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    Accidents and Disasters Thread

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:06 am

    London: Only Egypt and Russia will be able to respond if there was a terrorist attack on the A321 РИА Новости http://ria.ru/world/20151110/1317650205.html#ixzz3r3uAJjLT

    BTW, apparently london provided data to Russia of their "findings".  

    I cant believe some of you guys.  Some of you guys are worst than the Inquirer or Globe and mail.  Go use your awesome investigative skills on finding Bat Boy and let the Russian and Egyptian investigators actually do their job.  And stop flooding the thread with all the conspiracy theories please, as it just muddles (and also intensifies the idiotic western press and politicians to do more of it) the real investigation news.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:46 am

    From the Communists. A proposal to blacklist all the member of Charlie because of their cartoons about the Sinai crash.

    https://www.rt.com/politics/321298-russian-lawmakers-want-to-blacklist/

    A Communist Party MP has addressed the Russian Foreign Ministry with a request to blacklist all staff of the French magazine Charlie Hebdo, which published cartoons making fun of the A321 airliner crash in Egypt that killed 224 people.

    “This was sacrilege and an immoral act on the part of the people who work for the Charlie Hebdo magazine. Such behavior can only be expected from people who have nothing sacred and who attempt to get dividends from bloodshed,” Vadim Solovyov said in comments with Izvestia daily.

    The lawmaker urged the harshest possible reply to the magazine’s actions and said that including all Charlie Hebdo staff into the Russian sanctions list could be one such step.

    Look at how Charlie responds. Probably this is a perfect definition of Western "democracy".

    However, Charlie Hebdo editor-in-chief Gerard Briard has remained defiant amid the wave of criticism. In an interview with RFI radio the journalist said that the concept of blasphemy did not exist for the magazine, because it is “a secular, democratic and atheistic publication.”

    “We comment on the news, just like all other publications do... There are no caricature characters in these drawings. We are just commenting on the event and showing our own view,” he added.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:57 pm

    Kimppis wrote:
    BKP wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:IMO, those Soviet concerns were legitimate, but it seems they were planning to annex Finland anyway.

    Is there something more to this than an article of faith among Finns? It is oft-stated, but no one I have ever asked has been able to produce a reference to witnessed statements from the leadership of the USSR regarding an intent to annex Finland, planning documents relating to such, or anything else. The Soviet GPW archives had been open to investigation by researchers of history for many years, maybe they still are. So, one could reasonably expect that there would be relevant documents to substantiate this belief.  

    There are probably many things, but one that comes to mind right now is the so-called "Terijoki government" (surprisingly there's no English wiki article), which was a communist puppet regime that was created after the war started and it was supposed to lead communist Finland after the war. The Soviet annexed the Baltic states, so I see no reason why Finland would've been different. Atleast they planned to turn Finland into a communist puppet state and their casus belli was to help "oppressed Finnish workers against the evil government". Also, it seems pretty clear that their military plan was to occupy the whole of Finland and they expected that happen quickly.  

    There were 6 months of negotiations before the Winter War, Stalin & Molotov were pressuring the Finns for a territory exchange; basically to give up some territory near Leningrad in exchange for some territory up in Karelia.
    Finland wasn't interested and prolonged the negotiations without committing to anything; when Stalin & Molotov realized this they decided on war.

    Look it up if you don't believe me.

    Not that I think there was anything wrong with Finland's decision to decline. It was Finnish territory and they were the only ones to get to decide whether to exchange it for something, not the Soviet Union. But I don't believe that annexation or war for the sake of war was the Soviet goal originally; they were quite clear about what they wanted and were willing to fight for it.
    About the puppet government and so on - I think that was more of an opportunistic move that Stalin decided upon as he was waging war with Finland anyway; he must have figured that Finland would be a pushover and that he could take the opportunity to gain a socialist puppet ally or 16th Soviet republic by the end of it all, and not just what he originally came for.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  kvs on Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:29 am

    Ultimately it was the alignment of Finland with Nazi Germany that created all of its problems. The Finns love to forget this point as
    they wallow in their sanctimonious victimhood. In case it is not clear, Nazi Germany had an explicit genocide policy vis a vis Slavs, including
    Russians. So the USSR, composed of mostly Slavs, had a legitimate reason to do everything in its power to counteract the Nazi German
    agenda. If Finland had stayed neutral it would not have experienced the Winter War. The USSR wasn't exactly overflowing with military
    resources to throw around on pointless wars when it was faced with a genocidal threat. In the end the Nazis did succeed in exterminating
    18 million Soviet civilians, and causing the deaths of 9 million soldiers, including 3 million in captivity (e.g. in Auschwitz).

