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    Vityaz SAM System

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:09 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.
    As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.
    I am assuming that you are referring to the article at the following link which you had provided earlier.

    http://www.almaz-antey.ru/about/press/production/1574.html

    My knowledge of Russian language is extremely poor; so I have used Yandex to translate the relevant passage which I have reproduced in the following.

    "This is achieved through the use of WRU (ЗРС, зенитная ракетная система--Morpheus Eberhardt) first developed in our country fundamentally new information tools - multifunctional radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and radar accurate tracking of targets and anti-aircraft guided missiles."

    All I am saying is that for only one or two 50N6Ye radars to provide coverage over a 360 degree sector some degree of mechanical scanning would be required. Two 50N6Ye radars can implement this in many different ways. Also in my opinion this doesn't, in any manner, contradict the above passage. One fact that the article is implying is that 50N6Ye can "optimally" perform the search, track (with hard lock-ons), and missile guidance. In reality it can performs other roles also that weren't mentioned.

    It should be kept in mind that, unlike the case for 50N6Ye, in general, when an ESA or any other type of sensor is said to be capable of performing search, it doesn't mean that its capabilities are "optimal" or even "acceptable" in performing that function.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:48 am

    SOC wrote:
    This is why doing math at 3AM is best left to people designated Not Me respekt  This is actually pretty close to the example I give in class when covering Newton's Laws, explaining how F=ma is actually oversimplified in the real world.  I explain the idea of a rocket with decreasing mass, and then you can see the lightbulbs go on when I tell them that their car does the same thing.

    That being said, it's going to be more complicated for a SAM.  To make this as accurate as possible you also need to factor in the various drag effects of the airframe shape, the control surfaces, and drag created by the manipulation of control fins, any body lift generated, etc.  This will all amount to a small decrease in what you'd calculate above, but it will manifest itself differently based on the individual missile characteristics.  

    Hence why the most ridiculous accelerators are conical with very, very large high impulse boosters.  And why I have taken to using various programs to figure this crap out for me a lot faster angel 
    I did this... try figuring out maneuverability (Theoritically at least) for 5V28 missiles of S-200..quite long..with some readings on Fleeman's and Nielsen's book.. finally got a figure of 17G of possible maneuverability at high altitude to kill SR-71's.

    But then though theoritically possible.. i'm still awaits for better data to improve accuracy.

    Now i have several spreadsheets..each detailing one missile...it's kinda long and tedious calculations (especially i'm not a programmer..which would mean excel is my hope) But it's kinda happy if i managed to get at least a reasonable result Very Happy

    Now i'm looking stuff about grid fins and how to calculate its effect to maneuverability.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:54 am

    With respect to the 50N6Ye search mode, there seems to be some info at

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/sites/default/files/gallery/s.gurov/13/09/01/img_2216.jpg

    According to my extremely limited understanding of the Russian language, the spec sheet seems to be indicating that in the search/TWS mode the mechanical rotational speed of the array is 40 RPM. As I mentioned previously this mode would be somewhat similar to that of the 64N6 family, for example.

    By the way, as an aside, a missile system that incorporates a missile like one from the 9M96 family, with a guidance system that incorporates ARH+INS+datalink, can actually be satisfactorily supported, in many circumstances, with just a radar with TWS (track while scan-only) capabilities; so a capability for achieving a hard lock would not even be needed. After all S-25, S-75, and S-125 can all do this even for the variants of their missiles that were "command-only" (i.e., the variants of their missiles with no homing heads).

