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    S-400 SAM System Exports

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    Viktor

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Viktor on Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:09 pm

    Arrow wrote:S-400 use only one type of munitions 48N6DM missile. Of course meyby mythical 40N6.

    S-400 uses 4 types of munitions:

    - 48N6DM
    - 9M96M
    - 9M96M2
    - 40N6

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Maybe, but not safe at all.  The Russian mod isn't foolish though.  They know very well what is possibly at stake. Giving modern, advanced Russian AD system isn't a smart thing to do, especially to Turkey.  But S-400 isn't anything new technically, and they could end up giving Turkey something like a PMU-1 but renamed to S-400.

    I agree, for instance S-400 of 2007 is very different from the S-400 from 2017 Very Happy


    JohninMK

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:54 pm

    As posted above, the S-400 comes in a multitude of configurations and the Russians are definitely not stupid in their supply of systems to questionable customers.

    I would have thought that the Turks would have provided a specification including the potential targets that they wanted protection against, as opposed to just baldly asking for the latest spec units, which they, not being stupid themselves, would know would be laughed out of court.

    If the order goes ahead, bear in mind that delivery would probably be after the Syrian crisis is over, it will be to a configuration that both parties are comfortable with the inherent risks.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:27 pm


    I am sure it will be just glorified S-300 installed on BAZ chassis because that would make it look most S-400-ish.

    And since they are already selling S-400 to Chinese they probably expect data to leak anyway. Not that Chinese one are most recent models. And there is no way that anything other than oldest missiles are exported.

    This could also mean that they are further along in development of next models.

    Arrow

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Arrow on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:41 pm

    -400 uses 4 types of munitions: - 48N6DM - 9M96M - 9M96M2 - 40N6 wrote:

    S-400 in Russia doesn' t use 9M96 missile. This missile will by in S-350 system.


    agree, for instance S-400 of 2007 is very different from the S-400 from 2017 wrote:

    So what is the different ?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:42 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    S-400 in Russia doesn' t use 9M96 missile. This missile will by in S-350 system.

    Huh


    Austin

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:30 pm

    Once Turkey gets S-400 even lets say in downgraded version , NATO would start exercising against the system in multiple exercises.

    I wont be surprised to find out that NATO is funding this buy to get a good look at S-400 radar and then missile.

    They would given them better view of S-400 system and deal with it in somewhat effective way then not having exposure to it and trying to figure it out.

    I hope the deal does not materalises its a bad deal.

    I wouldnt mind Turkey getting some downgraded S-300P variant or BUK-M1

    Isnt it a surprise for all the system Russia sells and it practically sells every thing , Turkey is only interested in S-400 system ? They can easily buy a PAC-3MSE or THAAD or Aster system from NATO
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:01 pm

    Austin wrote:Once Turkey gets S-400 even lets say in downgraded version , NATO would start exercising against the system in multiple exercises.

    ...............

    They have been exercising against Czech Cold War era S-300 and they still haven't cracked it properly (other than with raw numbers)

    Austin

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:33 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Austin wrote:Once Turkey gets S-400 even lets say in downgraded version , NATO would start exercising against the system in multiple exercises.

    ...............

    They have been exercising against Czech Cold War era S-300 and they still haven't cracked it properly (other than with raw numbers)

    How would any one know if that hasent been cracked , Even then is that an excuse to let NATO train on a S-400 system given to turkey.

    S-400 should not be exported before 2025 other than to friendly china india and CSTO countries , Let NATO and its friends keep guessing how to deal with it.

    Turkey is a two headed snake , Dont trust emm
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:55 am

    Some of you guys really need to re-read your own posts.

    S-400 isn't a single setup system. It is an S-300 modified to newer technology. They have what we all call an export models. If you guys seriously think you are smarter than the MoD of Russia, I would think again. They know what they are getting into. So long as they provide a similar system that they offer to China and other countries, they do not care if US will have access to testing it. The radar, the comm systems, the control structure, the missiles, etc will all be using components that may be specific to export. Maybe even imported components meant for export. Like Su-30SM vs MKI or others.

    Austin

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:18 am

    Even if these systems are export oriented there is lot NATO can learn from it , Even Chinese and Indian system are export oriented but they are not hostile nations.

    Isnt it surprising of all the system Russia exports Turkey needs only the S-400 when they can get THAAD/ASTER/PAC-3 etc from NATO ......Think Again!
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:06 am

    Austin wrote:Even if these systems are export oriented there is lot NATO can learn from it , Even Chinese and Indian system are export oriented but they are not hostile nations.

