one shot from either of those would demolish most soft-skinned targets, and they can do it much farther than 30mm.
The disadvantage would be the extra weight, enormous reduction in shells, and unneeded redundancy since 80mm rockets exist.
max steel wrote:Nobody Does It Better: Russian Aircraft Cannons Outgun America’s Modern automatic aircraft cannons are a combination of artillery guns and rates of fire usually found on conventional machine guns. Some types of Russian-made canons can fire even faster than that.
One of these wonder weapons is the Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-23 six-barreled 23 mm rotary cannon.
The GSh-6-23 has an extremely high rate of fire, with maximum cyclic rates of 9,000 to 10,000 rounds per minute. Compared to the US M61 Vulcan, the GSh-6-23 fires 50-66 percent more rounds per minute, has a heavier projectile, but lower muzzle velocity. The weapon is also lighter and shorter.
An updated version of the GSh-6-23 is standard equipment on the Sukhoi Su-24 bombers and the MiG-31 all-weather interceptor.
A six-barrel version of the GSh-6-23 can also be mounted on the MiG-27 fighter-bomber, even though the plane already carries a 30mm automatic cannon capable of firing 6,000 rounds per minute making it the fastest such weapon around.
Vulcan better advantage in aiming when you got very short time window in dogfight.
GarryB wrote:Vulcan better advantage in aiming when you got very short time window in dogfight.
Not true.
The Vulcan is not only a heavier gun... it also needs a quite powerful electric motor to fire, which is heavy and takes a second or two to wind up to full speed, so a half second burst will not fire anything like the cyclic rate of the gun.
the Soviet guns on the other hand are gas powered and accelerate much more rapidly to full speed leading to even more rounds on target...
You may spray lots of rounds but not necessarily you get them on target. In AA fight aiming due to high maneuvers is non trivial if your round has poor ballistic trajectory. I wish I had comparison. The discussion would be easier
GarryB wrote:AFAIK the Mi28N is a modified aircraft of the 1980s.
I hope the Mi-28M has all the electronics and sensors and systems upgraded to current, but as I said a more aerodynamic ammo storage option for the main gun would have been nice IMHO.
Even a change in calibre to the twin 23mm cannon of the new Hinds with smaller more compact ammo with lower recoil could have been a better option in my opinion... though information about how the gun is performing in Syria and Iraq would be useful to consider this option.
GarryB wrote:The Russian 30 x 165mm round is huge and rather powerful... but most ground targets are engaged with HE shells.
The 23 x 115mm calibre has rather heavy projectiles for its calibre... the tradeoff is low muzzle velocity... but high muzzle velocity is rarely important when used against soft and medium ground targets.
Against hard targets a 30mm calibre is little use anyway.
The 23mm weapon is already used on new model Hinds and the ammo is as compact as HMG ammo so plenty could be carried.
If you really wanted to you could develop a high velocity APFSDS round for it, but I think that might be good for a IFV mounted HMG in that calibre or an anti material rifle in that calibre it would be not very useful for a helo.
GarryB wrote:Careful... the ZU-23-2 and ZSU-23-4 use a different round.
The ZU-23/ZSU-23-4 shell is a 23 x 152mm round with a long case with lots of propellent and a high muzzle velocity for shooting down aircraft.
It was developed from the 23mm cannon used on the Il-2 Shturmovik of WWII fame.
The 23 x 115mm calibre round uses the same projectile... which has a heavy HE projectile, but its much shorter case means much less propellent and lower muzzle velocity.
The advantage is the short case allows a lot more ammo to be carried and the low muzzle velocity allows a much higher rate of fire without all the problems of higher velocity rounds.
the 23 x 115mm round is used in air to air cannons as used on the MiG-21 and MiG-23... its high rate of fire and heavy projectile makes it very effective and the twin barrel guns that fire the round have a high rate of fire so fast moving targets are easier to hit with what is like a shotgun blast of shells.
It is not a super high velocity laser weapon... more a shotgun... which is very effective against small fast targets.
Note the late model Hinds use a twin barrel chin mounted 23mm gun in 23 x 115mm calibre where rate of fire is high and shell weight is good and recoil low.
AFAIK there is no current APFSDS in 23 x 115mm, but the 14.5 x 114mm round has a similar sized case and with a larger calibre you can push more energy down the barrel.
APFSDS rounds generally don't like muzzle brakes so a shift to 2A72 cannons instead of 2A42s might be required...
Generally I would say a full calibre APHE for targets like light vehicles and HE shells for soft targets would be the best solution... hard targets like IFVs and tanks would be better engaged with unguided rockets with guidance kits or ATGMs.
Russian command guided ATGMs are cheap enough to be used in enormous numbers without breaking the bank...
Thanks for this very informative post. The 23x115mm is a very good round and should be a very good alternative to the 30x165mm in Russia's attack helicopter fleet. It would more than double the on-board capacity. I noticed that helicopters like the Rooivalk and the AH-64 have to allow their autocannons to cool down for 10 minutes between 300 rounds, so could a GSH-6-23 type weapon (with a more sustainable rate of fire) truly remove this limitation?
Garry B wrote:
The Soviets analysed the data they collected from real combat in WWII and realised that while high velocity rounds are very good for anti armour use, it was shell weight and HE power that actually made them effective against soft targets when high velocity rounds would punch easily through but actually do not that much damage.
This led to the adoption of the 23 x 115mm round with low velocity and low recoil that could be fired from cannon at very high rates of fire without the vibration and problems with more powerful rounds.
Even so there were serious problems with the GSh-23-6 gun from the MiG-31, which was intended for short range use against small targets like cruise missiles.
One of the requirements of the twin barrel 23mm cannon on the new model Hinds was that it should be able to fire off the entire magazine of ammo without overheating.
The aircraft cannon of the Soviet union and now Russia are electrically fired so changing their rate of fire should not be too hard.
With a normal rate of 12,000 rpm the GSh-23-6 would need to be fired in short bursts to avoid overheating.... but then the only aircraft that carries it as an internal weapon is the MiG-31 which carries only about 250 rounds of ammo anyway.
the twin barrel 23mm cannon fitted to the new model Hinds should be able to fire off their entire load of ammo without overheating... though they do fire at about 2,500 rpm.
From memory I think the late model Hinds carry about 870 rounds of 23mm cannon shells as standard.
Note the first Model D Hind with the four barrel 12.7mm gatling couldn't fire off its full load of ammo without overheating so they upgraded the gun and increased its weight from about 45kg to about 65kgs, which allowed it to fire continuously without overheating.
Garry B wrote:
Being able to do the same job at less cost and with higher ready rates is not a bad thing.
The Ka-50 was probably better armoured than the Mi-28A but I suspect the Ka-52 is less well armoured than the Mi-28N.
The new model Mi-28NMs will have 360 degree radar... but to be honest they would be rather better protected by an Su-35 or MiG-35 flying top cover than just having their own radar...
The latter is best illustrated by its 5,545m "out-of-ground effect" hover ceiling (the height at which it can hover without the cushion of air caused by rotor downwash). The next best is the US Apache (3,866m), followed by the Russian Mi-28 and Ka-52 (3,600m); the Franco-German Tiger (3,200m) and the Chinese WZ-10 (2,000m). The Rooivalk also has the highest cruise speed, the best rate of climb and the best range/weapons load performance, and shares with the Tiger the best power to weight ratio, all factors critical in operations and combat.