Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1049
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  dino00 on Sun May 12, 2019 11:20 pm

    Hunting with a change of places: anti-aircraft missile systems S-350 will travel around Siberia
    Air defense systems "Vityaz" master new tactics

    Aleksey Ramm
    Bogdan Stepovoy

    The divisions of the 24th Mobile ZRBr deployed in the capital of Khakassia, Abakan, will become real “nomads” who can be transferred to any region in the east of the country

    https://iz.ru/876166/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/okhota-s-peremenoi-mest-zenitno-raketnye-kompleksy-s-350-budut-kolesit-po-sibiri
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1984
    Points : 1974
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  hoom on Mon May 13, 2019 2:30 am

    Austin wrote:Disclosed the characteristics of the S-350 "Vityaz"

    https://iz.ru/868801/2019-04-17/raskryty-kharakteristiki-s-350-vitiaz


    Is there any information what kind of guidance does 9M100 uses is it command guidance or ARH homing ?
    That article is severely munged.
    9M100 is a 15km IR homing missile.
    9M96 has 2 versions 60 & 120km, both with active (possibly AESA) seeker.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 6:53 am

    Yes, the 9M100 is supposed to be an interservice weapon, so for the Army it will be used with the S-350 system as a lock on after launch short range guided self defence missile using IIR seeker technology and a datalink. For the Air Force it will be a short range AAM that can be launched from inside and internal weapon bay as used on a stealth fighter or indeed a conventional or stealth bomber that uses an internal weapon bay because its lock on after launch design means it does not need to have a lock before it can be launched. Note the AIM-9X needs to be extended out of the internal weapon bay of the F-22 to get a lock on the target before it can be launched... not very stealthy...

    And the Navy will use the missile as a CIWS type weapon where its lock on after launch capability means it can be stored vertically in low RCS bins and launched in any direction at enormous numbers of incoming threats in a fire and forget mode.

    There have been photos of a 9M100 missile with a radar nosecone that might be an alternative command or ARH guided model... we will need to wait for more details, but it is known to be part of the S-350 land based system with four 9M100 missiles per 9M96 tube so each vehicle can carry up to 12 9M96 missiles of 50km or 150km range, or four 9M100 missiles for each 9M96 tube for up to 48 missiles per launch vehicle.

    The naval Redut system shown so far has had a large fairing for each launch tube when launching 9M96 missiles where each tube could launch a much larger S-300 missile. They have stated Redut can carry 400km range missiles which suggests full sized S-400 or S-300 missiles could be loaded too, so each redut hatch cover could hold a 400km range S-400 or four 150km or 50km range 9M96 or 16 9M100 missiles... assuming only a single layer of missiles is used.
    avatar
    Arrow

    Posts : 427
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Arrow on Mon May 13, 2019 8:36 am

    9M96 has 2 versions 60 & 120km, both with active (possibly AESA) seeker. wrote:

    Some suorces said that 9M96 has a 150 km range ? I did not read that ARES radar in 9M96.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2019 8:46 am

    I believe when they were first revealed the figures were 40km and 120km for range for the two missiles, but they changed them to 50km or 60km and 150km or 160km for the new land models, so I figure 50km and 150km is about right with improved rocket fuels and lighter smaller more compact electronics.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1049
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  dino00 on Mon May 13, 2019 9:35 pm


    Tests of S-350 Vityaz-PVO missiles completed - Putin


    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=508043&lang=RU
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1984
    Points : 1974
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  hoom on Tue May 14, 2019 2:58 am

    Some suorces said that 9M96 has a 150 km range ? I did not read that ARES radar in 9M96.
    Yeah there are a bunch of different ranges variously quoted (also shorter numbers come from Export version data-sheets at Industry shows), point is one version of 9M96 is in the 40-60km range, the other in longer 120-150km.

    I'd thought I saw a pic of an AESA head but seems to be not necessarily for 9M96, it should be at least PESA.

    There have been photos of a 9M100 missile with a radar nosecone that might be an alternative command or ARH guided model
    Thats the one that looked nearly exactly like a TOR missile wasn't it? (implied older version might have been abandoned)
    Personally I have my doubts about an IR seeker for a point-defense missile, seems like there would be quite a few modern threats that'd be hard for an IR seeker to find eg modern low-speed small drones & un-powered precision glide bombs.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 14, 2019 9:09 am

    Actually I would say the opposite... an imaging IR sensor is ideal for finding low RCS targets... we have seen video from the Farnborough airshow showing the B-2 and F-22 and F-35 clearly visible in IR frequencies, so a sophisticated IIR sensor with a digital database of three D models of objects would pretty much allow the missile to determine what it was looking at in terms of aircraft or missiles on its own would be perfect... a datalink used to change targets if necessary of course...

