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    F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:44 am

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Well all of this authenticate garbage about this supposedly new "Trojan Horse" strategy and a role in to be played by the any-day-more-technically-outdated trillion dollar F-35 program (that is in reality in very heavy risk to be deeply curtailed) is the best proof , togheter with the concentric efforts by almost all US related Instututions to create the basis for a new weapon control treaties including the new generation Federation's weapons, that over the ocean the perception of american position in the new strategic environment is darkening up and up.



    I guess some military and journos look in wrong direction, it is NOT bout F-35. Check Gersimov opinion first.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6178016
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    Post  Arrow on Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:11 pm


    "To date, the Voronezh-type over-the horizon station has been put on duty, which will detect a five-kopeck coin at a height of 30 kilometers per thousand kilometer wrote:

    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing  


    Voronezh is not a over-horizontal radar. This is the LPAR will not detect F-35 because it looks high into space. It has to detect RV.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:20 pm

    This is all very classy, first threaten Russia with their new shiny F-35 and then smear them with MH17 when they answer that they have some AD in place. So many in the West seem to have defamation and propaganda in their blood, they are nothing but snakes in the grass with their fake equanimity.

    arrow wrote:Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Voronezh is not a over-horizontal radar. This is the LPAR will not detect F-35 because it looks high into space. It has to detect RV.
    What are you laughing at? This is an early warning radar, it wont give a fuck whether it is a F-35 or any other kind of aerial target.

    In what elevation angle do you think this array is operating, and what radar horizon it would have when placed in Kaliningrad or Crimea for instance?

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    Post  Arrow on Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:56 pm

    Voronezh is an EW radar but it is not an OTH radar. The OTH radar is the Contener system.
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:52 pm

    Arrow wrote:Voronezh is an EW radar but it is not an OTH radar. The OTH radar is the Contener system.
    Yes that is what I said. Why do you think it is not going to see aircraft? It has an horizontal range of 6000 km / vertical range 8000 km, everything that comes above radar horizon will be caught. It can see a target the size of a football ball at 8000 km. So a F-35 would need to do exactly the same as 4G fighters to avoid detection, that is to fly below radar horizon... and hope other radars like Container you mention, AWACS etc etc. do not pick it up.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:08 pm

    Isn´t the F-35 supposed to be invisible for radar? Very Happy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:29 am

    Hole wrote:Isn´t the F-35 supposed to be invisible for radar? Very Happy

    it is! when is not flying of course thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:45 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Hole wrote:Isn´t the F-35 supposed to be invisible for radar? Very Happy

    it is!  when is not flying of course thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


    F-35, F-22, and the B-2 have incredible stealth.........for every '1' flight hour they could be potentially detected in the sky, '40' flight hours they're impossible to 'detect' in the sky.........they have maintenance hangar stealth!!!!!! Wink Razz Embarassed
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:29 am

    It would be radar systems like Nebo M, SVU and others that would mostly be used to detect the F-35's. Voronezh can but only at specific altitudes greater than 30km. Below that, they rely on other radar systems.

    There is boasting from US on F-35 because they need to sell it. Various professionals to even military officials in other nations with even US itself that scrutinized the F-35 but either they been silenced or fired, along with others being out down about their comments. F-35 isn't a bad jet at all and is a real threat. BUT, it isn't all that it is cracked up to be either. It is VLO. It will be detected but at shorter ranges than other aircrafts would be. Does it mean it can fly within Chinese or Russian territory? Maybe. But it won't get far before being detected by something.

    Future for Russia will be satellite based radar systems for detecting everything.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:08 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:

    Well all of this authenticate garbage about this supposedly new "Trojan Horse" strategy and a role in to be played by the any-day-more-technically-outdated trillion dollar F-35 program (that is in reality in very heavy risk to be deeply curtailed) is the best proof , togheter with the concentric efforts by almost all US related Instututions to create the basis for a new weapon control treaties including the new generation Federation's weapons, that over the ocean the perception of american position in the new strategic environment is darkening up and up.



    I guess some military and journos look in wrong direction, it is NOT bout F-35.  Check Gersimov opinion first.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6178016


    It is the right direction Gun Wink

    The so called new strategy - Trojan Horse" (that as already said has the real aim to save F-35 program providing to it a supposed as phantasious role in a conflict against a technologically peer/superior opponent) foresee the co-action attack of a soft-power component (fifth-column internal uprising) contemporaneously with a deep penetration military air group (with an hypothetical strong density of F-35 and UAVs) with data collection and dissemination roles, to allow stand-off attack means to capitalize for potential holes in the defensive network found by the previously cited F-35/UAV Group.

