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    Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

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    Asf

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:14 pm

    but Russia have nothing that im aware that could be compared.. 

    A-135 and A-235? They aren't mobile at all, of course, but are dedicated strategic missile defence systems

    Vann7

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    US-Russian ABMs Comparison

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:49 am

    Asf wrote:
    but Russia have nothing that im aware that could be compared.. 

    A-135 and A-235? They aren't mobile at all, of course, but are dedicated strategic missile defence systems


    The A-135 is kinetic projectile with propulsion as far im aware.. with a nuclear warhead.  and the A-235 a newer version with hit to kill. Is like a Giant Bullet wit turbines.



    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-350.html)


     The SM-3 is more like a a space mine .. that needs to be deployed more or less  on the same trajectory that a missile will pass ,at least thats what it looks ,because is not a missile at all , Is more like a space mine with some limited propulsion and  Infra red sensors.  it will have not a chance to catch an an ICBM if fly pass it  . With normal Sams defenses a missile can chase a plane. but SM-3 warhead ,i don't think can chase a mach 23.0  ICBM from behind.. specially when the warhead of the SM-3 do not have rocket engines and start from speed zero..not a chance. Means the SM-3 can only work IF can predict the trajectory of a missile more or less.. and deploy its warhead earlier than a ICBM pass.

    It is good to remember that all S-400s -S500 can be used as mid course interceptors too. Difference is the Sm-3 is more like a space mine
    while S-400s and S-500 are maneuverable air and space missiles.
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:34 pm

    THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:42 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Haha that comparison is funny because THAAD for instance can not shoot at anything flying throughout air ... meaning no cruise missiles, no precision guided bombs, no UAV/UCAV,

    no fighters, no anti-radiation missiles not areal tankers no AWACS no ELINT planes etc .. what is there to compare Very Happy


    Last edited by Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:42 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.


    Is THAAD reliable against chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed ) ? What about MEADS ?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:01 pm

    max steel wrote:Is THAAD reliable against  chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed )   ? What about MEADS  ?

    ICBMs??? Its disputable against low level technology IRBMs.

    Russia on the other hand has a habbit to invite foreign representatives to the shooting to withness themselves Very Happy
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    medo

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:28 pm

    THAAD is very specific air defense complex, which could work only against ballistic missiles with the speed of up to 3000 m/s outside of atmosphere. S-400 could with 40N6 missile reach the same altitude, but could engage targets with higher speed up to 4800 m/s. Difference is, that THAAD is designed to hit to kill with its small satellite type killer, while 40N6 have classical warhead and could engage other targets too. I think the new missile for S-400 and S-500 will be for engaging even faster ballistic missiles (maybe to the class of ICBMs) and LEO satellites. We will see, when more will be known.ž

    MEADS is medium range SAM complex developed by US, Italy and Germany and is in class with Buk-M3 and S-350.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:06 pm

    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    The THAAD missile is comparable to the 40N6 only in terms of its altitude ceiling (which is somewhat lower) and role. But it's really a different type of missile altogether - it has a lot more in common with Russia's upcoming 77N6-N

    As for what precisely it's good for; I dunno - but if Russia is developing its own THAADski missile then it must excel in something.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.

    S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3.

    That is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types.

    However the S-500 is more than that; as it's compatible with the 77N6-N THAAD-like missiles too.
    So it's an all-in-one ABM platform whereas the USs ABM systems are split into a variety of non-standardised ones on different platforms - the longest-range of which (the SM-3) is only deployed on naval warships and if land-based would most probably be in the form of an immobile installation.

    A Naval S-400 or S-500 installation would be able to launch 77N6-N missiles. The US THAAD on the other hand is an army system and is restricted to land-based deployment.

    Adding to that - the S-400 systems will be compatible with the 77N6-N missile too; providing great flexibility and cost-savings for its deployment - the US has to have a dedicated vehicle-based system for it meanwhile.
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:59 pm

    Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .




    I was also asking about Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) . NATO has it .

    I got this article on it : http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-03-2013/123967-s_400_meads-0/

    But its Pravda . i heard it's not a reliable source Very Happy
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:54 pm

    max steel wrote:Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .




