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    Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

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    medo

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:18 pm

    Aster SAMP/T is very capable system, but Aster-15/30 are in class of 9M96 missiles and in the class of Russian Vityaz SAM complex meant to replace older S-300. As I know, block 2 Aster-30 will have ABM capabilities, but not sure if it will be hit to kill type or with classical warhead, but I doubt it will have same ABM capabilities as THAAD or S-300V4 and S-400.

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    THAAD has better parameters

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:43 pm


    Well if French Parliament report speaks Gospel Truth and it seems the Aster SAM is an effective counter against Iskander-M that Russians are deploying , Since Iskander flies in atmosphere it can be intercepted by French Aster System.


    None will ever utter Godspell Truth for no other reason that both terms are refered to completely fallacious and irrational concepts Very Happy

    About the points raised in that document, is sufficent to say that the proposed ABM system in question, to be developed in concert by major European Companies of the sector ,would pertain to a future project which foresee a purposely modified Aster derivative optimized for the task and using a Ground Smarter 1000 radar, all of that with an expected window of operative introduction placed at around half of the next decade.


    And about technical performances of the basis missile selected i think none will ever attempt to question the notion that it represent ,by far, the best Western-made endoatmospheric interceptor and SAM system now available.

    It is not a surprise that ,when Aster-30 managed to intercept for the first time a GQM 163A Coyote supersonic sea-skimming target drone, in all western media (not only European but also American ones) was given to this news a very big echo; even mor strangely taking into account that those same Media have not even only one time used the same PR machine and rooted self-praising tradition to publicize any interception of a similar target drone by part of any other western SAM system....anyone can very easily infer why Wink.





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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:25 am

    Quick question: How does S-400/S-500 stack up against the Pentagon's RIM-161 Standard Missile 3, I know the're's versions of Standard Missile that have insane range of 2500 km, however the history of American SAMS in the last 25 years have been problematic (which may also hold true with the latest Standard Missile series), less than stellar, and less of a "hit" and more of "miss" (from the Patriots SAMS' terrible performance in the first Gulf War, to the countless testing failures of the Ground-based Midcourse System aka GMD), also recently the Pentagon admitted the latest variants of the Standard Missile series blueprints, testing data and other vital secrets have been compromised by hackers (most likely from The Peoples Liberation Army of China). the latest Standard Missile variants get their range with a 4 stage missile which would give any missile insane range, let's discuss...

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:58 am

    Viktor wrote:

    Nice to know that Belarus and Kazahstan intend to buy S-400 which would make nice addition to their S-300 and all

    I don't think is a good idea Belarus get an S-400.. he seems that will backstab Russia and the second opportunity .  Just look at Ukraine..
    They HAve S-300s and for sure know NATO have to be reverse engineering them.. same with the SATAN missiles.. So if Belarus
    suddenly betray Russia he could use the S-400s and sell them easily to US for enough money to build its own Sochi olympics for free..
    Russia should trust no one.. their Best hardware.. because any coup in that nation will allow US to get access to Russia advanced
    military hardware. They can sell them to CHina after 10 years at least . China problem is they reverse engineer things and later sell it cheaper  to others..


    Quick question: How does S-400/S-500 stack up against the Pentagon's RIM-161 Standard Missile 3

    Not completely sure , but if i read it correctly ,people in discussion have said there is no comparison.  Because the Sm-3 (and this is according to discussion about it)  is NOT a SAM.. (surface Air Missile)  but more like a  SSM  (surface space missile) is only an Mesosphere Midcourse Interceptor. designed only to intercept High Altitude Ballistics ICBMs. And its warhead will not operate until is traveling on space orbit where satellites operate. So it cannot be used against a Combat plane ,drone or even less a cruise missile. Only operate at very high altitudes.. the 2500 range is not a big deal ,when you consider it operate under a near zero gravity space.  Smile  FLight ceiling is said to be 1,500km which is more than enough for any ICBM.  Limitations i have read of the SM-3 is that is only mid-course  ,means can only intercept when the ICBMS are in space zero gravity orbit and not when they are on the First phase or final phase ,also some said it cannot intercept fast mobile space targets and do not fly on a predictable linear path.   All said doesn't look like the SM-3 can intercept the Iskander ballistic  missiles ..
    because they fly not in a linear ballistic trajectory ,do heavy irregular flight path ,can do 90 degrees violent turns , and do not fly on the mesosphere space orbit the SM-3 operate.