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  BKP on Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:29 am

    ^^Well, I was being a stickler about annexation. Like I said, there's no hard evidence of Soviet planning for it that I've ever seen. You could say well, as a patriot, the thought of foreigners aiding to push a compliant/puppet government into power in my own country is not very much different to me than annexation. And, I can understand that.

    But, anyhow, the events of those years in the first decades of the 20th century came fast, and were complicated and tumultuous. I do feel I have sympathy toward Finland and it's situation in those times. It wanted independence, but was like a pebble contending with rolling boulders. I have caveats as well, to be sure, but it's an endless discussion. Fug it.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  kvs on Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:37 am

    BKP wrote:^Well, I was being a stickler about annexation. Like I said, there's no hard evidence of Soviet planning for it that I've ever seen. You could say well, as a patriot, the thought of foreigners aiding to push a compliant/puppet government into power in my own country is not very much different to me than annexation. And, I can understand that.

    But, anyhow, the events of those years in the first decades of the 20th century came fast, and were complicated and tumultuous. I do feel I have sympathy toward Finland and it's situation in those times. It wanted independence, but was like a pebble contending with rolling boulders. I have caveats as well, to be sure, but it's an endless discussion. Fug it.

    It had full independence after the Revolution of 1917.   It chose to crawl up Hitler's ass and the USSR was not forcing it.   The land concession
    around Leningrad had historical legitimacy.   The Finns claim the whole of the Karelian isthmus (between Lake Ladoga and the Gulf of Finland in the
    Baltic Sea) but this is self-serving BS.   About half of the isthmus, including the lands around Leningrad were part of Novgorod.  


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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  BKP on Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:25 am

    kvs wrote:
    BKP wrote:^Well, I was being a stickler about annexation. Like I said, there's no hard evidence of Soviet planning for it that I've ever seen. You could say well, as a patriot, the thought of foreigners aiding to push a compliant/puppet government into power in my own country is not very much different to me than annexation. And, I can understand that.

    But, anyhow, the events of those years in the first decades of the 20th century came fast, and were complicated and tumultuous. I do feel I have sympathy toward Finland and it's situation in those times. It wanted independence, but was like a pebble contending with rolling boulders. I have caveats as well, to be sure, but it's an endless discussion. Fug it.

    It had full independence after the Revolution of 1917.   It chose to crawl up Hitler's ass and the USSR was not forcing it.   The land concession
    around Leningrad had historical legitimacy.   The Finns claim the whole of the Karelian isthmus (between Lake Ladoga and the Gulf of Finland in the
    Baltic Sea) but this is self-serving BS.   About half of the isthmus, including the lands around Leningrad were part of Novgorod.  


    Yeah, did I mention I had caveats regarding Finland? Partnering up, whole or in part, with NG would be the biggest among those. And, what, you're saying they were claiming the entire green area on that map? Well, that wasn't about to happen, if they were indeed about that.

    But, anyhow, it goes on and on, doesn't it? For every grievance each side has a justification and counter-grievance. Sometimes there's merit and sometimes not, but it starts getting difficult to fully disentangle the further back it goes until it becomes like a Ph.d research project.

    Believe me, I have argued about this stuff with Finns again and again, and many of them are just fanatical about it. At some point I started throwing up my hands and saying "fuck all of this shit." I mean, this is one of the biggest problems with Europeans, to me. They nurse on butthurt like a starving infant on a candy-coated milk tit. And in some cases the ultimate origins of their conflicts disappear back beyond the dimmest mists of recorded history.

    Honestly, if I can find anyone, Finn or otherwise, that will be even halfway reasonable on this stuff, I am more than willing to bury the hatchet and move on at this point.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Kimppis on Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:17 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    BKP wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:IMO, those Soviet concerns were legitimate, but it seems they were planning to annex Finland anyway.