    I was also asking about Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) . NATO has it .

    I got this article on it : http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/05-03-2013/123967-s_400_meads-0/

    But its Pravda . i heard it's not a reliable source Very Happy

    Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.  But they sure did get it out before Russia did.  S-300V4 missile is also similar in range as SM-6 but not a navy weapon.  S-500 will be using a hypersonic missile.  Are SM-3 or SM-6 hypersonic?  SM-3 is 4 stage rocket, what is 77N6-N is how many stages supposed to be?
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:13 am

    Don't ask me . tongue . I can give you economic insights not military tech . IT ain't my forte ( that's why i came here ). YOU should tell me rather . Well if russians are ahead in missile tech then how come yanks came out first with such missile ( working perhaps ) . Throw some light on MEADS also . Thanx .
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:47 am

    US and Russia have different priorities based on the perceived threats and put different emphasis on weapons systems as a result.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:49 am

    max steel wrote:Thanx python I already got my answer


    " S-500, could be the Russian equivalent to the US SM-3 .hat is, if it approaches the SM-3 in terms of range and altitude ceiling with one of its missile types."

    If that's the case then you don't think russia is lagging as US has developed SM-6 and they've deployed them in few of  their aegis ships already .

    It is the case and indeed Russia is lagging behind in high-altitude ABM defence; the only comparable system it has in operation is the ABM defence ring around Moscow.
    And of course, Russia doesn't have those targetting radars and interceptors in Eastern Europe and Alaska that the US is implementing.

    That's why I think putting S-500s on the nuclear destroyer classes its drawing up is a good idea.

    I'm not sure of the Redut cells' compatability with larger missiles like the 77N6-N, 40N6 or even the medium/long-range 48N6 missiles.
    If they are not compatible with at least the latter 2 - then something has to be done about that too.

    And the Reduts aren't even widespread. Those of Russia's large surface-vessels with substantial air-defence capabilties still rely on the S-300F system; which has really had its day by now.
    The exception is the Pyotr Velikiy with the S-300FM; which is compatible with the 48N6 missile. In the absence of info about Redut capability I have to conclude that this is the very pinicle of what the Russian navy can do right now in terms of air-defense/ABM capability - a 150km max range missile with a 27km altitude ceiling; albeit a hypersonic one that can comfortably engage some types of ballistic missiles. Even then though the navy has only 1 ship equipped with this missile. By 2015 standards this isn't particularly impressive.

    However, on a positive note - on land at least; Russia should be comfortably ahead of the US in terms of strength, versatility and cost-effectiveness of ABM-defences once the S-500 starts entering service in numbers and the 77N6-Ns are deployed to S-400 regiments.
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    kvs

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:03 am

    Why put the SM systems on ships if it is not to get those ships in close proximity with Russia's coasts and try to intercept Russian
    ICBMs after launch. The Russian system around Moscow is intended to intercept incoming warheads. This discussion about who
    is behind and ahead is comparing apples and oranges.

    As far as I can tell the S-500 will have the capacity to launch missiles derived from the 1960s hypersonic interceptor class such
    as the ones developed by the USA and the USSR and which are deployed around Moscow. This begs the question as to how advanced
    are these missiles today. I will dismiss out of hand any claim that they are the same level they were back in the 1980s. There was
    no stoppage of missile development in Russia after 1991. If Russia feels it can intercept warheads at the incoming end as opposed to
    the outgoing end, then that is rather significant. If Russia was merely "catching up" to the USA (a retarded cold war trope) then it
    would be deploying SM-like systems on ships.

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    flamming_python

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:18 am

    sepheronx wrote:Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.

    You can't always compare Russian and American missiles; because they happen to be out of phase by 180 degrees in regards to each others classes and characteristics. Russia and America have different conceptions of different missile classes.

    The SM-6 (an upgraded SM-2) has the speed and range of a 40N6, while it has the altitude ceiling of a 48N6
    The SM-1 is more or less equivalent to the 9M96E2, albeit it has a longer range and slightly lower altitude ceiling.

