Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5514
    Points : 5665
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:16 pm

    Isos wrote:Many little antennas on that thing which suggests it's an ELINT/EW detector. I don't think it's a radar.

    The way the small antennas are put makes me think it is use to find a radar emmission by compring the power of the signal so that it can find the source. Just like RWR in fighters.
    Definitely ELINT/SIGNIT, you see antennas but not faces of radar arrays. ELINT/SIGINT dedicated vehicles allows them to detect PGM's like cruise missiles without giving away their presence like radar, and are exponentially more difficult to defeat with anti-radiation missiles, as they don't really give off signals unless they are briefly communicating with their command posts. Modern ELINT/SIGINT is also incredibly efficient, as they can have detection range comparable to powerful radar vehicles but usually in a much smaller vehicle in comparison.  Seeing how large the mast is, it lends credibility to the idea that S-350's are in fact supplementary vehicles to the existing S-400 sets as opposed to being separate regimental entities. 

    ELINT/SIGINT are not completely fool-proof though, flying platforms for such niche roles are usually conducted by aircraft with either very large RCS (converted passenger planes) or clearly unique and distinct RCS (such as helicopters). Ground platforms for such roles are far less susceptible to detection, but all types of ELINT/SIGINT fail miserably to PGM's that have sufficient inertial guidance, which doesn't rely on external guidance to attack targets. Considering what was stated in the prior sentence, the inherent weakness to inertial guidance munitions makes them completely incapable of replacing conventional radars but rather a supplementary asset to work in conjunction towards them.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 5001
    Points : 4993
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:04 pm

    That could also be one of those passive radars that uses civilian signals to detect targets. Such German radar tracked an f-35 pretty easily.

    Ground ELINT are goid since they can detect airborne radars at high distances.

    Maybe it can detect military gps signals and know a target is nearby.

    But main radars are the two others on the picture. This thing seems to be an add-on in option.

    We will get more informations soon IMO.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23691
    Points : 24231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:20 am

    Any source about desert storm ?

    No.

    Just remembered at the time that reporters were asked not to release footage of US cruise missiles flying past the hotel in Bagdad they were staying in and that some footage reportedly included cruise missiles getting shot down.

    Many little antennas on that thing which suggests it's an ELINT/EW detector. I don't think it's a radar.

    Can't it be both?

    The SA-13 had a ranging only radar but also had all sorts of boxes for detecting emissions from incoming threats including height finding altimeters used on aircraft and missiles to fly low over terrain in any conditions. The other common systems like TOR and OSA also have sensors to detect emissions from incoming threats too.

    Seeing how large the mast is, it lends credibility to the idea that S-350's are in fact supplementary vehicles to the existing S-400 sets as opposed to being separate regimental entities.

    Considering they are using an entire vehicle... a full sized truck... do you not think it might be possible to mount both passive and active sensors to be raised up to detect low flying threats.... I mean what would be the point of having a passive sensor raised up to detect a low flying cruise missile coming in at 5m altitude 20km away... with no ability to point a tracking radar to generate a fire solution you might as well not know it is there...

    Ground ELINT are goid since they can detect airborne radars at high distances.

    But such radars are generally easy to detect even at ground level.... why bother with a mount that allows the antenna array to be raised up 15m or so?

    Maybe it can detect military gps signals and know a target is nearby.

    There are GPS satellites that emit a signal and GPS receivers that receive those signals... a GPS receiver can detect multiple signals from different satellites at one time to triangulate its own position in 3D space. The receiver does not emit any signal so nothing could detect it except by other means.

    But main radars are the two others on the picture. This thing seems to be an add-on in option.

    The S-400 has large search and tracking radars but can also use low level radar arrays that can be raised up... the new BUK system also seems to have a radar array that is raised several metres above the ground too for low flying threats...
    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7599
    Points : 7996
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:42 pm

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 9M96_MAKS-2017_2_05

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 9M96_MAKS-2017_2_21

    Almaz-Antey displayed the missiles at MAKS-2017 airshow. It said long-range 9M96E2-1 was designed to destroy modern manned and unmanned aerial vehicles. The weight in the transporter-launch container is 598 kg, warhead weight is 24 kg. The container is 5.608-meter long, 0.42-meter wide and 0.489-meter high. The hitting distance ranges from 2.5 to 120 km and 0.005 to 30 km in altitude. Maximum target speed is 4800 m/s.