    Isnt it surprising of all the system Russia exports Turkey needs only the S-400 when they can get THAAD/ASTER/PAC-3 etc from NATO ......Think Again!

    Why don't you then go tell the Russians how fucking stupid they are.  Maybe then they will explain it to you.

    I will attempt one last time with you. In a language you may understand:

    Duurrr....Export Model.....Durr not using Russian base components thus NOT the same system....Durrr Get money from same model sold to China, India and other nations but not Russia....durrr Russia doesn't care about handing system similar to what other nations like China and India are getting... Durrr.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total

    Austin

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:10 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Why don't you then go tell the Russians how fucking stupid they are.  Maybe then they will explain it to you.

    May be you should do that Laughing

    Seriously though I just hope the deal fails and they get some old BUK instead for NATO to practise


    Last edited by Austin on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:11 am

    Austin wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Austin wrote:Even if these systems are export oriented there is lot NATO can learn from it , Even Chinese and Indian system are export oriented but they are not hostile nations.

    Isnt it surprising of all the system Russia exports Turkey needs only the S-400 when they can get THAAD/ASTER/PAC-3 etc from NATO ......Think Again!

    Why don't you then go tell the Russians how fucking stupid they are.  Maybe then they will explain it to you.

    May be you should do that Laughing
    [/quote]

    I am not the one being a bitch about the sale.  Re-read my comment above so you can get a better understanding.  Something you seem to be having trouble catching the hint.  You seem to be thinking you are smarter than Russian mod thus you are complaining about the sale.

    Do you really think Russian mod is so fucking oblivious they think that they will sell an advanced airdefense system that NATO will not all of a sudden gain a hold of the knowledge behind it? You think they are unaware of Turkey being a complete incompetent country with wishy washy politics? You think they are unaware that Turkey is part of NATO? If you know that they know all of this, yet still sealing a deal for S-400, that maybe just maybe they figured something you have not? Maybe they figured that what I am saying is the same they may be thinking?

    Austin

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:16 am

    Sometimes its better to give your adversary not even 1 % insight into your system , if that helps.

    I oppose any sale of S-400 or top notch system to any NATO country ..it is just a way to gather intelligence
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:18 am

    Austin wrote:Sometimes its better to give your adversary not even 1 % insight into your system , if that helps.

    I oppose any sale of S-400 or top notch system to any NATO country ..it is just a way to gather intelligence

    They are not getting a single thing they are not already getting from S-300PMU from Greece and Slovenia, etc. They are at least going to get billions out of it or at least billions with interest since it is based on a loan. So Turkey will end up owing them. Once turk stream is up, I imagine more deals will also happen. Turkey is playing a different game, competing against both Russia and US, at the same time, ready to give head to both of them too.
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    Godric

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Godric on Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:03 am

    Grazneyar wrote:I read the article and it says that no deal has been signed, they are 'in talks'. It is an agreement in principle.
    With the current political situation any kind of leverage or side agendas could be operating here. Unless Turkey leaving NATO is one of the key priciples agreed to I doubt this will go any further.

    Russia should be wary of selling any modern military hardware to a NATO country ... no doubt within 2 weeks of receiving the hardware US tech heads would be poking around it to see how it works and how to defeat it ... i wouldn't even sell the Turks the S-125 Neva if i was Russia ... they are two faced bassars
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:07 pm

    Please settle down people.

    I understand what you are saying Austin, but at the end of the day the makers of the S-400 are always learning and improving their systems. Sales help pay for R&D and so a sale to Turkey will actually help fund further development for upgrades.

    For all we know the system they will get will not really be an S-400 system as such... it might just be an S-300 system with moderately improved export bits and pieces that are completely different from in service Russia units.

    No matter how the S-400 works there will be vulnerabilities that will not become obvious except over time and exposure to a capable enemy.

    Further upgrades and improvements will most likely be based on enemy attempts to counteract the systems.

    Just look at the SA-6... it had TELs and a central radar vehicle. Seemed a capable system and it wasn't bad, but Israeli tactics were to send in drones to get it to use its radar. SEAD fighters then fired ARMs to defeat the radar vehicle and then the TELs were left with no ability to guide their missiles and were destroyed easily by F-16s armed with dumb bombs.