    To sum up this possibility, the 50N6Ye would be rotating mechanically over a 360 degree or smaller sector, providing search+IFF+TWS+datalink support to the missiles. It should be mentioned that this method is within the possibilities of S-350Ye, but it doesn't capitalize on most of the system's other capabilities. It should be kept in mind that S-350Ye would have TVM/SAGG capabilities which have to be supported by 50N6Ye.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:18 pm

    - Testing done by 2014
    - Mass production in 2015
    - Mass deliveries 2016
    - all according to schedule Very Happy 

    Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016
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    medo

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:53 pm

    Viktor wrote:- Testing done by 2014
    - Mass production in 2015
    - Mass deliveries 2016
    - all according to schedule Very Happy 

    Russian Army to Receive Vityaz Air Defense Systems in 2016
    Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:58 am

    medo wrote:Excellent. Any more informations about Morphei? It is all quiet about it.
    Probably they have some problems so no info yet. I was hopping to catch some info about it on MAKS-2013 but nothing.

    Anyway Morfei is scheduled for 2015 so there is still plenty of time to finished it. I think Morfei is much more demanding system to construct and finish all development and research work

    than most other. I think that even if Almaz-Antej prolongs work on the Morfei system it does not matter since it is conceptually excellent fit in its existing AD network.


    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:41 pm

    this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa? Laughing Shocked Embarassed tongue 
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:37 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa? Laughing Shocked Embarassed tongue 
    You are right, like new Arleigh Burkes with PESA, it is useless.

    What an amateur analysis lol.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:34 am

    this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa?
    Vityaz is a huge step up from S-300 which it is replacing with more missiles per vehicle (12 vs 4), better range (60 and 150km range missiles vs 90km for the early model S-300), with more missiles in the air against more targets at once to make overwhelming the system much harder... what is not to like?

    The fact that they haven't spent extra money on AESA radars instead of PESA just shows they are not gold plating their systems.

    Eventually, when the AESA modules are cheaper and in mass production they probably will develop an AESA radar antenna for Vityaz, but PESA offers most of the advantages of electronic scanning without the costs of AESA... which means they can afford to put rather more into service much faster without spending too much money on them right now.


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    Vann7

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:45 pm

    NickM wrote: Ok . So what do you think is the peak velocity of the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles because it can't be more than the Patriot ?
    I think you are just another victim of US propaganda . Remember that US sells weapons.. and they need to advertise
    everything being better than any other technology in the world or any time in future. It was the same with the F-117..
    Most Americans believed it was 'undetectable' and movies were made to showcase its invincibility . Until it was shot down in serbia by a very old soviet sam..and that was the last time it flew it was canceled after that.

    So americans have been mislead by its own government ,to think that no other cultures can do anything better than them.
    But reality is that we are all humans.. and (IF education is the same) there is nothing that stop anyone in a foreign nation to have an engineer or scientist as capable is not better than in the west. The only advantage that US had over other countries (at least in the past).. was MONEY.. that they could hire the best international scientist to make technology for them. Just like the atomic Bombs. that was created by a group of the best international scientist money could buy.. but the project leader an american(Robert Oppenheimer) took credit for it. when in reality it was an italian Enrico Fermi ,the soul of the project and the real father of the atomic bomb..who created the first nuclear reactor in the world . Tesla and Newton none of them were americans either. one serbian the other german jew but they migrated to US for its economy .There are more than 1,000 Russians working for INTEL.. in case you didnt knew. There is also lots of Indians too. The discovery of 'stealth technology' the way to reduce radar signature was the work of a russian scientist who worked for US after collpase of Soviet Union.. And its discoveries allowed americans to create stealth planes first before of anyone . That said.. a scientist is a scientist and its nationality is irrelevant. What matters is its education and the funding and support he receive for its investigation. Cost a lot of money to design things.. specially for defense industry.

    Here is american secret weapon in technology..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

    Since Russia lacks the economy to produce/maintain a huge navy and airforce like US have for many decades . Russia have been focused instead ,in improving their defensive weapons and its nuclear deterrence . This is the reason why Russia is far ahead of NATO  in rocket propulsion and tactical missiles. While US was throwing away their money in irrelevant space flights to plant a flag in the moon ,space stations ,building a huge navy and airforce ,middle east wars..and Foreign Aid.. ie.. busy creating an Empire..Russia was quietly working in the research of defensive weapons and modernizing their military technology

    and to answer your question.. lol

    When it comes to Sam defenses..but also  cruise missiles and ballistic missiles IMO.. US and NATO are at least
    2 or even 3 decades behind Russia. Since they have supersonic missiles since the soviet union times in early 80's and NATO have none ..Now Russia is testing with India *Hypersonic* cruise missiles with mach 5.0 speeds
    and NATO have yet to release a single supersonic mach 1.0 cruise missile.