    All matter gives off IR radiation except when cooled to absolute zero so any bomb or missile or tiny electric powered UAV is visible and able to be targeted by this sensor.... and over short ranges it would be totally all weather.

    They have shown a rather small ARH seeker for some time now... I think it was an AGAT sensor... It was on that Aussie website by Carlos Kopp, there was a lot of speculation about what it was developed for... perhaps for upgrades for OSA or TOR...

    Personally I think a QWIP chip based IIR sensor is the cheapest and most effective option for missile guidance for such weapons as ARH is not cheap... effective but not cheap.

    IIR and ARH could be totally fire and forget, while backup missiles with command guidance could also be an option to allow enormous numbers of missiles to be used without being too expensive, but I suspect a QWIP based IIR sensor, which is just like a CCD CMOS chip that can detect light in IR and UV as well as visible light would be an enormous step forward in terms of cost of production and performance...
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5263
    Points : 5416
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:15 pm

    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2268
    Points : 2266
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:26 pm

    The truck has been modified.

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 001716
    First version, without crane for reloading.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8307
    Points : 8391
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:59 pm

    Hole wrote:The truck has been modified.

    http://i.servimg.com/u/f10/19/89/13/22/001716.jpg

    First version, without crane for reloading.


    What's the point of using reload vehicles in the first place? You still need a truck of identical size.

    Just use the extra trucks to build more launch vehicles, reload them at the depot.


    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 5263
    Points : 5416
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The truck has been modified.

    http://i.servimg.com/u/f10/19/89/13/22/001716.jpg

    First version, without crane for reloading.


    What's the point of using reload vehicles in the first place? You still need a truck of identical size.

    Just use the extra trucks to build more launch vehicles, reload them at the depot.



    I cant say for sure how they'll operate, but the creator (Almaz Antey) made the Buk-3's loader vehicle capable of launching missiles, and because Vityaz is also a medium range SAM and is also designed by the same scientific/engineering bureau, it may or may not have the same ability.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3896
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The truck has been modified.

    http://i.servimg.com/u/f10/19/89/13/22/001716.jpg

    First version, without crane for reloading.


    What's the point of using reload vehicles in the first place? You still need a truck of identical size.

    Just use the extra trucks to build more launch vehicles, reload them at the depot.



    So that they don't need to go back to depot. Missiles can be brought by trucks, and reloader truck has the crane and the crew for reloading the other launchers.

    IMO it is cheaper to have simple reloader. If they were also launchers they would need extra tools like communication and computers for using missiles. Then all the launchers would also need a crane.

    For big systems like s-300/400 puting a crane to the launchers would be too much and not practical. Buks are too small. S- 350 has a nice size for having the launcher and the crane. The reload is also easier because they can just take one set of many missile at once contrary to s-400 or buk which needs to reload missile after missiles.


    If they did something like that it would be the fastest reload system of any air defence system. 1 min to get ride of empty tubes and 1 min to reload new one.

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1049
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:00 pm

    Shoigu announced the completion of the development of the latest VRS S-350 "Vityaz"

    https://iz.ru/890709/2019-06-19/shoigu-zaiavil-o-zavershenii-razrabotki-noveishei-zrs-s-350-vitiaz
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2268
    Points : 2266
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Hole on Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:08 pm

    The transloader for the S-400 can reload two missile at the same time.

    That is the transloader for the Buk-M3:
    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 000332
    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 000420
    It travels between the supplies unit and the launch vehicles. The vehicle for the S-350 will look similar. Together with the crane on the launch vehicle the reloading time will be reduced considerably.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3896
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 am

    Even with 2 missiles at once it will take some time to reload all the s-400 launchers.

    About the buk I was talking about the M1 and M2 versions. M3 has its missile that comes in packs like s-350. Totally different than for m1 and m2.

    I guess they would also need to be able to load single missile in those boxes of 12 cells in case they didn't fire all the 12.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:30 am

    Depends on mobility too... at a fixed site like an airbase the S-350 could have a building full of missiles, remember S-350 is a replacement for old model S-300s for the Aerospace defence force... the Army might have to drive deep in to enemy territory to operate so it will need to be able to transport supplies to forward deployed units.

    The Army version of S-350 is BUK-M3, and the BUK family had both standard launchers with four ready to fire missiles, and transporters/loaders that carried two layers of four missiles... but lacked the tracking radar to guide its own missiles.

    In effect the transloaders were an extra ammo magazine of ready to fire missiles that could be used by the launcher it was paired with AFAIK... the transloaders are called launcher loaders so I assume they launch the 8 missiles they carry and the TEL they are supporting guides the missiles...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:31 am

    I guess they would also need to be able to load single missile in those boxes of 12 cells in case they didn't fire all the 12.