    S-400s in the other hand ,have several missiles  3-4, that covers the entire spectrum of possible air to space targets.
    From very low altitude cruise missiles to ICBMs in space ,but without hit to kill ability  ,but using instead proximity fuse explosive.

    S-500s it have been said will be S-400s with hit to kill capabilities and with much enhanced range. .

    S-400s and perhaps S-500 have no analogue in US defense system. Because is a multi purpose all air +space defense.
    in the Case of USA.. they use at least 2 or 3 defense system to do what S-400s can do.. but without the hit to kill ability.



    edit.. This movie clearly the SM-3 how it works.... It needs to detach 2-3 boosters and float in space FIRST for its real warhead to operate.
    SM-3 is very good missile.. but Russia have nothing that im aware that could be compared.. Because SM-3 is mostly like a Mid-Course Space Interceptor. is a space weapon. It can be said the NATO lacks of a good air defense system but have a good space mid course interceptor for Navy.  The advantage of SM-3 is that it can take an ICBM very early on space.. Russia do not have much use for an Sm-3 however because their potential enemies like Poland and baltic states and now ukraine are right next to their borders. So any missile targeting Moscow will be Descending into an heavy air space environment. and SM-3 its warhead only works on zero gravity. it will not be able to aim a target if it cannot float as in the movie.  So its an interesting missile but is limited to high altitude space interception.

    The SM-3 interceptor.. its warhead is hidden inside a 3 stage rocket booster.. and its warhead accelerate from zero speed in space towards its target. So could be said is a reversed missile ,the interception is from top to down.  The S-400 intercept ICBMs.. from down to top ,the warhead aims from the start to the target ,as if they were planes . So 2 different ways to do the same thing. Just that the Sm-3 is limited to space ,it will not work with the regular air space with winds and gravity.. So for example an SM-3 is used against an iskander ballisctic missile  ,it will need to first reach zero gravity space bypassing the trajectory of the iskander and hope to catch it later. which dont think can do it ,because the warhead when start to chase a missile ,it already dropped all its powerful rocket boosters. Means it will have limited flight chase characteristics. Seems more like a Step in the middle bomb ,like a space mine but that can position in the front of an ICBM missile. but is very doubtful the warhead can chase from behind anything flying fast without rocket boosters.

    it will fail if for example is fooled by decoys..So i suspect NATO will need to fire many dozens of SM-3 missiles to try a single fast maneuverable ICBM missile .

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:14 pm

    but Russia have nothing that im aware that could be compared.. 

    A-135 and A-235? They aren't mobile at all, of course, but are dedicated strategic missile defence systems

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    US-Russian ABMs Comparison

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:49 am

    Asf wrote:
    but Russia have nothing that im aware that could be compared.. 

    A-135 and A-235? They aren't mobile at all, of course, but are dedicated strategic missile defence systems


    The A-135 is kinetic projectile with propulsion as far im aware.. with a nuclear warhead.  and the A-235 a newer version with hit to kill. Is like a Giant Bullet wit turbines.



    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-350.html)


     The SM-3 is more like a a space mine .. that needs to be deployed more or less  on the same trajectory that a missile will pass ,at least thats what it looks ,because is not a missile at all , Is more like a space mine with some limited propulsion and  Infra red sensors.  it will have not a chance to catch an an ICBM if fly pass it  . With normal Sams defenses a missile can chase a plane. but SM-3 warhead ,i don't think can chase a mach 23.0  ICBM from behind.. specially when the warhead of the SM-3 do not have rocket engines and start from speed zero..not a chance. Means the SM-3 can only work IF can predict the trajectory of a missile more or less.. and deploy its warhead earlier than a ICBM pass.