    Long-range 9M96E2 also destroys various craft. The missile weighs 449 kg, the warhead weighs 24 kg. It is 5.35-meter long, 0.273-meter wide and the wingspan is 0.676 meters. The hitting distance ranges from 2.5 to 120 km and 0.005 to 30 km in altitude. Maximum target speed is 4800 m/s.

    Medium-range 9M96E was also displayed. It weighs 370 kg and the warhead - 24 kg. The missile is 4.522-meter long, has a diameter of 0.273 meters and a wingspan of 0.676 meters. The hitting distance ranges from 1.5 to 40 km and 0.005 to 20 km in altitude. Maximum target speed is 1000 m/s.

    Short-range 9M100E is designed to fight precision weapons, including antiship and antiradar missiles and other unmanned and manned aerial vehicles. It can also be fired at small-displacement surface ships. The missile weighs 140 kg and its warhead - 14 kg. The missile is 3.165-meter long with a diameter of 0.2 meters and a wingspan of 0.536 meters. The hitting distance ranges from 0.5 to 15 km and 0.005 to 8 km in altitude. Maximum target speed is 1000 m/s.

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/october-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6579-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-qualifies-poliment-redut-sam-against-air-surface-targets.html
    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7599
    Points : 7996
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:03 pm

    Technically the medium range 9M96E is capable of intercept target flying at 1000 m/sec ~ Mach 3 , So this should be capable of intercepting supersonic targets like aircraft or cruise missile like Onyx which flies at top speed of Mach 2.8.

    The longer variant 9M96E2 is capable of intercepting target flying at 4800 m/sec ~ Mach 14 , So this should intercept IRBM class of missile ( 3000-3500 km range ) and Hypersonic missile like Zircon flying at Mach 9.

    Although I am not sure if 9M96E2 can pull so many G's to intercept a hypersonic missile like Zircon because an interceptor need to pull in 4x times of G as the target it is trying to intercept.

    Only the longest variant 40N6 is advertised of capable of intercepting a HGV type target. Hopefully they can navalise the 40N6 sooner.
    thegopnik
    thegopnik

    Posts : 94
    Points : 100
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  thegopnik on Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:16 pm

    Austin wrote:, So this should intercept IRBM class of missile ( 3000-3500 km range ) and  Hypersonic missile like Zircon flying at Mach 9.

    Although I am not sure if 9M96E2 can pull so many G's to intercept a hypersonic missile like Zircon

    It has not been proven yet but scramjets have no history of being intercepted by ballistic missile defenses which also includes the ground versions. https://qr.ae/T6FP1u I have a above 20k view answer link that mentions why the Zircon is very difficult to hit. The S-500 I believe has said HGVs can be intercepted but scramjets are more difficult targets than that.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2668
    Points : 2666
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:02 pm

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 S-350_13
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23691
    Points : 24231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:25 am

    Interesting numbers, but to be clear... these will be the ranges for export model missiles, but they are easily good enough for their role of replacing the old S-300s, the first of which had missile ranges of 75km and then 90km for the earliest models from the 1970s.

    Being ARH they will likely be rather more expensive but also more accurate...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5514
    Points : 5665
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:04 am

    Hole wrote:S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 S-350_13

    Nice, 24x6 suggesting 24 vehicles (with 6 missiles each) per regiment, which gives you 144 missiles to engage mass PGM (mostly cruise missiles) attack, leaving S-300v4/S-400 to destroy.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 23691
    Points : 24231
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:16 am

    But we know each Vityaz vehicle carries 12 missiles so it will be 12 vehicles with 12 missiles each...
    franco
    franco

    Posts : 3313
    Points : 3345
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  franco on Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:16 am

    Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3834
    Points : 3920
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:08 pm

    franco wrote:Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.  

    There are 12 rows on the picture, even with a graphic depiction of a launch vehicle next to it. And each row has 12 missiles
    franco
    franco

    Posts : 3313
    Points : 3345
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  franco on Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.  

    There are 12 rows on the picture, even with a graphic depiction of a launch vehicle next to it. And each row has 12 missiles


    My response to this.

    "Nice, 24x6 suggesting 24 vehicles (with 6 missiles each) per regiment, which gives you 144 missiles to engage mass PGM (mostly cruise missiles) attack, leaving S-300v4/S-400 to destroy."
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 234
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  marcellogo on Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:04 pm

    franco wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.  