    Some numbers for you..
    Sams defenses missiles speed and others

    Air defense systems
    US
    Patriots pac-3/Sm-2...   mach 4-5.0.  (main NATO defense system) range 160-190km
       
    RIM-162 ESSM      mach 4.0  50km
    US aegis SM-3   ~mach 8.0  (limited only to ballistic Non maneuverable missiles in space)

    Russian
    S-300s  ....     mach 7.0.     range 200km
    S-400s......     mach 12.0.   range 400km
    S-500s ....      mach 20.0    range 600km    (still in test)
    Russian A-135 mach ---      super classified.. main Russian defense system against nuclear ICBM.
                                        rare videos on internet ,they appear to be at least 5x faster than Iskanders in
                                        acceleration. an like 2-3x times of topol.. so their speed should be around mach 30 or more.

    offensive weapons..
    Russian Iskanders-m  mach 9.0  ~500km-800km range  
    Russian topol M..      mach 24.0  11,000 km range  




    Cruise missiles speed..
    US Tomahawks /harpoon ... mach 0.8  (NATO main land attack and anti-ship missiles)  ~2500km /   120km  

    Russia Kalibr/Oniks     ...   ~mach 3.0                                                                 ~2600km/    300km/700km  
    Russia kh-31              .... ~mach 4.0 (launched from airplanes anti-ship)                  ~200km range
    Russia/India brahmos2   ...~ mach 5.0 (first world hypersonic cruise missiles)              300km

    If you want to know what US Navy thinks of Russian Kalibr antiship cruise missiles.. read here.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home


    In comparison notice how slow subsonic missiles are..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzvFZnew41U

    here is the latest NATO cruise missile..[NSM] made by norway..
    better than US harpoon with 300km range but still subsonic speed.
    www.military.com/video/guided-missiles/antiship-missiles/jet-fighter-chases-naval-strike-missile/1187576322001/

    Russian pilots part of their training is defeat  cruise missiles by chasing them and using IR missiles.
    In the other hand you can't chase a super sonic mach 3 cruise missile... with a combat jet

    To your original question..As you can see..' it can be more than Patriots'..of course it can.
    US or NATO don't have the technology exclusive. Is available for all. What USA is for Computers and electronics..
    Russia is for rocket propulsion and missiles. But contrary to US that have the help of all NATO countries
    and Israel to develop their hardware.. Russia almost have to do it all alone.

    here is a video that shows an F-22 being defeated by a light and much cheaper combat jet..
    http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE

    Modern Russian Sukhois will have a much easier time than a french Rafale planes since they have
    3d vector engines..and are much more maneuverable than any other modern plane.

    Moral of the story ,Each country have their own advantages
    in their own things. And in military hardware Russia is not only competitive with NATO in most things but at times even surpassing them. Which is good ,competition is what drives innovation.

    a good report that illustrate Russian progress with military technology for missiles
    but also combat planes .

    http://youtu.be/sNRMO70Hw0s


    dionis

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  dionis on Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:40 am

    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:28 am

    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    Harpoons problem is not so much its range, but its relative low speed.

    It is not a bad missile... it is just not a great one.


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    dionis

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  dionis on Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:35 am

    GarryB wrote:
    As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    Harpoons problem is not so much its range, but its relative low speed.

    It is not a bad missile... it is just not a great one.
    Yes sir, but it exists the for the same reasons that the Kh-35 does.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:25 am

    When the primary anti ship missile is Harpoon then you are fairly limited... especially with older model Harpoon.