    Now as well said by Gen. Сергей Хатылев this supposed new strategy would cause strong laughter's attacks among military operatives and serious, competent, political figures in any nation worldwide, but here we talk of the US and therefore similar Hollywoodish trash will a have a good chance to gain support and money from the typical ignorant but US-exceptionalism-afflicted Congress member.


    Arrow wrote:Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Voronezh is not a over-horizontal radar. This is the LPAR will not detect F-35 because it looks high into space. It has to detect RV.
    Voronezh is an EW radar but it is not an OTH radar. The OTH radar is the Contener system.

    Oh my......

    I've talked several times of this subject in pasted years but it appear that something just return under the huge noise generated by the powerful PR machine of the exceptionally-ignorant/incompetent over-ocean nation.

    "Воронеж" aerospace control radars has primary anti-ballistic roles, but has also entirely supplanted and enormously expanded and improved the previous OTH Soviet network (that was incidentally also the first at world with a huge technological lead in comparison with any competitor of the time); in particular today strategic control and follow of potentially dangerous aerodynamics targets (literally at several thousands km of distance and often with a serial target number provided at theirs very take-off) including UAVs, aircraft and above all cruise missiles of various kind is completed just by the network of those radars.


    https://iz.ru/news/703064
    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/8509

    I think that some western operatives would fall in true depression observing the surveillance screen of a working Воронеж............

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    Post  kvs on Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:35 pm

    Hole wrote:Isn´t the F-35 supposed to be invisible for radar? Very Happy

    These NATO fanboi retards don't even know what a phased array "radar" is. And then they think that Russia does not have any radars for
    different target classes. Utter drooling idiots. The F-35 is not going to be engaging any targets in Russia while it is 6,000 km away.

    It is pointless having a discussion with these morons. They do not have the mental capacity to process facts that do not conform
    to their wishful thinking and knee-jerk racist perceptions.

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    Post  LMFS on Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:48 pm

    @Mindstorm:

    Great! How would this radar detect low-flying targets beyond radar horizon? Is it capable of direct and OTH operation simultaneously?
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    Post  Hole on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:10 pm

    There is a documentary from Zvezda in the video section in which also the Woronesh radars are mentioned. The dude was using a flashlight and a mirror to show on a globe how the radar works = radar "beam" is reflected by some layer of the atmosphere. So I would say it is capable of OTH.
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:25 pm

    OTH radars from what I read use HF frequency (3-30 Mhz), whereas Voronezh-VP is VHF. Maybe there is something very sophisticated going on in those radars, the designers received a prize for their work on them. Time to research a bit, imagine a VHF radar on a ship with OTH capability...

    EDIT:

    These radars seem to be multiband, maybe they operate in VHF/UHF but also in lower frequencies in case of need, the size of the array does not seem to be a problem.

    According to Putin, the new plant is able to look "beyond the horizon" and can identify even the most inconspicuous target, in fractions of a second to detect missile launches of various types for hundreds and even thousands of kilometers from the Russian border.
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130606/941867488.html
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    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:21 am

    Voronesh-M and -VP work in VHF, Voronesh-DM in UHF.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:09 pm

    LMFS wrote:OTH radars from what I read use HF frequency (3-30 Mhz), whereas Voronezh-VP is VHF. Maybe there is something very sophisticated going on in those radars, the designers received a prize for their work on them. Time to research a bit, imagine a VHF radar on a ship with OTH capability...

    EDIT:

    These radars seem to be multiband, maybe they operate in VHF/UHF but also in lower frequencies in case of need, the size of the array does not seem to be a problem.

    According to Putin, the new plant is able to look "beyond the horizon" and can identify even the most inconspicuous target, in fractions of a second to detect missile launches of various types for hundreds and even thousands of kilometers from the Russian border.
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130606/941867488.html

    All of these early warning "radars" look over the horizon by design. They bounce their signal off the ionosphere and the surface. This way they outgoing signal
    can follow the curvature of the Earth for thousands of kilometers. The reflected signal does the same thing, bouncing between the surface and the ionosphere.