    The SM-3 in terms of role is equivalent to the 40N6 - however the SM-3 far exceeds the 40N6 in terms of range and ceiling.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:51 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Depends on how you look at it.  They certainly are ahead in the things like range and what not, but S-400's 40N6 missile outdoes SM-6 in terms of range and possibly altitude.

    You can't always compare Russian and American missiles; because they happen to be out of phase by 180 degrees in regards to each others classes and characteristics. Russia and America have different conceptions of different missile classes.

    The SM-6 (an upgraded SM-2) has the speed and range of a 40N6, while it has the altitude ceiling of a 48N6
    The SM-1 is more or less equivalent to the 9M96E2, albeit it has a longer range and slightly lower altitude ceiling.

    The SM-3 in terms of role is equivalent to the 40N6 - however the SM-3 far exceeds the 40N6 in terms of range and ceiling.

    How SM-3 got its range seems to be that it is a 4 stage rocket. How many stages does the 40N6 have?
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:52 am

    Well it seems US got pretty decent interceptors with missiles like russian missiles and they are coming up more fastly with such intercepting missiles . Thats why US is pushing Russia for a direct confrontation . Unlike we thought their abm arent efficient .


    Ive read an article which said usa GMD interceptors cant intercept icbms .

    Where can Russia put its missile defense system if usa is planning to put its in eastern europe .?

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:57 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.
    What is easyer: to have a short range but deploy on ships and so on or having long range and problems to deploy anywhere? Also i must ask : why there is multiple forms of rockets? Whit one single could not get all threats? Partial answer i have is that is a compromise between weight of fuel manevrability and speed. So those that are heavy have long range and speed but bad steering. And those who have steering dont have weight range. In this a best radar that see far and can direct the missile correct to the path use long range speed and slow steering. And those have no best radar use low range but steering

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:01 pm

    max steel wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    max steel wrote:THAAD missile comparable to S-400 40N-6 . Really ? I read In s400/500 thread that thaad is inferior to s-400
    What in comparison with s-300 ?

    Dunno since thaad has short range but real high altitude. 40N6 gives s-400 thaad altitude but has also 400km range and high manouverability. S-500 is a class of its own but I suppose thaad would be us equivelent. In terms of operation purpose.


    Is THAAD reliable against  chinese north korean or russian Icmbs ( how many test thaad has passed )   ? What about MEADS  ?
    If ICBMs have a little steering is over for that. Lets think that to a ICBM a pair of left and right aditionally engine could steer
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:15 pm

    I've noticed not only Russia but US also tests its ABM every year . eg. THAAD . For past 10 years it had 100% success rate but its reliablitiy isn't proven yet . My bad MEADS is basically a GMD . Idea
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    GarryB

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:16 pm

    Ignore THAAD... the TH stands for theatre... it is only designed to hit Scud and Scud like ballistic missiles and is not capable against ICBMs or SLBMs.
    The SM-3 is supposed to hit ballistic missiles mid course... there are three places you can intercept a ballistic missile... at launch... which is easiest as all the warheads are together so even if the missile carries 20 warheads it only takes one hit to take them all down... and of course the target is easy to spot as it has an enormous ball of fire at its base as it climbs. the second place to intercept is between the target and launch pad for a mid course intercept, this is harder because the target is at full speed but not burning rocket fuel so harder to spot and flying high. The advantage is that you don't need to operate within enemy territory to take the shot. And finally you can locate interceptor missiles near the target for terminal interception... for 20 warheads you have 20 targets, and they don't start glowing till they enter the atmosphere, but it is your air space and with plenty of warning you have the advantage that they are coming to you.

    The SM-3 plus the naval S-500 are examples of the mid course interception, while the land based S-500 and GMD and the moscow ABM system are examples of terminal interception options... both SM-3 and S-500 can be located in the arctic for mid course interception.

    THAAD might be useful for any Scuds but not Iskanders or anything actually dangerous.


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    Austin

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  Austin on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:52 pm

    S-500 is not a midcourse interceptor but more of high altitude terminal one for ICBM targets
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    max steel

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    Re: Comparison of American vs Russian ABMs

    Post  max steel on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:53 pm

    Austin read it again he said naval version of S-500 and S-400 will be midcourse interception .

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