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    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:13 am

    You are wrong. On the gorshkov, there is no enough deapth to allow bigger, or should I say longer, missile inside te redut VLS. That's why UKSK are mounted higher on the deck and closer to mid-ship where there is more deapth inside the ship.

    Since the begining they knew very well the redut launcher would be limited to smaller missiles only.

    That will also be a huge issue for implementing UKSK-M as it will need to carry the longest missiles in their inventory so they will be very limited to where they can place it on the ships. Especially for smaller frigates and corvettes. Uksk and redut had more flexibility as the second one is smaller and could go where uksk couldn't.

    You are not understanding what I am saying.

    The Redut system is a SAM launcher for S-350 and S-400 missiles and it is the same across the different sized ships.

    The only reason the hatch covers for them are 1m square is so that the old Rif and Rif-M and therefore also the new big missiles of S-400 with 250km and 400km flight range could be loaded in to them.

    On smaller boats they might not have the depth to load those big missiles, so what are they going to do?

    Create a special Redut launcher that only takes small missiles that is totally different from the Redut fitted to bigger vessels that is not compatible in any way shape or form, or are they going to develop a shallow depth Redut that is otherwise the same as the ones of the bigger vessels.

    I would suggest the latter makes the most sense... the current long range SAMs for the Russian Navy at the moment is the Rif and Rif-M which are very old model S-300PMU missiles and currently the 9M96 in the two sizes and the 9M100 missiles are so far the only missiles they have for Redut. They are expanding that to include the new S-400 large missiles with a 250km and 400km range but I rather doubt they would fit them to anything smaller than a Frigate at best simply because a ship that is smaller wont have the air search radar range to detect targets at such distances.

    But if they are not going to put big missiles on small ships why standardise the tubes to the big missiles... and the key word there is standardise.

    The Redut launchers on smaller boats might never carry the big SAMs because they might not fit them that deep in the hull... 9M96 missiles are about 4.8m long while S-300 and the big S-400 missiles are about 7.5m long.

    The point is that the redut launcher is designed to fit on all their new and upgraded ships and to take their entire range of new missiles... and if the 7.5m long S-300 Rif missiles wont fit then the UKSK-M system wont fit either because it will need to carry rather bigger cruise and ballistic missiles as well as likely the S-500 system as well.

    So if the smaller boats have Redut then why have a 1 square metre launch area under each hatch when 9M96 missiles fit 0.47m tubes, and for that matter the other missile they carry... the 9M100 has been confirmed to fit four into each 0.47m 9M96 tube.

    If the 9M100 fits four to a 9M96 tube, then why not put four 9M96 tubes in each Redut tube because the space is there that is why the 9M96 was designed to be the size it is... so each launch space on a land based S-300 or S-400 could carry four of the smaller missiles.

    What eventually happened is that they decided to go for a whole separate system called S-350 but that does not change the size and shaping design of these missiles.

    A land based 12 tube launcher on each S-350 TEL can hold 12 9M96 missiles because the tubes are 0.47m across and are 9M96 launch tubes.

    The Redut sea based vertical launch system is designed to carry Rif and replacement missiles at sea... the land based S-300 is called V for the Army, P for the Air Force, and the sea based system is called F, so the Redut system is designed to carry the S-300F and the S-350F and the S-400F... its main failing will probably be that it wont be able to fit the S-500F, so the UKSK-M will be needed.

    But the UKSK-M would make no sense if it can only carry one missile per tube so even it will likely carry 4 9M96 missiles or 16 9M100 missiles per tube... due to its length perhaps being 10-12 metres it might even allow stacking of missiles.

    That will also be a huge issue for implementing UKSK-M as it will need to carry the longest missiles in their inventory so they will be very limited to where they can place it on the ships. Especially for smaller frigates and corvettes. Uksk and redut had more flexibility as the second one is smaller and could go where uksk couldn't.

    Without multi missile packing a UKSK-M launch tube makes no sense, and neither does the redut.