    Tomahawks are no longer made in the anti ship version, so no...Harpoon and Kh-35 are not equivalent in that the Harpoon is the primary USN anti ship missile for surface, sub surface, and air launch, and also for export, while Russia has a range of other missiles for air launch anti ship attack including Klub, Kh-32, Kh-31, Yakhont/Onyx/Brahmos...


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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:56 pm

    dionis wrote:As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    What Harpoon variant do you mean dionis ?
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:27 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    dionis wrote:As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    What Harpoon variant do you mean dionis ?
    Probably air launched @ high altitude and supersonic speeds.

    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:28 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:this vytaz thing is a huge waste of resourses , 2016 and you have- pesa? Laughing Shocked Embarassed tongue 
    You are right, like new Arleigh Burkes with PESA, it is useless.

    What an amateur analysis lol.
    burkes radars are older! then vytaz which is not even is serial production..whatever...

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:53 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:
    dionis wrote:As I mentioned in another thread, Vann, there's Harpoon variants that offer 280KM range.
    What Harpoon variant do you mean dionis ?
    Probably air launched @ high altitude and supersonic speeds.
    TR1 i know perfectly what version it mean.......simply it has not given the necessary attention to the missile's dimensions and effective profile of flight in the attack.
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    Deep Throat

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Deep Throat on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:12 pm

    Viktor wrote:2. 2014 testing of S-350 Vityaz 
    Interesting . Why do they want to carry out more tests ?

    The South Korean version of S 350 called Cheongung (Iron Hawk) MR-SAM co-developed with  Almaz Design Bureau (among others) entered the series-production phase last year .
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:33 pm

    Deep Throat wrote:
    Viktor wrote:2. 2014 testing of S-350 Vityaz 
    Interesting . Why do they want to carry out more tests ?

    The South Korean version of S 350 called Cheongung (Iron Hawk) MR-SAM co-developed with  Almaz Design Bureau (among others) entered the series-production phase last year .
    Because no matter similar origin we are talking about very much two different systems. Even the missile is not the same and Russian one packs much greater punch.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:05 pm

    Everything is as planed ... nice. 

    New medium-range SAM "Hero" is scheduled to ship to the troops in 2015-2016
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    Deep Throat

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Deep Throat on Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:55 am

    Viktor wrote:Because no matter similar origin we are talking about very much two different systems.


    Almaz Antey had clarified that the South Korean version is based on the S 350 . Almaz developed three radar units for the KM-SAM .


    Viktor wrote:Even the missile is not the same
    Which missiles ? The short range ones or the long range ones ?

    Viktor wrote:Russian one packs much greater punch.
    For greater punch there is the S 500 or for that matter even the S 400 . The S 350 is basically designed to fill the gap between S 400 and S 500 . Eventually the idea is to replace all the S 400 with the S 500 .

    The S 500 by itself does have the potential to perform all the job that the S 350 is mandated to do . Though the idea is to complement the S 500 with the S 350 .

    The S 350 will in all likelihood be marketed as an export product . But in this space it will face competition not just from the Korean KM SAM but also from similar models being marketed by China and Turkey .
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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:21 am

    Almaz Antey had clarified that the South Korean version is based on the S 350 . Almaz developed three radar units for the KM-SAM .
    Except that the SK version was developed first from a missile designed for use with the S-400 system as a missile numbers multiplier in case of saturation attacks.

    The Vityaz is not so much for the land based forces a missile that can be loaded onto S-400 vehicles to boost ready to fire missile numbers when a large scale attack is anticipated. It is going to be a separate system... a smaller, lighter cheaper system that will provide numbers to replace older model S-300P family missiles rapidly.