    It is good to remember that all S-400s -S500 can be used as mid course interceptors too. Difference is the Sm-3 is more like a space mine
    while S-400s and S-500 are maneuverable air and space missiles.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:34 pm

    THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:42 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Haha that comparison is funny because THAAD for instance can not shoot at anything flying throughout air ... meaning no cruise missiles, no precision guided bombs, no UAV/UCAV,

    no fighters, no anti-radiation missiles not areal tankers no AWACS no ELINT planes etc .. what is there to compare Very Happy


    Last edited by Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:42 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.


    Is THAAD reliable against chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed ) ? What about MEADS ?
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:01 pm

    max steel wrote:Is THAAD reliable against  chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed )   ? What about MEADS  ?

    ICBMs??? Its disputable against low level technology IRBMs.

    Russia on the other hand has a habbit to invite foreign representatives to the shooting to withness themselves Very Happy
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    medo

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:28 pm

    THAAD is very specific air defense complex, which could work only against ballistic missiles with the speed of up to 3000 m/s outside of atmosphere. S-400 could with 40N6 missile reach the same altitude, but could engage targets with higher speed up to 4800 m/s. Difference is, that THAAD is designed to hit to kill with its small satellite type killer, while 40N6 have classical warhead and could engage other targets too. I think the new missile for S-400 and S-500 will be for engaging even faster ballistic missiles (maybe to the class of ICBMs) and LEO satellites. We will see, when more will be known.ž

    MEADS is medium range SAM complex developed by US, Italy and Germany and is in class with Buk-M3 and S-350.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:06 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    The THAAD missile is comparable to the 40N6 only in terms of its altitude ceiling (which is somewhat lower) and role. But it's really a different type of missile altogether - it has a lot more in common with Russia's upcoming 77N6-N

    As for what precisely it's good for; I dunno - but if Russia is developing its own THAADski missile then it must excel in something.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.

    S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3.

    That is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types.

    However the S-500 is more than that; as it's compatible with the 77N6-N THAAD-like missiles too.
    So it's an all-in-one ABM platform whereas the USs ABM systems are split into a variety of non-standardised ones on different platforms - the longest-range of which (the SM-3) is only deployed on naval warships and if land-based would most probably be in the form of an immobile installation.

    A Naval S-400 or S-500 installation would be able to launch 77N6-N missiles. The US THAAD on the other hand is an army system and is restricted to land-based deployment.

    Adding to that - the S-400 systems will be compatible with the 77N6-N missile too; providing great flexibility and cost-savings for its deployment - the US has to have a dedicated vehicle-based system for it meanwhile.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:59 pm

    Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .




    I was also asking about Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) . NATO has it .

    I got this article on it : http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-03-2013/123967-s_400_meads-0/

    But its Pravda . i heard it's not a reliable source Very Happy
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:54 pm

    max steel wrote:Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .




    I was also asking about Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) . NATO has it .

    I got this article on it : http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-03-2013/123967-s_400_meads-0/

    But its Pravda . i heard it's not a reliable source Very Happy

    Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.  But they sure did get it out before Russia did.  S-300V4 missile is also similar in range as SM-6 but not a navy weapon.  S-500 will be using a hypersonic missile.  Are SM-3 or SM-6 hypersonic?  SM-3 is 4 stage rocket, what is 77N6-N is how many stages supposed to be?
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:13 am

    Don't ask me . tongue . I can give you economic insights not military tech . IT ain't my forte ( that's why i came here ). YOU should tell me rather . Well if russians are ahead in missile tech then how come yanks came out first with such missile ( working perhaps ) . Throw some light on MEADS also . Thanx .
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:47 am

    US and Russia have different priorities based on the perceived threats and put different emphasis on weapons systems as a result.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:49 am

    max steel wrote:Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .

    It is the case and indeed Russia is lagging behind in high-altitude ABM defence; the only comparable system it has in operation is the ABM defence ring around Moscow.
    And of course, Russia doesn't have those targetting radars and interceptors in Eastern Europe and Alaska that the US is implementing.

    That's why I think putting S-500s on the nuclear destroyer classes its drawing up is a good idea.

    I'm not sure of the Redut cells' compatability with larger missiles like the 77N6-N, 40N6 or even the medium/long-range 48N6 missiles.
    If they are not compatible with at least the latter 2 - then something has to be done about that too.