    If you think for a second that the Redut system on a small ship does not have the depth for larger missiles, but the tube and hatch size is dictated by the size of the biggest missile it can potentially take, which on larger vessels would be the S-400 for the moment but could be bigger with the S-500, then you either throw standardisation out the door and split the Redut tubes by a quarter to make each hatch a single hatch for a 0.47m square S-350 9M96 and redesign it with four times more hatches and hatch mechanisms, or you leave it the way it is and confuse the western experts who will assume the tube capacity is a quarter of what it will actually normally carry and a further quarter less that it actually could carry (with 9M100 missiles).

    The vast majority of air defence needs can be met with the Redut system with 5-15km range 9M100 missiles for CIWS defence, and with 60km and 150km 9M96 missiles. Very occasionally a target will present itself further away and they have said they have two other missiles developed for the Redut (which is a naval system that could carry 1m square missile tubes unlike the land based S-350 which has 9M96 diameter tubes) and they mentioned those bigger missiles had a range of 250km and 400km... now as the S-500 has a range of 600km this then sounds like the standard and long range S-400 big missiles... which suggests Redut can carry the big missiles.

    It would be inefficient to design it for big missiles but only load small missiles in it... especially one 0.47m square missiles in a 1 sq metre tube under a 1 sq metre hatch.

    For small boats it wont matter much they can have shallow Redut that can only carry the smaller 9M96 and 9M100 missiles, but for really big vessels they will want all UKSK-M launchers so they can have big SAMs including S-500... but they will still want small SAMs too.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:16 am

    That's your personal opinion Garry. I've seen nowhere that redut can hold anything other than 9m96 and the smaller quad packed one. IMO it's a failed VLS and it is not a standerdized VLS. That's why it would have beeb a better VLS with more tubes adaptated to tge size of 9m96 and not 1m2 but hold no bigger missiles than something that has a diameter of 35 cm.

    Uksk-m is suppose to be able to hold all the missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:35 am

    The naval SAM system is pretty much unified with the land based systems...

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201704241052925186-air-defense-systems/

    And now that they are making bigger ships the needs of the Poliment-Redut move from protecting the ship the missiles are on (ie 9M100 CIWS and 9M96 60km and 150km range missiles) to much longer ranged missiles to protect the group of surface ships operating together based on S-400 and S-500.

    Now do you think they will develop a new Poliment-Redut system for these bigger missiles or will they simply use the full capacity of space underneath each existing Redut hatch and just mount them on bigger ships with more depth for longer missiles?

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201703121051499457-russia-advanced-guided-missile/

    I mean I could be making all this stuff up because clearly I was wrong about their wanting multirole modular vessels... I mean taking the extra time to get a complicated multi function system like the Gorshkov Frigate right to then basically scale it up to make it a destroyer at 7K ton and a cruiser at 20K ton was probably just a lucky guess right?

    If you understand the terms multi role, universal cruise missile launcher (UKSK), and modular, and what such things actually mean to a design and warship family of vessels then it is pretty obvious.

    Looking forward to the same collective western revelation when more types of armata appear rather than just the tank they think it is.

    Uksk-m is suppose to be able to hold all the missiles.

    UKSK-M wont fit on frigates or Corvettes unless you put submarine sails on them and mount the UKSK-M launcher in the sail like old Golf class SSBKs did...

    Equally a Redut system only able to fit 9M96 sized missiles and smaller is fine for small ships that only need to worry about defending themselves.

    The same system can be fitted to much bigger vessels to allow bigger missiles to be fitted to protect the group of ships the larger ship is operating with.

    Most of the time 150km is plenty of range for smaller ships... only bigger ships would carry radar or aircraft with the radar range to use 400km range SAMs anyway.

    Of course keep in mind that a Gorshkov frigate could operate a Ka-52K with an AESA nose mounted radar that could detect targets several hundreds of kms away... especially an MPA like a Poseidon, that could be shot down at extended ranges by a ship based SAM...
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:53 am

    The first S-350 Vityaz air defense system was handed over to the Ministry of Defense

    The ceremony was held at the Kapustin Yar training ground in the Astrakhan region


    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 11 52945810
    (Stock footage)


    MOSCOW, December 23. / TASS /. The Russian military received the first set of anti-aircraft missile system S-350 Vityaz. This is stated in a press release by the Almaz-Antey Concern, distributed on Monday.