    Is there something more to this than an article of faith among Finns? It is oft-stated, but no one I have ever asked has been able to produce a reference to witnessed statements from the leadership of the USSR regarding an intent to annex Finland, planning documents relating to such, or anything else. The Soviet GPW archives had been open to investigation by researchers of history for many years, maybe they still are. So, one could reasonably expect that there would be relevant documents to substantiate this belief.  

    There are probably many things, but one that comes to mind right now is the so-called "Terijoki government" (surprisingly there's no English wiki article), which was a communist puppet regime that was created after the war started and it was supposed to lead communist Finland after the war. The Soviet annexed the Baltic states, so I see no reason why Finland would've been different. Atleast they planned to turn Finland into a communist puppet state and their casus belli was to help "oppressed Finnish workers against the evil government". Also, it seems pretty clear that their military plan was to occupy the whole of Finland and they expected that happen quickly.  

    There were 6 months of negotiations before the Winter War, Stalin & Molotov were pressuring the Finns for a territory exchange; basically to give up some territory near Leningrad in exchange for some territory up in Karelia.
    Finland wasn't interested and prolonged the negotiations without committing to anything; when Stalin & Molotov realized this they decided on war.

    Look it up if you don't believe me.

    Not that I think there was anything wrong with Finland's decision to decline. It was Finnish territory and they were the only ones to get to decide whether to exchange it for something, not the Soviet Union. But I don't believe that annexation or war for the sake of war was the Soviet goal originally; they were quite clear about what they wanted and were willing to fight for it.
    About the puppet government and so on - I think that was more of an opportunistic move that Stalin decided upon as he was waging war with Finland anyway; he must have figured that Finland would be a pushover and that he could take the opportunity to gain a socialist puppet ally or 16th Soviet republic by the end of it all, and not just what he originally came for.

    I agree. I think they didn't plan to attack back in '39 before the negotiations, as they expected Finland to accept those demands. But it's certain Stalin wanted to 'deal with' Finland, sooner or later, like what happened to the Baltics. And it's true that if you look at a map, those demands actually don't even look that bad, but the major problem was that the Soviets also demanded that all defensive installations should be destroyed near the new border. That would've meant the destruction of the 'Mannerheim line'.

    kvs wrote:Ultimately it was the alignment of Finland with Nazi Germany that created all of its problems. The Finns love to forget this point as
    they wallow in their sanctimonious victimhood. In case it is not clear, Nazi Germany had an explicit genocide policy vis a vis Slavs, including
    Russians. So the USSR, composed of mostly Slavs, had a legitimate reason to do everything in its power to counteract the Nazi German
    agenda. If Finland had stayed neutral it would not have experienced the Winter War. The USSR wasn't exactly overflowing with military
    resources to throw around on pointless wars when it was faced with a genocidal threat. In the end the Nazis did succeed in exterminating
    18 million Soviet civilians, and causing the deaths of 9 million soldiers, including 3 million in captivity (e.g. in Auschwitz).

    Ever heard of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and its spheres of influence? There was no nazi alignment before the Winter War! It happened after the war. And tbh, Finland had no choice. They had to choose between Germany and the USSR. Hitler and Stalin were basically allies between 1939 and 1941! Although I think that the west and russophobes/anti-Soviets like to exaggerate the whole thing a little too much. It's actually understandable why Stalin did it (to have a buffer against Germany and more time to prepare), but it of course benefitted Germany too.

    I do agree that there were certain things that Finland whitewashed, like downplaying the alliance with Germany after the war was lost, downplaying the invasion of Eastern Karelia, and so on, but at the same time, today's Finnish historians and historiography is actually pretty open about those things. The general public is naturally less enlightened.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:39 am

    Cairo Approves Participation of US Specialists in A321 Crash Investigation Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html#ixzz3rA8SKbQ2

    If I was Russian leader, I would tell them they do not have permission to touch the aircraft or go near it, as it isn't their property, under the pretext of their botched operations on Mh-17.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Cairo Approves Participation of US Specialists in A321 Crash Investigation Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html#ixzz3rA8SKbQ2

    If I was Russian leader, I would tell them they do not have permission to touch the aircraft or go near it, as it isn't their property, under the pretext of their botched operations on Mh-17.
    Yeah but the US is clearly desperate to get involved for some reason and pays a lot of bills in Eqypt.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  BKP on Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:[url=http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html]Cairo Approves Participation of US Specialists in A321 Crash Investigation Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html#ixzz3rA8SKbQ2[/url