    Each of the cells can take one of three types of missiles so they would need to be able to load them individually... one tube at a time... with either the big 9M96 or the small 9M96 or the 9M100 in packs of four.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3896
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:41 pm

    This is what redut VLS should have been instead of the 8 cells that are way too big for 9M96 and unable to hold 48N6. Gordhkov would be holding 48 missiles right now while Steregoutchy could have 24.

    From army 2019.

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 D99gbr10
    Viktor
    Viktor

    Posts : 5678
    Points : 6311
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 38
    Location : Croatia

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:42 pm

    Russian PVO always had multiple prepared PVO positions like the one you have described still for the reasons GarryB mentioned you also have reloads to give shooting untis multiple shots which increases mobility and endurance on the battlefield. So by combining both Russia has increased complexity i.e. number of options in the changing environment. Reloads have the shorter time to reload than when prepared positions would not exist still you can use air or rivers or roads to deliver or altogether rapidly redeploy to another position.
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1008
    Points : 1049
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:43 pm

    The video on the link shows S-350 with 60km range

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/army-2019_news_russia_online_show_daily_media_partner/index.php

    Expected more.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:23 am

    The S-350 has three missiles it uses, two versions of the 9M96 and a smaller missile called 9M100.

    The 9M96 is designed to fit four tubes into the space of one S-300 missile, but on the S-350 all the tubes are the size of the 9M96.

    This means that the S-350 can carry 12 9M96 missiles in its 12 tubes, or it can carry 48 9M100 missiles in its 12 tubes (4 missiles in each tube).

    That video was talking about the middle sized missile of the S-350 system which I describe above as having a range of 50km.

    The bigger 9M96 missile has a range of 150km, though if the smaller missile has a range of 60km perhaps the bigger missile is a 160km range weapon.

    When first revealed the smaller missile was described as having a range of 40km and the larger missile 120km.

    Note these missiles are intended to replace early model S-300s in the Russian inventory with ranges of about 90km so these new missiles are much more capable.

    This is what redut VLS should have been instead of the 8 cells that are way too big for 9M96 and unable to hold 48N6. Gordhkov would be holding 48 missiles right now while Steregoutchy could have 24.

    Redut is a ship based system... these land based S-350 systems will likely be based with S-400 systems to fill out numbers so they don't need the bigger missiles.

    The naval systems need to be able to use the full sized S-400 missiles in the 250km and 400km flight range sizes. Each tube can either take a 400km or 250km range S-400 missile or 4 x S-350 missile of either 60km or 160km range, or 16 missiles of the 9M100 type that are short range CIWS type missiles.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3896
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:31 am

    The naval systems need to be able to use the full sized S-400 missiles in the 250km and 400km flight range sizes. Each tube can either take a 400km or 250km range S-400 missile or 4 x S-350 missile of either 60km or 160km range, or 16 missiles of the 9M100 type that are short range CIWS type missiles.

    That will be the case with UKSK-M. I was talking about the redut launcher already produced which can hold only 9m96.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22048
    Points : 22592
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:04 pm

    That will be the case with UKSK-M. I was talking about the redut launcher already produced which can hold only 9m96.

    Do you think it is an accident that the Redut system is sized to allow much bigger missiles to be loaded in to it?

    The Redut system was intended for all Russian ships, just like the UKSK launcher was supposed to replace all the primary weapon missile launchers, like those for Granit, and Vulkan, and Onyx, and also Moskit and Metel and Calibr.

    The Redut system was supposed to carry all the SAMs from the S-300 and S-400 and S-350 families.

    For the smaller vessels carrying the larger SAMs made little sense but being a standard missile system of course they are going to have it anyway.

    Ironically the Rif only had a range of about 75km, and the improved Rif-M extended that to only 120km, so the long range 9M96 actually has a better range performance than the old S-300s used at sea anyway, so it would not make sense to make the redut tubes 1m square so it could carry old Rif and Rif-M missiles simply because they are totally inferior to the bigger 9M96 missile in terms of range and altitude and speed and performance.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3906
    Points : 3896
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:04 pm

    You are wrong. On the gorshkov, there is no enough deapth to allow bigger, or should I say longer, missile inside te redut VLS. That's why UKSK are mounted higher on the deck and closer to mid-ship where there is more deapth inside the ship.

    Since the begining they knew very well the redut launcher would be limited to smaller missiles only.

    That will also be a huge issue for implementing UKSK-M as it will need to carry the longest missiles in their inventory so they will be very limited to where they can place it on the ships. Especially for smaller frigates and corvettes. Uksk and redut had more flexibility as the second one is smaller and could go where uksk couldn't.

    Sponsored content

    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System - Page 10 Empty Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:08 am