    Almaz-Antey Concern East Kazakhstan Joint-Stock Company transferred to the Russian Ministry of Defense the first set of S-350 Vityaz anti-aircraft missile system (SAM). The ceremony was held the day before on the territory of the Kapustin Yar training ground in the Astrakhan region, "the report said.

    As specified in the concern, during the transfer to the military department, the equipment was displayed at the training ground, where "overflights were carried out with escort of real air targets." Acceptance tests were successful.


    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7402055

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 pm

    In English:

    https://tass.com/defense/1102327
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 pm

    This launcher can be integrated into S-400. It already has the ability to use the 9m96 missiles. Add one one launcher for every s-400 to increase its survivability against overwhelming attacks.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:37 pm

    True, but their priority will be to mass produce it to replace all the old model S-300 systems still around the place... and then they will likely start replacing the upgraded PMU1 and PMU2 models too I suspect.
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    Post  Azi on Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:49 pm

    Isos wrote:This launcher can be integrated into S-400. It already has the ability to use the 9m96 missiles. Add one one launcher for every s-400 to increase its survivability against overwhelming attacks.
    Em yes...possible! But they have Pantsir in addition to S-400, integrated in a network. So best to replace older systems, like Garry wrote.
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    Post  medo on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:56 pm

    Excellent news. Now we have to wait for the first S-500 to be delivered.


    Azi wrote:Em yes...possible! But they have Pantsir in addition to S-400, integrated in a network. So best to replace older systems, like Garry wrote.

    Of course and they will also get S-500 in the near future and Pantsir-SM. They will all be integrated in one structure. Anyway, KBP will have to produce a lot of Pantsir batteries to protect all those units.
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    Post  dino00 on Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:05 pm

    Russian Aerospace Forces will receive 12 divisions of S-350 anti-aircraft systems in 2021-2027

    Head of the Military Academy of Aerospace Defense Zhukova Vladimir Lyaporov said that the entry into service of this complex will provide an increase in the efficiency of the fight against cruise missiles twice

    "The acceptance of the first S-350 anti-aircraft missile system for training combat crews of rearmament regiments is being completed at the training center of the East Kazakhstan Academy of Defense. In total, from 2021 to 2027, 12 divisions will be put into service in five anti-aircraft missile regiments," Lyaporov said .

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7437653
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    Post  Azi on Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:49 pm

    dino00 wrote:Russian Aerospace Forces will receive 12 divisions of S-350 anti-aircraft systems in 2021-2027

    Head of the Military Academy of Aerospace Defense Zhukova Vladimir Lyaporov said that the entry into service of this complex will provide an increase in the efficiency of the fight against cruise missiles twice

    "The acceptance of the first S-350 anti-aircraft missile system for training combat crews of rearmament regiments is being completed at the training center of the East Kazakhstan Academy of Defense. In total, from 2021 to 2027, 12 divisions will be put into service in five anti-aircraft missile regiments," Lyaporov said .

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7437653
    Twelve divisions? 12 divisions in 6 years??? Suspect

    This is really huge, if true!!! thumbsup
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:39 pm


    How many launchers is one division anyway? I can never figure that out...


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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:30 pm

    Isn´t division the russian term for a western battery?
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    Post  medo on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:57 pm

    Division in artillery and division in infantry is the same in english language, but not in size. Division in artillery, which in slavic is called divizijon, is the battalion in infantry and is formed with few batteries or companies in infantry. Division in infantry or in slavic divizija, is formed with few brigades. Air defense use the same names of units as artillery, so division is actually a battalion. 1 division of S-350 have 8 TEL vehicles, 2 radar completes, 1 CP vehicle and support vehicles.
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    Post  franco on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:59 pm

    4 to 8 TEL's per division. Not very much when the original plan was for 38 divisions.
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    Post  medo on Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 pm

    At first they will most probably produce 1 regiment (2 divisions) of S-350 per year, similar as with S-400 and with time production rate will increase. I don't know, how many regiments will Russian MoD order, but for sure no less than S-400.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:40 am

    Also keep in mind that this is the Aerospace forces order... they will likely just be replacing all their S-300 batteries which probably are not that many because they are a well funded branch of the Russian military.