    If I was Russian leader, I would tell them they do not have permission to touch the aircraft or go near it, as it isn't their property, under the pretext of their botched operations on Mh-17.
    Agree 100 %. Is there some protocol that stipulates US involvement? If not, keep them well away. It's not their business.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Rodinazombie on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:34 pm

    BKP wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:[url=http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html]Cairo Approves Participation of US Specialists in A321 Crash Investigation Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151111/1029902593/a321-crash-investigation-egypt.html#ixzz3rA8SKbQ2[/url

    If I was Russian leader, I would tell them they do not have permission to touch the aircraft or go near it, as it isn't their property, under the pretext of their botched operations on Mh-17.
    Agree 100 %. Is there some protocol that stipulates US involvement? If not, keep them well away. It's not their business.

    Agreed also, the us may well be experts in aircraft investigation but the political climate should exlude them from assisting in the investigation, unless its something that the russians cannot physically do themselves.

    Also,

    Can we move the historical discussion about finland to an appropriate place?



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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Regular on Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:00 am

    US officers, Western media, Kiselev, Sputnik and other idiots should should shut up. It seems they are speculating the fuck out of just to get attention to themselves. FFS, pushing agendas left and right

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:29 am

    Regular wrote:US officers, Western media, Kiselev, Sputnik and other idiots should  should shut up. It seems they are speculating the fuck out of just to get attention to themselves. FFS, pushing agendas left and right
    All those you mention have an agenda, from one extreme, to deceive, to the other, to report the truth. They all want to get their message across and to overwhelm other messages. It seems to me that the more 'complete' a message is close to a tragedy the more likely it is that it may have been prepared before that tragedy and be cleverly designed to obscure or bury other messages. That has been PSYOPS for a very long time.

    In this case, being heavily and from the start promoted by the West is a bomb, whilst the main options being discounted are SAM and structural failure and being buried is an AAM. I have an open mind.

    Those of us on the outside will often never know what actually happened.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:44 am

    Left hand, right hand

    CAIRO (Sputnik) — The Egyptian Ministry of Civil Aviation has not received information on an alleged visit by US experts to the site of the Russian A321 plane crash in the Sinai Peninsula, a ministerial spokesperson said Thursday. "There is such a report in the media, but we have not received any official request and don’t know anything about them. No one was visiting," the spokesperson told RIA Novosti.

    Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry confirmed on Wednesday that US investigators would be allowed to join the investigative team as the engines of the crashed plane had been manufactured by the US-based Pratt & Whitney company.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151112/1029968007/egypt-a321-crash-site-us-experts.html#ixzz3rGyPpGdS

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:59 pm

    The last seven seconds of the flight recorder from the Kogalymavia flight 9268 that crashed in the Sinai Peninsula on October 31 will be decrypted outside of Egypt, the country’s Minister of Civil Aviation Husam Kamal told the local newspaper al-Ahram in an interview.

    On October 31, the Airbus А321, operated by the Russian airline Kogalymavia en route from the Egyptian resort of Sharm El-Sheikh to St. Petersburg, crashed in the Sinai Peninsula, killing all 224 people on board. Currently, an investigation process to find out the causes of the plane crash is taking place.

    "This sound [the last seven seconds of the flight recorder] will be analyzed using special equipment which most countries don't have. So the last seven seconds from the black boxes recording will be sent to one of the countries where the crashed plane was manufactured," the Egyptian Minister said.

    Earlier, a commission investigating the tragic incident reported that the initial analysis of the voice recorder detected noises of an unknown origin. To find out the nature of these unspecified noises a special spectral analysis of the recorded data would have to be done.

    On Tuesday, Vice President of Communications at Airbus Stefan Schaffrath said that the Airbus A321 was fully functional prior to the tragedy, thus rejecting the version of a technical failure as the cause of the accident.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151113/1030050192/russian-airbus-a321-black-box-egypt.html#ixzz3rO6NRIsb

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:26 am

    FSB say traces of explosive have been found on the wreckage and luggage and say it was a bomb. http://lifenews.ru/news/170236

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:50 am

    Khepesh wrote:FSB say traces of explosive have been found on the wreckage and luggage and say it was a bomb. http://lifenews.ru/news/170236

    Yeah, but the question remains, how did MI6 know that it was a terrorist attack before a formal investigation was completed? I think it's official now that MI6 are handlers of ISIS, and it explains why de facto ISIS supporter Anjem Chaundry, hasn't been deported yet. He's been aiding MI6 efforts to radicalize Muslims in the U.K., especially the ones linked the Brixton Mosque.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:17 am


    Egyptian Authorities Detain Two Airport Workers Over Russian A321 Bombing

    http://sputniknews.com/world/20151117/1030245992/airport-arrests-russian-plane-bomb.html

    Egyptian officials have arrested two Sharm el-Sheikh airport workers on suspition of aiding terrorists in planting a bomb on board the Russian plane A321, according to security staff.