    There are 12 rows on the picture, even with a graphic depiction of a launch vehicle next to it. And each row has 12 missiles


    My response to this.

    "Nice, 24x6 suggesting 24 vehicles (with 6 missiles each) per regiment, which gives you 144 missiles to engage mass PGM (mostly cruise missiles) attack, leaving S-300v4/S-400 to destroy."

    ...launcher planes. Fixed.
    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7599
    Points : 7996
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:36 am

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1233708740513132544


    2 new systems seen here along with known #S350 equipment:
    96L6-TsP acquisition radar & 96L6-VP radiotechnical recon post.
    96L6-TsP(active component) & up to 3 96L6-VP(passive component) form the 96L6-AP active-passive radio location system


    To any one who can read russian any good information from interview in page 2

    https://vk.com/doc3547033_437050281?hash=0ba8091c89c8d6edea&dl=d208d3c17b5b2e70ff
    avatar
    Mindstorm

    Posts : 907
    Points : 1074
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:58 pm

    Austin wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1233708740513132544


    2 new systems seen here along with known #S350 equipment:
    96L6-TsP acquisition radar & 96L6-VP radiotechnical recon post.
    96L6-TsP(active component) & up to 3 96L6-VP(passive component) form the 96L6-AP active-passive radio location system


    To any one who can read russian any good information from interview in page 2

    https://vk.com/doc3547033_437050281?hash=0ba8091c89c8d6edea&dl=d208d3c17b5b2e70ff


    The system has two components : active 96Л6-ЦП post and up to three (for best position triangulation performance) passive 96Л6-ВП.

    The active component 96Л6-ЦП is a combined АФАР and ФАР radar (receiving element АФАР transmitting ФАР) that with the program "Атолл" will become АФАР also for the transmitting elements.

    The central idea was to create a system integrable in any divisional level Army or Aerospace force AD ,from "БУК" «БУК-М3» to 300ПМ, С-350, and С-400 with the capability to provide on remote tracking data useful for engagement without the intervention of the search radars of those systems. This has been validated since the beginning of the program in a test in 2012 involving the most challenging target ,an high speed ballistic one,

    The system in the opinion of the creator has not analogue abroad.


    Personal note: The capability of the system effectively allow to transform entire networked divisions of ther IAD, placed also at enormous distances, in "ambushing" elements capable not only to inflict horrendous losses with the initial salvo completed totally with data received on remote, but to become suddenly active and continue the elimination of the opposing air group when its EW and SEAD resources would have been already directed or used against the known active posts of 96Л6-АП installations (that would had at this time very likely already moved out leaving behind decoy emitters with the same characteristics at its place and the passive 96Л6-ЦП to triangulate EW elements or command and control aircraft or UAV to be engaged on remote).
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 234
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  marcellogo on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:05 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Austin wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1233708740513132544


    2 new systems seen here along with known #S350 equipment:
    96L6-TsP acquisition radar & 96L6-VP radiotechnical recon post.
    96L6-TsP(active component) & up to 3 96L6-VP(passive component) form the 96L6-AP active-passive radio location system


    To any one who can read russian any good information from interview in page 2

    https://vk.com/doc3547033_437050281?hash=0ba8091c89c8d6edea&dl=d208d3c17b5b2e70ff


    The system has two components : active 96Л6-ЦП post and up to three (for best position triangulation performance) passive 96Л6-ВП.

    The active component 96Л6-ЦП is a combined АФАР and ФАР radar (receiving element АФАР transmitting ФАР) that with the program "Атолл" will become АФАР also for the transmitting elements.

    The central idea was to create a system integrable in any divisional level Army or Aerospace force AD ,from "БУК" «БУК-М3» to 300ПМ, С-350, and С-400 with the capability to provide on remote tracking data useful for engagement without the intervention of the search radars of those systems. This has been validated since the beginning of the program in a test in 2012 involving the most challenging target ,an high speed ballistic one,

    The system in the opinion of the creator has not analogue abroad.


    Personal note: The capability of the system effectively allow to transform entire networked divisions of ther IAD, placed also at enormous distances, in "ambushing" elements capable not only to inflict horrendous losses with the initial salvo completed totally with data received on remote, but to become suddenly active and continue the elimination of the opposing air group when its EW and SEAD resources would have been already directed or used against the known active posts of 96Л6-АП installations (that would had at this time very likely already moved out leaving behind decoy emitters with the same characteristics at its place and the passive 96Л6-ЦП to triangulate EW elements or command and control aircraft or UAV to be engaged on remote).