    The Russian Air Force will likely want some too and they will likely have rather more units with S-300s to be replaced, and of course the Russian Navy will want large numbers of missiles for their new and upgraded ships too.

    The Russian Army uses BUK M3 so it probably wont buy any but other organisations might buy some like Strategic Rocket forces to defend silos and mobile protection for truck mounted ICBMs and other important strategic locations.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:Also keep in mind that this is the Aerospace forces order... they will likely just be replacing all their S-300 batteries which probably are not that many because they are a well funded branch of the Russian military.

    The Russian Air Force will likely want some too and they will likely have rather more units with S-300s to be replaced, and of course the Russian Navy will want large numbers of missiles for their new and upgraded ships too.

    The Russian Army uses BUK M3 so it probably wont buy any but other organisations might buy some like Strategic Rocket forces to defend silos and mobile protection for truck mounted ICBMs and other important strategic locations.

    Russian Aerospace Forces is the renamed Russian Air Force
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    Post  marcellogo on Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:50 pm

    dino00 wrote:Russian Aerospace Forces will receive 12 divisions of S-350 anti-aircraft systems in 2021-2027

    Head of the Military Academy of Aerospace Defense Zhukova Vladimir Lyaporov said that the entry into service of this complex will provide an increase in the efficiency of the fight against cruise missiles twice

    "The acceptance of the first S-350 anti-aircraft missile system for training combat crews of rearmament regiments is being completed at the training center of the East Kazakhstan Academy of Defense. In total, from 2021 to 2027, 12 divisions will be put into service in five anti-aircraft missile regiments," Lyaporov said .

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/7437653

    Given that you all have already discussed about the productions numbers I would concentrate myself on the other IMHO relevant aspect of the post i.e. the ...entry into service of this complex will provide an increase in the efficiency of the fight against cruise missiles twice. part.
    We have here a consistent hint about what role the S-350E is supposed to fit into the AD complex and what are its own targets of choice.

    While S-300/400 are long range system intended to cope primarly with planes and balistic missiles S-350E is intended instead to contrast primarly coordinated waves of long range cruise missiles like Tomawhak and Scalp naval as the ones that were sent over Damascus.
    Altought both S-300, Buk and Pantsir proved perfectly capable to down those missiles they were simply overhelmed by the sheer number of them coming all in the same moment on an extended area.
    Larger systems have not enough weapons ready  while Pantsir have not the range needed to cover a whole city.

    So there is a gap to be dealt with and the S-350 (together with Pantsir SM) with a larger number of missiles ready for launcher, all with ARH guidance so not to be overhelmed by simultaneous arrival and a range that, still being inferior to the larger SAM, are still enough to cover a big city
    while being able to carry short range missiles for self protection is one of the answer to the actual and prospective stand off weapons the West count on in order to overcome Russian air defences.
    It actually is also a perfect way to cope with another category of weapons in which the US have invested heavily i.e. glide bombs like Diamondback and SDB.
    In this case longer range missiles carried by the system will engage directly the launcher while the smaller ones will cope with bombs itself.
    So in this case being a gap filler is not a disadvantage at all, right the contrary instead.

    Same obviously applies with the other systems actually in development, like Pantsir SM ( the same menaces + loitering munitions) and Derivatsya and Morfei centered instead agains small and micro UAVs.
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    Post  Azi on Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:49 am

    Azi wrote:
    Twelve divisions? 12 divisions in 6 years??? Suspect

    This is really huge, if true!!! thumbsup
    Of course..western divison is not the same like russian division! lol! Fail! pwnd

    But it's still good Wink And like Garry wrote...maybe other orders will show up Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:57 am

    After the obsolete S-300s are replaced then they will likely start to order systems to fill other gaps in capability.

    As pointed out these missiles are optimised for cruise missile interception and to be clear the old model S-300s these weapons are replacing were not that great against such threats... effective range for aircraft being 75-90km depending on the model of S-300, these missiles were first in service in the late 1970s and early 80s... so it is well worth replacing them.

