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    Vityaz SAM System

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    xeno

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  xeno on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:53 pm

    10. It is active. It can be "over-the-horizon". It can intercept anti-ship missiles flying 10 meter above water 60km away instead of 18km.
    Read this news:
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?230425-SM-6-engages-first-over-the-horizon-targets-at-sea
    It is the future of Russian navy as well.
    This is an extremely important feature different from Rif-M(S-300 naval version )and 9M317(Shtil-1).
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:29 pm

    When you say active you mean active seeker head right?
    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.

    Also for anyone that knows, is the widespread use of active seekers in missiles the reason combined search and track radars are popping up everywhere now?

    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:32 pm

    Thanks Victor .

    TR1 combined Search/Track radar is popping up because I think miniaturization of electronics,processors,invention of phased array seeker needing lower power has made it possible for combine the function into one single radar.

    Althought ARH has good flexibility because its not liked to call it umblical cord of its mother radar on ground but ARH also has a narrow field of view and would be less resistant to jamming compared to the big radar on ground.

    The amount of power available onboard missile and aperture of radar would also make its range lower and FOV narrower.

    So there is plus and minus to having a ARH seeker , but for target OTH where your radar cannot see due to horizon limit ARH is the only all weather option.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:43 am

    Viktor wrote:Bastion Karpenko about Vityaz with specification and ton of pictures

    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-350%D0%B5_vityaz_maks_2013/




    Next, give the information to the prospectus, "The anti-aircraft missile system S-350E" Knight "presented GSKB" Almaz-Antey "at the MAKS-2013.

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-350E "Knight"

    PURPOSE
    ► Anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range S-350E is designed for the defense of administrative, industrial and military facilities from the massive strikes of current and future air threats.
    ► S-350E is able to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight - from extremely low to high altitudes.
    ► S-350E can operate autonomously, conducting independent military operations, as well as in the air-defense groups in the management of higher command posts.
    ► combat operation of S-350E is fully automatically. Combat crew prepares the AAMS to work and monitors the progress of hostilities.

    COMPOSITION
    ► Item command and control 50K6E
    ► Multifunction radar 50N6E (up to 2)
    ► Launchers 50P6E (up to 8 )with 12 anti-aircraft guided missiles, medium-range 9M96E2

    SPECIFICATIONS

    ► The maximum number of simultaneously targeted objectives:
    -aerodynamic-16
    - Ballistic -12
    ► The maximum number of simultaneously induced by anti-aircraft guided missiles 32
    ► Area defeat aerodynamic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of 1.5 / 60 km
    - the minimum / maximum height of 10m- / 30 km
    zone ► defeat ballistic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of -1.5 / s0 km
    - the minimum / maximum height -2/25 km
    ► Time to bring funds into the embattled from the march - 5 minutes
    ► combat crew-3 people

    MULTI RADAR 50N6E

    Multi-function radar is the primary communication tool of S-350E and working in circular and sectoral modes. Combat operation multifunction radar is completely indifferent operator automatically by remote control from the point of command and control.
    ► The maximum number of targets tracked in the mode of piste maintenance -100,
    ► Maximum number of tracked targets in a precise auto-tracking mode - 8.
    ► Max ¬ Mykh is accompanied by anti-aircraft missiles - 16
    ► Speed ​​azimuth - 40 rev / min
    ► The maximum distance to the command and control -2 km

    ITEM command and control 50K6E

    Item command and control is designed to manage multi-function radars and launchers. Item command and control provides the interface with the adjacent S-350E and the higher command post.
    ► The total number of tracked trails - 200.
    ► The maximum distance to the next command and control of S-350E - 15 km
    ► Maximum distance to a higher command post - 30 km

    LAUNCHER 50P6E

    The launcher is designed for the transportation, storage, automatic prelaunch and launch anti-aircraft guided missiles
    ► The number of anti-aircraft missiles on the launcher -12.
    ► The minimum interval between launches anti-aircraft missiles - 2
    ► Time of loading / unloading - 30 min.
    ► The maximum distance to the point of command and control - 2 km

    Anti-aircraft guided missile of 9M96E2

    ► Starting weight - 420 kg
    ► Average speed-900-1000 m / s
    ► Type of guidance - inertial with radio.
    ► Type-homing active radar
    ► type of warhead-high-explosive
    ► Warhead weight - 24 kg




    You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:




    Mindstorm

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:26 am



    Some hints for both the question of S-350E's (export version ...EXPORT) engagement range and or the the air-launched weapons presented at MAKS 2013 (B. Sweetman anyone? .....)


    http://www.janes.com/article/26451/maks-2013-russian-industry-unveils-new-sam-systems


    Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
    Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.

    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:22 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:56 am

    Austin wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

    Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).

    S-350E ? Please.....Laughing 

    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:40 am

    Yes the media tends to generalise the export variant is what will be with Russian Armed Forces.

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:05 am

    TheArmenian wrote:You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:
    Karpenko provided text below, google translator provided translation and I, I just copy-paste the thing here but tnx anyway Very Happy .

    Thing is that I finanly managed to see all text provided in prospect. Anyway it is interesting that max 9M96E2 range is not provided but "Area defeat". Wink 

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    mack8

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  mack8 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:19 pm

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:53 am

    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.
    To have a good chance of a kill you would need a platform with eyes on target to assure a kill, though a high flying AWACS like aircraft would be ideal as it would allow extended range view of the area around the naval group that could be used to engage multiple threats.