    With modern computer resources, it makes sense to design such "radars" with a set of frequency bands and doing "tomography" on the backscatter.
    In the 1950s and 1960s it was just the analog return signal that they could use. That is why there was a preference for a few frequencies.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:33 pm

    kvs wrote:All of these early warning "radars" look over the horizon by design.  They bounce their signal off the ionosphere and the surface.   This way they outgoing signal
    can follow the curvature of the Earth for thousands of kilometers.   The reflected signal does the same thing, bouncing between the surface and the ionosphere.

    With modern computer resources, it makes sense to design such "radars" with a set of frequency bands and doing "tomography" on the backscatter.  
    In the 1950s and 1960s it was just the analog return signal that they could use.   That is why there was a preference for a few frequencies.  
    I thought this effect required very long wavelengths to operate. But maybe modern processing can take advantage of both high and low band components of the return and get the same effect as an OTH-B?? When you say "tomography", you refer professing all the frequencies received right? Otherwise I cannot make sense of the term.

    User "SOC" was arguing in the Voronezh thread some years ago that this radar could not be a OTH-B (backscatter) radar but maybe OTH-SW (surface wave) radar that could be made smaller but had nevertheless the disadvantage of having shadow zones caused by mountains...

    Regarding the "Trojan Horse" strategy, I can understand such radar stations are critical for the defence of Russia (or rather make it impossible for NATO to mount an air campaign that is not going to be crushed from the onset) and it would be ideal for them to be crippled from inside of the country in the first place. How realistic it is getting this done is a different story though...
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    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:53 pm

    One radar alone is not the Problem (for NATO), it is the network of new radars that Russia has deployed in the last years:
    Woronesch, Conteyner, Resonanz, Podsolnukh, Nebo-M, Podlyot, Kasta-2 and so on.
    Some are mobile, others not.
    Some are used against high-flying objects (ballistic missiles, satellites)
    Some are used against low-flying objects (cruise missiles)
    Together they are very hard to overcome.
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:40 pm

    Hole wrote:One radar alone is not the Problem (for NATO), it is the network of new radars that Russia has deployed in the last years:
    Woronesch, Conteyner, Resonanz, Podsolnukh, Nebo-M, Podlyot, Kasta-2 and so on.
    Some are mobile, others not.
    Some are used against high-flying objects (ballistic missiles, satellites)
    Some are used against low-flying objects (cruise missiles)
    Together they are very hard to overcome.
    Of course, but these ones are more or less the backbone of that network and create the long range, all-around big picture where other radars can focus or overlap. Its loss would be very relevant, even when Russia has other assets, comparably more than any other country probably, to compensate in case they are supressed. Long range, high performance EW radars are necessarily few, not mobile and quite valuable for any country.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:07 am

    Woronesh could be mobile. On a ship.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:36 am

    Hole wrote:Woronesh could be mobile. On a ship.

    Wtf is woronesh? If you want to say the name, at least put a bit of effort into the spelling.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Hole wrote:Woronesh could be mobile. On a ship.

    Wtf is woronesh? If you want to say the name, at least put a bit of effort into the spelling.

    He's German, so a lot of times they replace the 'V' letter with the 'W' letter. He's talking about Voronezh.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:15 pm

    Because W and Sh are the right translation, only english speaking censored use V and z.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:49 pm

    so Russian radars can detect F-35?
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:39 am

    Well almost all radars could detect them... the question is at what distance and what reliability...

    Imagine you have a network of 30 or more radars scattered all around the place all connected up in a network... an IADS... and only one radar is scanning for targets, but all radars are listening for radar returns... with precise control of the signal being sent up and accurate time keeping at all the sites so they are all on the same time scale when the signal from the emitting radar hits the F-35 in flight and the surface of the F-35 scatters the signal in all directions except the direction the signal came from... most of those other 29 radar will get signals from the primary radar from the F-35 as well as emissions directly from that radar... the radar that sends the signal might get a very very weak radar return itself but basic triangulation will tell you where the F-35 actually is, so now instead of a general wide area scan you can now direct 30 radar at the location of that F-35 and direct fine precise tracking beams at it that would be much much harder to hide from and the air defence network will be alerted to the presence and location of that F-35, now if it is operating at lower altitudes... which it most probably will because it doesn't supercruise so would get little advantage to flying high... any Pantsir system that detects it optically can engage it in total radar silence... the F-35 will detect the attack but what can it do... its DIRCMs system can't blind a Pantsir missile because it is not IR guided... the F-35 pilot will likely be left with the choice to die or eject...

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