    For greater punch there is the S 500 or for that matter even the S 400 . The S 350 is basically designed to fill the gap between S 400 and S 500 . Eventually the idea is to replace all the S 400 with the S 500 .
    No. S-500 is going to be a rather expensive way to shoot down drones. The S-500 will be a strategic SAM used to defend major structures like capitals and major cities and major ports and also main airfields from ballistic missile attack. It might be able to hit anything above the ground but an An-124 could also carry a 1 ton payload... you just wouldn't use it that way unless you absolutely had to.

    S-350 will replace old model S-300s and will be a numbers system that will likely replace all the old S-125s as well and it will be relatively cheap to mass produce. S-400 will be the next missile up and it will also be deployed widely though its cost will mean not so great numbers, while S-500 will be in certain areas only.

    The S 350 will in all likelihood be marketed as an export product . But in this space it will face competition not just from the Korean KM SAM but also from similar models being marketed by China and Turkey .
    When made available for export the S-350 will likely sell rather better than S-300 because it will be of better performance and cheaper relatively to buy today (or whenever it is sold). It will be the T-72 of SAMs in the sense that it will offer excellent bang for buck.

    It will likely be cheap enough to warrant replacement of old SAMs like SA-2 and SA-3 and SA-5 in service in many countries still because S-300 was the next choice but was too expensive.

    In many ways PESA radars are obvious and necessary until AESA modules are cheap and reliable.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:00 am

    Almaz Antey had clarified that the South Korean version is based on the S 350 . Almaz developed three radar units for the KM-SAM .
    Yes, Almaz Antej did a great chunk of work during KM-SAM  development and no matter Vityaz and KM-SAM have the same dad they are still two very different systems. 




    Deep Throat wrote:Which missiles ? The short range ones or the long range ones ?
    Any missiles. 



    9M96 series







    MK-SAM






    Now both missiles where design by Almaz-Antej yet you will notice different design principles and different layout. Also you will notice that 9M96 class (both small and long range ones)

    have much higher performance in altitude and range than MK-SAM. 


    Deep Throat wrote:For greater punch there is the S 500 or for that matter even the S 400 .
    I was reffering to S-350/KM-SAM where S-350 pack a much greater punch than KM-SAM.


    Deep Throat wrote:The S 350 is basically designed to fill the gap between S 400 and S 500 . Eventually the idea is to replace all the S 400 with the S 500 . 
    Nope. S-350 is designed to replace older versions of S-300 system that will be retired by 2015. S-350 by its capabilities is much below S-400 and if you want to look at situation from that angle than you would have hierarchy like this. S-500 -> S-400 -> S-300Favorit -> S-350 etc where S-350 has much lower capabilities than even S-300Favorit looking at its range and speed and all. But S-350 tier in hierarchy has its specific task to accomplish and therefore is not meant to compete S-400 and S-300Favorit. 

    Deep Throat wrote:The S 500 by itself does have the potential to perform all the job that the S 350 is mandated to do . Though the idea is to complement the S 500 with the S 350 . 
    Idea is to have enough radar systems in all wavelengths, ranges and altitude to have radar picture of all airspace and command centers that calculate threats, passing that information

    to numerous layers of air defence systems so NOTHING can pass by. russia 


    Deep Throat wrote:The S 350 will  in all likelihood be marketed as an export product . But in this space it will face competition not just from the Korean KM SAM but also from similar models being marketed by China and Turkey 
    S-350 has no competition. By its capabilities it surpasses all of them by large margin (even SAMP-T) and Russia as a country with most extensive experience in airdefense design can offer supplementary equpment that no one else can. 


    medo wrote:As I know, they already have 34 Pantsirs (10 + 12 + 12). With 6 more, there will be 40.
    I think you are right.
    40 Pancir-S1 is respectful number already.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:08 am

    Range is just one factor of missile , the other would be performance/Energy , kill probability against wide range of targets including high G manouvering ones , ability to deal with saturation attack , Autonomous Capability and last but not least Performance of Radar in hostile EW ECM/ECCM environment.

    Vityaz would surpass any S-300 model and could be even better under certain scenerio than S-400 in the above mentioned criteria.

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