    I rather suspect inertial navigation to target area calculated before launch though the chance of midflight course updates should allow for use against a manouvering target with terminal guidance active radar homing.

    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?
    Yes, but the article is suggesting that the export version of S-350 will replace older S-300 systems in Russian Service... which is clearly unlikely.

    Not really new as often journalists will never mention Onyx, and will talk about Yakhont like it is the standard domestic AShM...

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.
    And often the domestic missile remains secret so they will talk about Brahmos and Yakhont as if Onyx is just a Yakhont or doesn't even exist.

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?
    There are likely two missiles in this system so 9M96D and 9M96D2 for domestic use and 9M96E and 9M96E2 for export...



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    mack8

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  mack8 on Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:25 am

    Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:32 am

    mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?
    PESA.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:01 am

    From MAKS-2013



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    NickM

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  NickM on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:23 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).
    The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:14 pm

    NickM wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).
    The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .
    Which Patriot you are talking about ? Against the ERINT it has equal performance.. and perhaps 9M96 family is superior by having more maneuverability (60 G) Vs the ERINT (50 G)

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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:32 pm

    There is something extremely interesting about Vityaz sytem - brutally to say at least Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 







    According to experts, the key factor determining the effectiveness of the S-350E is its ability to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight, from extremely low to greater heights in all weather conditions, day and night, in difficult noise conditions.
    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles.

    ALMAZ-ANTE LINK

    once again


    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles

    Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


    1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

    2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

    Implications on the battlefield are tremendous
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:05 pm

    Viktor wrote:

    This is achieved through the use of air defense missile systems developed for the first time in our country fundamentally new information tool - multifunction radar, which is able to simultaneously perform the functions of radar detection and accurate target tracking radar and anti-aircraft missiles
    Meaning this sytem will have two modes of operations fundamentally different.


    1. Search radar (1RL123 or any other in operational service or that will come) performs search function and alerts 50N6 radar which guides missiles to its targets.

    2. There is no search radar. Search function as well as firing function are performed simultaneously (with two 50N6 per battery rottating in a synchronizing mode)

    Implications on the battlefield are tremendous
    Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.

    That info however indicate that the 50N6 might operates in C-Band (5-8 Ghz) frequency..It's a compromise between search and tracking applications. I expect some clever time management method to balance between search and track processing.
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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  SOC on Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:30 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.
    It's not even exactly new in Russia. The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets. The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness. The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone. Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections. Far less reaction time for the target.

    NickM wrote:The S 350 still pales into insignificance when compared to the Patriot for the simple reason that Patriot has far better ACCELERATION than the S 350 .
    Don't let the fact that the S-300, S-400, and S-350 missiles have higher peak velocities get in your way or anything.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:01 am

    Viktor wrote:
    mack8 wrote:Not sure if i missed it, but is there any info whether the Vityaz radar is a PESA or AESA?
    PESA.
    Hybrid PESA isnt it ?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:48 am

    SOC wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Well multifunction approach is not new.. the MPQ-53 did that, the HQ-9 Battery also did same stuff.. combining search and track function in one platform.
    It's not even exactly new in Russia.  The 30N6 is fully capable of operating in a search mode and prosecuting targets.  The difference is that when you interface with a 36D6 or 64N6 you get much better situational awareness.  The HQ-9 is probably the same way, as it also employs off-board EW radars, including a new 64N6 clone.  Plus, the advantage to using off-board target acquisition sensors is that the engagement radar can stay out of lock-on mode until needed, remaining in search mode to provide midcourse corrections.  Far less reaction time for the target.
    - Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets. No MPQ-53, 30N6 or
    HQ-9 battery has such ability - not even close.

    - Certainly S-350 will have its dedicated search radar per battery but it remaines this uber waffe mode in case of need.
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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  SOC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:03 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.
    Correct, and most of the S-300/400 radars use space feeds. The one on the 30N6 is basically identical to this one, with the one on the 64N6 being a feedhorn assembly.

    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test. I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically. One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways. They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:19 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.
    The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:07 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    BTW looking at the videos of the radar for the Vityaz does anyone know what the small rear facing box on the base of the turning radar is?

    ie what is this:

    Fairing of the feed for the space-fed array.
    Actually this fairing incorporates two linearly polarized feed systems, with at least the receive monopulse feed system having multiple horns and the polarization for one of the feed systems being horizontal with the other being vertical. In addition to these feed systems, there are a polarization-sensitive reflector and a quarter-wave plate under the fairing. Together, these components form a transmit/receive feed system obviating the need for a conventional duplexer, while at the same time providing an extremely high performance level.

    You can read a more detailed description by David K Barton for the 30N6 family in

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Russian-SAM-Radars-DKB.html

    Caveat: I am not vouching, at all, for the Air Power Australia or the Microwave Journal.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:39 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The one doing the search would be mechanically rotating, similar to the 64N6 family's search mode.
    As stated in the article both are able to perform searching and shooting functions simultaneously.

    SOC wrote:
    Viktor wrote:- Thing is that now those functions are performed by two 50N6 simultaneously covering 360° searching for targets while guiding SAM on those targets.
    I'm not sure that passes the logic test.  I'd have to think about how this would work geometrically.  One radar cannot cover 180 degrees, the phased array cannot look directly sideways.  They'll have to rotate some to either side, which should be workable as long as they can keep targets in their FOVs.
    Or have sufficient rotation per minute Very Happy in order to feed up information to the missile.

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