    Such a multi-static apparel has also a definite efficacy against stealth planes. In practical term, a normal i.e. active radar send a beam toward a dark background and expect the return signal, VLO targets cut down, deviate &/or absorb such return signal so to not be visible against the background.
    Passive antennas sense directly the radar beam, not the return one so it is like they are looking toward a illuminated background, if a plane pass trough such a background no matter if a conventional or a Stealth one it would by sensed as a shadow over it and not through echo.
    Its precise location and tracking will took more time, as it is performed through an inverse SAR mode but given that they work through sensing the more energetic direct beam and not the return echo it will however have a way longer maximum range.
    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7599
    Points : 7996
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:18 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Austin wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/GuyPlopsky/status/1233708740513132544


    2 new systems seen here along with known #S350 equipment:
    96L6-TsP acquisition radar & 96L6-VP radiotechnical recon post.
    96L6-TsP(active component) & up to 3 96L6-VP(passive component) form the 96L6-AP active-passive radio location system


    To any one who can read russian any good information from interview in page 2

    https://vk.com/doc3547033_437050281?hash=0ba8091c89c8d6edea&dl=d208d3c17b5b2e70ff


    The system has two components : active 96Л6-ЦП post and up to three (for best position triangulation performance) passive 96Л6-ВП.

    The active component 96Л6-ЦП is a combined АФАР and ФАР radar (receiving element АФАР transmitting ФАР) that with the program "Атолл" will become АФАР also for the transmitting elements.

    The central idea was to create a system integrable in any divisional level Army or Aerospace force AD ,from "БУК" «БУК-М3» to 300ПМ, С-350, and С-400 with the capability to provide on remote tracking data useful for engagement without the intervention of the search radars of those systems. This has been validated since the beginning of the program in a test in 2012 involving the most challenging target ,an high speed ballistic one,

    The system in the opinion of the creator has not analogue abroad.


    Personal note: The capability of the system effectively allow to transform entire networked divisions of ther IAD, placed also at enormous distances, in "ambushing" elements capable not only to inflict horrendous losses with the initial salvo completed totally with data received on remote, but to become suddenly active and continue the elimination of the opposing air group when its EW and SEAD resources would have been already directed or used against the known active posts of 96Л6-АП installations (that would had at this time very likely already moved out leaving behind decoy emitters with the same characteristics at its place and the passive 96Л6-ЦП to triangulate EW elements or command and control aircraft or UAV to be engaged on remote).

    Thanks Mindstorm.

    From what I read is 96Л6-ЦП radar has both PESA and AESA elements.

    The PESA element is used for tracking slower targets like aircraft and cruise missile while AESA is used to track faster targets like BM.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3834
    Points : 3920
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:36 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    franco wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.  

    There are 12 rows on the picture, even with a graphic depiction of a launch vehicle next to it. And each row has 12 missiles


    My response to this.

    "Nice, 24x6 suggesting 24 vehicles (with 6 missiles each) per regiment, which gives you 144 missiles to engage mass PGM (mostly cruise missiles) attack, leaving S-300v4/S-400 to destroy."

    ...launcher planes. Fixed.

    The launcher planes will stay out of range

    Unless of course the air defense systems are not detected in advance
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 234
    Points : 240
    Join date : 2012-08-02

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  marcellogo on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:45 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    franco wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suggest that the picture represents one vehicle with 2 rows of 6 missiles each... same total of missiles.  

    There are 12 rows on the picture, even with a graphic depiction of a launch vehicle next to it. And each row has 12 missiles


    My response to this.

    "Nice, 24x6 suggesting 24 vehicles (with 6 missiles each) per regiment, which gives you 144 missiles to engage mass PGM (mostly cruise missiles) attack, leaving S-300v4/S-400 to destroy."

    ...launcher planes. Fixed.

    The launcher planes will stay out of range

    Unless of course the air defense systems are not detected in advance

    Even the fact that launcher planes would need to use long range missiles instead of gliding bombs in order to not being targeted by AD system is enough to drastically impair their own effectiveness.

    When I talked about mass cruise missile attacks, I was however referring to heavy ones launched by Destroyers and Submarines not air launched ones.

    Sponsored content

    S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System - Page 14 Empty Re: S-350 "Vityaz" SAM System

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:00 am