    Boosting defences in other areas can be the next focus which should lead to more orders and of course these missiles can also be fielded with S-400 batteries so in actual fact the number of S-350 batteries being bought is not an accurate indicator of the number of missiles they will have on hand... we have seen photos of S-400 batteries with quad launchers taking the place of a tube on an S-400 launcher so adding x number of S-350 batteries is not the whole story... right now an S-350 launcher can carry up to 12 missiles of the 9M96 type, but the S-400 quad missile launcher could in theory carry 16... effectively making an S-400 launcher into a S-350 launcher with room for either another four missiles or 16 missiles if you go for 9M100 missiles instead, or a single large 250km or 400km range large S-400 missile per launcher...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:17 am


    Russian Aerospace Forces is the renamed Russian Air Force

    I find it all confusing... before they had the AF split into bits like transport and strategic long range aviation, naval aviation, frontal aviation and the PVO air defence forces, but then PVO were part of but also separate from the Air Force, but then they merged the space forces and the air force so does that mean it is all now one force or does it now have an extra space related division, or has the space component joined the PVO...
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    Post  franco on Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Russian Aerospace Forces is the renamed Russian Air Force

    I find it all confusing... before they had the AF split into bits like transport and strategic long range aviation, naval aviation, frontal aviation and the PVO air defence forces, but then PVO were part of but also separate from the Air Force, but then they merged the space forces and the air force so does that mean it is all now one force or does it now have an extra space related division, or has the space component joined the PVO...

    Russian Aerospace Forces comprises 3 commands:

    - Air Force
    - Air Defense
    - Space


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    Post  Viktor on Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:30 pm

    Russian layered air-defense system will become with each passing layer denser from top tier 400km at distance till at 0m decoy Smile

    Russian troops test-fire latest S-350 anti-aircraft missile system
    https://tass.com/defense/1108421


    with 96 missiles ready to shoot targets per system and 32 missiles fired at max the number rapidly multiplies with each added division.

    For eight division that means 768 missiles ready to fire and 256 missiles fired at its targets at the same moment. (Katyusha of air defense)

    I can not see any smaller air force able to push forward advance and than exit the battlefield without its head being chopped off. For instance Poland would easily loose all its airforce

    within just a few attempts to storm targets defended with these systems and would have to either not use them or restrict their use or shoot from the distance risking opposing

    interceptor run. Even when restricting their use for only shooting from the distance it risk entering SAM traps as has no ability to cover enemy air space in real time with surveillance

    thus it could enter SAM trap without even knowing it and knowing

    it requires constant surveillance and small number of countries of the World has such capability and such capability can be neutralized with 400km range missiles forcing enemy

    curiosity into dark.
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    Post  william.boutros on Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:12 pm

    Viktor wrote:Russian layered air-defense system will become with each passing layer denser from top tier 400km at distance till at 0m decoy Smile

    Russian troops test-fire latest S-350 anti-aircraft missile system
    https://tass.com/defense/1108421


    with 96 missiles ready to shoot targets per system and 32 missiles fired at max the number rapidly multiplies with each added division.

    For eight division that means 768 missiles ready to fire and 256 missiles fired at its targets at the same moment. (Katyusha of air defense)

    I can not see any smaller air force able to push forward advance and than exit the battlefield without its head being chopped off. For instance Poland would easily loose all its airforce

    within just a few attempts to storm targets defended with these systems and would have to either not use them or restrict their use or shoot from the distance risking opposing

    interceptor run. Even when restricting their use for only shooting from the distance it risk entering SAM traps as has no ability to cover enemy air space in real time with surveillance

    thus it could enter SAM trap without even knowing it and knowing

    it requires constant surveillance and small number of countries of the World has such capability and such capability can be neutralized with 400 km range missiles forcing enemy

    curiosity into dark.


    You don't need to throw your air force inside the air defence zone. You can overwhelm with missiles or target with stealth missiles and even jam and use decoys and anti radar missiles. The US already demonstrated that 105 cruise missiles can really overwhelm defenses and do the job.

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