    Two employees of the Sharm el-Sheikh airport have been detained by local authorities in connection to the Russian A321 Metrojet crash.

    "Seventeen people are being held, two of them are suspected of helping whoever planted the bomb on the plane at Sharm al-Sheikh airport," a security officer was quoted as saying by Reuters.

    Most of the apprehended were on duty at the airport on the day of the Kogalymavia bombing, a source at the airport told Sputnik. "They are being subjected to constant questioning," the source said, adding that there was no official information on the arrests of those on duty that day.

    Egyptian authorities have not yet confirmed the arrests.

    Earlier, the Russian Security Service (FSB) confirmed that a bomb was the cause of the A321 passenger airliner crash over Egypt's Sinai Peninsula, which killed all 224 people on board. Russia's President Vladimir Putin vowed to find those responsible for this terrorist act and bring them to justice.

    I like the sound of highlighted part... Twisted Evil thumbsup


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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Rodinazombie on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:38 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:FSB say traces of explosive have been found on the wreckage and luggage and say it was a bomb. http://lifenews.ru/news/170236

    Yeah, but the question remains, how did MI6 know that it was a terrorist attack before a formal investigation was completed? I think it's official now that MI6 are handlers of ISIS, and it explains why de facto ISIS supporter Anjem Chaundry, hasn't been deported yet. He's been aiding MI6 efforts to radicalize Muslims in the U.K., especially the ones linked the Brixton Mosque.

    Peskov announced that britain and russia have exchanged information about the crash during the investigation. So the answer to your question may well be there. I dont see wny suspicions from the russian side about how or why britain knew, that will possibly come out in the future.

    Not sure how you jumped to The conclusion that mi6 are now the handlers of isis though, quite a strange jump to make on so little info

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:43 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    I like the sound of highlighted part... Twisted Evil  thumbsup

    The Ancient Egyptians were very good at extracting information, then punishment, in the most terrible ways, copied later by "Vlad the Impaler", and I think their descendants have not forgotten.

    I suspect that an active operation has been ongoing since the day after the bombing, if not later on the same day, to hunt down the terrorists, and all the official talk of let's wait for evidence etc was simply talk to cover what has been happening under the surface.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:47 am

    CAIRO, November 17. /TASS/. The Egyptian Interior Ministry on Tuesday denied media reports of the detention of two employees of Sharm al-Sheikh international airport in connection with the October 31 crash of the Russian passenger jet on the Sinai Peninsula.

    "This information is not true," the ministry said commenting on earlier Reuters report citing Egyptian security officials.

    "Seventeen people are being held, two of them are suspected of helping whoever planted the bomb on the plane at Sharm al-Sheikh airport," Reuters quoted the officials as saying.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Rodinazombie on Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:48 pm



    So its official now then, it was a terrorist attack, and combat missions in syria will be intensified.

    The terrorists are so retarded, the more atrocities they commit, only brings their own deaths and destruction closer, really, whats the point in it?


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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:16 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:

    So its official now then, it was a terrorist attack, and combat missions in syria will be intensified.

    The terrorists are so retarded, the more atrocities they commit, only brings their own deaths and destruction closer, really, whats the point in it?


    I'd be more satisfied if the destabilization was exported to Turkey and the GCC states.

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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:27 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote: Not sure how you jumped to The conclusion that mi6 are now the handlers of isis though, quite a strange jump to make on so little info

    Because MI5/MI6 has a very long history micromanaging far-right extremists...

    MI5's support for Benito Mussolini:

    Recruited by MI5: the name's Mussolini. Benito Mussolini

    Mussolini worked for MI5 agents


    MI6's support for Haroon Ashid Aswat:


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    Re: Accidents and Disasters Thread

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:37 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:37 am