknown but unlikely to be more than 15-20km because this is a low to medium pressure gun/mortar.

    The only serious purpose for this calibre would be to enlarge the fuse area to enable guided rounds to be cheaper.

    The problem will be weight of the round but as all new guns have unmanned turrets ammo handling will be automatic anyway.

    The other problem is the number of rounds that could be carried on any given vehicle.

    AFAIK the 120mm is good enough... the airborne have chosen the 120mm calibre as their standard replacement for the 120mm NONA.

    For the time being I suspect the smaller calibre will be used because smaller rounds are getting the job done and there is no urgent need for a larger weapon... the same situation as with the 152mm tank gun vs the 125mm tank gun.

    Why would they need a new 152mm artillery gun for Armata when they already have Koalitsya?

    To replace the 120mm gun/mortar calibres.

    I'm thinking that maybe it's a replacement for the 2S4 Tyulpan?

    A similar sort of specialized weapon.

    With modern guided shells of course, there's less need for the massive 240mm mortar shells of yesteryear. The calibre is now downsized, and that allows for a faster rate of fire and more ammo onboard.

    Also, compared to a standard 120mm mortar shell, a 152mm shell might be able to house a thermobaric mixture significant enough to equal the destructive power of a 240mm HE shell against softer targets.

    Such vehicles will probably be equipped with both HE and thermobaric shells. Gonna be a real urban-warfare and anti-bunker shocker.

    The purpose of the Tyulpan is the destruction of heavily fortified structures so precision will not make up for a lack of explosive power.

    People are geting too carried away what with the western propaganda saying that precision munitions are the best and trump eaverything...You do realise that amunition needs to be replaced on a regular basis and guided amunition is very very expensive and ofcourse very profitable for the american MIC.

    Precision guided munitions are ofcourse very usefull but are not capable of replacing eaverying like the western MIC claims them to be.

    If you need a small target like a amunition/fuel depo or command vehicle destroyed a 152/120mm guided shell is the thing to choose.

    If however you need a heavily fortified biulding destroyed a 203/240mm shell is invaluble.

    Thus it is advisable to keep a few big guns around just incase you need them and they are a great alternative to wasting a valuble cruise missile on a rather unimportant target that may be too heavily fortified for 152mm giuded shells to eliminate.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:08 am

    Actually precision means you need less explosive and less shots at target.

    Being able to directly hit exactly where you what means penetrating heavy structure can be performed with shaped charge warheads instead of just lots of HE and a strong shell case.


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:33 am

    GarryB wrote:Actually precision means you need less explosive and less shots at target.

    Being able to directly hit exactly where you what means penetrating heavy structure can be performed with shaped charge warheads instead of just lots of HE and a strong shell case.

    Well there are always cruise missiles but thoes are rather expensive and guided HEAT shells in the 152mm caliber do not exist and even if they did a giuded 203/240mm would be vastly superior.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:59 am

    Let me put it a different way... if rifle calibre bullets could be guided and guarantee a direct head shot every time do you think it would be better to have them in 14.5 x 114mm calibre or 5.45 x 39mm calibre?

    If both will kill, then you would get lots of benefits from using a much smaller lighter round in a calibre more widely used and deployed...


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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Let me put it a different way... if rifle calibre bullets could be guided and guarantee a direct head shot every time do you think it would be better to have them in 14.5 x 114mm calibre or 5.45 x 39mm calibre?

    If both will kill, then you would get lots of benefits from using a much smaller lighter round in a calibre more widely used and deployed...

    And if an enemy humvee roled up even an unguided 14.5mm would suddenly become very apealing.

    My point is it is there are scenarios where heavy artillery is more usefull and you don't have to waste an Iskander or KH-101.
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    Re: Heavy calibre ammo (Artillliery-IFV-Tank-AA-Naval guns)

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:52 pm

    Having one 14.5mm weapon per unit would be nice but not everyone in the unit will have a 14.5mm weapon each.

    What most of them can have is a 5.45mm weapon... which if it gets head shots with every shot would be far more useful than having one weapon in the unit that can kill accurately from extended distances and take on light armour too.

    And BTW a humvee is not an armoured vehicle... AP 5.45mm will kill the crew.

    It is a very big heavy slow vehicle and some models do have armour... but an RPG-18 and anything later will destroy it easily from any angle... the armoured models are even bigger and heavier than the unarmoured models.

    Larger calibres means guidance is easier, but once you have accurate guidance inside standard rounds a soldier can carry 300 guided rounds in 5.45mm.

    In comparison a 14.5,mm weapon needs a crew of 3-4 to move it around the battlefield... in fact it will probably be mounted on a light vehicle if you want to carry any reasonable amount of ammo with it, so in many cases if enemy armour is expected a 30mm would be more useful... a BTR-82A for instance.

    My point is that if you can make it lighter but accurate enough to get a reliable kill then there are benefits to that.

    I am not suggesting heavy weapons don't have a use... sometimes nothing cracks open a hard point like a near vertical 130kg 240mm mortar round, but the problems of operating them means they are a special weapon for specific roles and not a general purpose widely used weapon.

    Most often it will likely be used in mountains where its steep trajectory make it very useful and very effective... though a bit wasteful against a single person position... of course if they are a sniper then it is worth it.


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