    And the Reduts aren't even widespread. Those of Russia's large surface-vessels with substantial air-defence capabilties still rely on the S-300F system; which has really had its day by now.
    The exception is the Pyotr Velikiy with the S-300FM; which is compatible with the 48N6 missile. In the absence of info about Redut capability I have to conclude that this is the very pinicle of what the Russian navy can do right now in terms of air-defense/ABM capability - a 150km max range missile with a 27km altitude ceiling; albeit a hypersonic one that can comfortably engage some types of ballistic missiles. Even then though the navy has only 1 ship equipped with this missile. By 2015 standards this isn't particularly impressive.

    However, on a positive note - on land at least; Russia should be comfortably ahead of the US in terms of strength, versatility and cost-effectiveness of ABM-defences once the S-500 starts entering service in numbers and the 77N6-Ns are deployed to S-400 regiments.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:03 am

    Why put the SM systems on ships if it is not to get those ships in close proximity with Russia's coasts and try to intercept Russian
    ICBMs after launch. The Russian system around Moscow is intended to intercept incoming warheads. This discussion about who
    is behind and ahead is comparing apples and oranges.

    As far as I can tell the S-500 will have the capacity to launch missiles derived from the 1960s hypersonic interceptor class such
    as the ones developed by the USA and the USSR and which are deployed around Moscow. This begs the question as to how advanced
    are these missiles today. I will dismiss out of hand any claim that they are the same level they were back in the 1980s. There was
    no stoppage of missile development in Russia after 1991. If Russia feels it can intercept warheads at the incoming end as opposed to
    the outgoing end, then that is rather significant. If Russia was merely "catching up" to the USA (a retarded cold war trope) then it
    would be deploying SM-like systems on ships.

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:18 am

    sepheronx wrote:Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.

    You can't always compare Russian and American missiles; because they happen to be out of phase by 180 degrees in regards to each others classes and characteristics. Russia and America have different conceptions of different missile classes.

    The SM-6 (an upgraded SM-2) has the speed and range of a 40N6, while it has the altitude ceiling of a 48N6
    The SM-1 is more or less equivalent to the 9M96E2, albeit it has a longer range and slightly lower altitude ceiling.

    The SM-3 in terms of role is equivalent to the 40N6 - however the SM-3 far exceeds the 40N6 in terms of range and ceiling.
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:51 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.

    You can't always compare Russian and American missiles; because they happen to be out of phase by 180 degrees in regards to each others classes and characteristics. Russia and America have different conceptions of different missile classes.

    The SM-6 (an upgraded SM-2) has the speed and range of a 40N6, while it has the altitude ceiling of a 48N6
    The SM-1 is more or less equivalent to the 9M96E2, albeit it has a longer range and slightly lower altitude ceiling.

    The SM-3 in terms of role is equivalent to the 40N6 - however the SM-3 far exceeds the 40N6 in terms of range and ceiling.

    How SM-3 got its range seems to be that it is a 4 stage rocket. How many stages does the 40N6 have?
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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:52 am

    Well it seems US got pretty decent interceptors with missiles like russian missiles and they are coming up more fastly with such intercepting missiles . Thats why US is pushing Russia for a direct confrontation . Unlike we thought their abm arent efficient .


    Ive read an article which said usa GMD interceptors cant intercept icbms .

    Where can Russia put its missile defense system if usa is planning to put its in eastern europe .?

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:57 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.
    What is easyer: to have a short range but deploy on ships and so on or having long range and problems to deploy anywhere? Also i must ask : why there is multiple forms of rockets? Whit one single could not get all threats? Partial answer i have is that is a compromise between weight of fuel manevrability and speed. So those that are heavy have long range and speed but bad steering. And those who have steering dont have weight range. In this a best radar that see far and can direct the missile correct to the path use long range speed and slow steering. And those have no best radar use low range but steering

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    Re: Ιntercepting Ballistic Missiles. US vs Russian ABMs

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:01 pm

    max steel wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.


    Is THAAD reliable against  chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed )   ? What about MEADS  ?
    If ICBMs have a little steering is over for that. Lets think that to a ICBM a pair of left and right aditionally engine could steer

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