    The result was the SA-11 which has the upgrade of an optical guidance channel and each TEL has a target tracking radar so if the primary search radar vehicle is taken out aircraft can still be engaged by the TELs with both radar and optical systems.

    The SA-17 was a further upgrade that added the ability to take down ARMs and high speed targets that might threaten the battery.

    The S-400 has the lessons of the past few decades and is a piece of a system geared to defeat air power.

    At the end of the day a military tie with Turkey will be good for Russia and even if they don't realise it... good for Turkey too.

    Lets face it the EU are not interested in Turkey and they only want it for its location regarding the Middle East and Russia.

    The sooner the Turks realise this and start looking elsewhere for friends the better for Turkey.


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    rambo54

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:29 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    S-400 in Russia doesn' t use 9M96 missile. This missile will by in S-350 system.

    Huh


    First slide reveals the launcher: 5P85S
    http://up.picr.de/29056339dm.jpg
    hard to estimate the length. Could be 9M96E2 but also 48N6
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    Isos

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    S-400 Exports

    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:04 pm

    rambo54 wrote:

    First slide reveals the launcher: 5P85S
    http://up.picr.de/29056339dm.jpg
    hard to estimate the length. Could be 9M96E2 but also 48N6

    No. 48N6 doesn't have this black smock. Just 9M96. You can see the same black smock when they test naval redut.

    Sometimes its better to give your adversary not even 1 % insight into your system , if that helps.

    I oppose any sale of S-400 or top notch system to any NATO country ..it is just a way to gather intelligence

    They won't sell it. It's just that now the relations of Turkey with NATO/USA/EU ae very bad and Russia is trying to put more confusion by saying they will give them S-400. That's just a political move from Putin. They is 0 chances they give what will bethe backbone of russian defence to a NATO country, not even export version.
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    Airman

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Airman on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:43 pm

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    George1

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:25 am

    Turkish President Erdogan announced the signing of an agreement with Russia on the supply of S-400 SAMs

    As TASS reported, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on July 25, 2017 that Ankara and Moscow had signed certain documents in the framework of an agreement on the purchase of Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile systems. "We took steps on this issue with the Russian Federation, signed signatures, and I hope we will see S-400 rockets in our country, and we will also ask for joint production of these systems," he said.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2749330.html


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:25 pm

    George1 wrote:Turkish President Erdogan announced the signing of an agreement with Russia on the supply of S-400 SAMs

    As TASS reported, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on July 25, 2017 that Ankara and Moscow had signed certain documents in the framework of an agreement on the purchase of Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile systems. "We took steps on this issue with the Russian Federation, signed signatures, and I hope we will see S-400 rockets in our country, and we will also ask for joint production of these systems," he said.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2749330.html

    Has the Russian MoD lost there damn mind, i wouldn't give Hitler his artillery, so why is Erdo getting S-400s??
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    Isos

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:32 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    George1 wrote:Turkish President Erdogan announced the signing of an agreement with Russia on the supply of S-400 SAMs

    As TASS reported, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on July 25, 2017 that Ankara and Moscow had signed certain documents in the framework of an agreement on the purchase of Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile systems. "We took steps on this issue with the Russian Federation, signed signatures, and I hope we will see S-400 rockets in our country, and we will also ask for joint production of these systems," he said.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2749330.html

    Has the Russian MoD lost there damn mind, i wouldn't give Hitler his artillery, so why is Erdo getting S-400s??

    Because they sell them almost 500 million $ each, and it is an export model probably at the same lvl as Greek S-300.
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:41 pm

    To paraphrase the western allies regarding their cooperation with Stalin during WWII... he might be a bastard, but he is our bastard (within NATO).

    Having Turkey using S-400 means other NATO countries could use Russian kit too... and production in Turkey could allow the purchase of the system by other members of the EU and NATO too. Smile

    Imagine that...

    All the ECCM and ESM sytems will be unique to Turkey and different from those of India or China or Russia, so any benefit will simply be the use and production of a superior SAM system... superior to Euro and US equivalents anyway... Smile

    The money made can be used to further upgrade Russian systems.


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    Airman

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    Re: S-400 SAM System Exports

    Post  Airman on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:46 pm

    There is no need for export model. Turkey wont be able to use the S-400's as effectively as Russia. We don't have Early Warning Radar system to integrate S-400 systems like Russia. There are long range radar systems in Turkey, but they are produced entirely in NATO standards.

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