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    Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

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    mack8

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  mack8 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:44 am

    At least for what we think it's the export version, the missiles seems to be 9M96E2, max. range 60 km according to the specs.

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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:15 am

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    GarryB

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:16 am

    At least for what we think it's the export version, the missiles seems to be 9M96E2, max. range 60 km according to the specs.
    Keep in mind that the domestic model will certainly have much greater range missiles, with the S-400 9M96 missiles being used in two versions with a 40km range and a 120km range.

    If they follow tradition then for export they might have models with half that range with a 20km and a 60km range model, which might mean they could perhaps just have the heavier missile for export and use full range versions for domestic use.

    Keep in mind that for export the Vityaz might be the primary long range SAM, but within the Russian Air Force it will be the system that fits between Pantsir-S1 and the S-400... it is a numbers missile that will replace pretty much all medium range missiles like the SA-3 and SA-2 and old model SA-10.


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    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:52 am

    So the radar we know is PESA for Vityaz (50N6E radar ) and its not AESA.

    Also what kind of BM can it engage , I mean the target speed ?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:50 am

    TR1 wrote:Stealing my thunder SOC.


    Range is very curious. Why would they curtail range so much even for an export product? We know 9m96 can reach out farther.
    TR1 - whats the exact translation.




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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:09 am

    Exactly what SOC said, the last one is crew is 3 people.

    Are those missile posters from MAKS?

    Because if so, interesting contradiction lol.
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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  SOC on Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:24 pm

    Those posters give a bit more detail with regard to the missile characteristics, such as mass. Either way it is an interesting contradiction. Were these found with Vityaz or are they advertising the 9M96's separately still, as S-300P upgrades?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:21 pm

    TR1 wrote:Exactly what SOC said, the last one is crew is 3 people.

    Are those missile posters from MAKS?

    Because if so, interesting contradiction lol.
    Yes the posters are from MAKS (found the pictures on chaotic external disk). Anyway now we have

    2 different things said for the same missile. 9M96E2 with 120km range and after 10 years or so of development range reduced by half to "mere" 60km.

    Only logical thing that could connect these contradictions is that the description of the missiles is different.

    MAKS poster on 9M96E2 clearly tells "target engagement zone" and thats why I asked exact translation of the other description of 9M96E2


    SOC wrote:Those posters give a bit more detail with regard to the missile characteristics, such as mass.  Either way it is an interesting contradiction.  Were these found with Vityaz or are they advertising the 9M96's separately still, as S-300P upgrades?

    Separate advertising in regard to S-300P upgrades. This poster is I think at least 10 years or so old.

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    medo

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  medo on Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:04 pm

    I think it is interesting contradiction, which could be also read between the lines. Domestic version will have 9M96E2 missiles with 120 km range, but export version will most probably have missiles from Buk-M3, which have similar range 70 km. I always think, export one will have 9M96E missiles with 40 km range. Maybe this missile have extended range to 60 km.
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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:20 am

    The question is... will foreign buyers be using Vityaz as a BUK or as an S-300 replacement.

    I suspect the former, which means having two different missiles is not so important so having the long range model with its range limited to 60km would likely make it the cheaper option as the model missile with its range increased from 40km to 60km would need the most powerful propellent they can produce and as many design improvements they could manage. I would think selling the larger model with reduced range would make rather more sense and keep the extended range models for yourself.

    The missile tubes seem to be very long if it is equipped only with the shorter lighter missiles...


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    Viktor

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    Nice pics of Vityaz!

    Post  Viktor on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:56 pm

    Mark on the missile "9M96D-something"



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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:57 pm

    Bastion Karpenko about Vityaz with specification and ton of pictures

    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-350%D0%B5_vityaz_maks_2013/




    Next, give the information to the prospectus, "The anti-aircraft missile system S-350E" Knight "presented GSKB" Almaz-Antey "at the MAKS-2013.

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-350E "Knight"

    PURPOSE
    ► Anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range S-350E is designed for the defense of administrative, industrial and military facilities from the massive strikes of current and future air threats.
    ► S-350E is able to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight - from extremely low to high altitudes.
    ► S-350E can operate autonomously, conducting independent military operations, as well as in the air-defense groups in the management of higher command posts.
    ► combat operation of S-350E is fully automatically. Combat crew prepares the AAMS to work and monitors the progress of hostilities.

    COMPOSITION
    ► Item command and control 50K6E
    ► Multifunction radar 50N6E (up to 2)
    ► Launchers 50P6E (up to 8 )with 12 anti-aircraft guided missiles, medium-range 9M96E2

    SPECIFICATIONS

    ► The maximum number of simultaneously targeted objectives:
    -aerodynamic-16
    - Ballistic -12
    ► The maximum number of simultaneously induced by anti-aircraft guided missiles 32
    ► Area defeat aerodynamic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of 1.5 / 60 km
    - the minimum / maximum height of 10m- / 30 km
    zone ► defeat ballistic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of -1.5 / s0 km
    - the minimum / maximum height -2/25 km
    ► Time to bring funds into the embattled from the march - 5 minutes
    ► combat crew-3 people

    MULTI RADAR 50N6E

    Multi-function radar is the primary communication tool of S-350E and working in circular and sectoral modes. Combat operation multifunction radar is completely indifferent operator automatically by remote control from the point of command and control.
    ► The maximum number of targets tracked in the mode of piste maintenance -100,
    ► Maximum number of tracked targets in a precise auto-tracking mode - 8.
    ► Max ¬ Mykh is accompanied by anti-aircraft missiles - 16
    ► Speed ​​azimuth - 40 rev / min
    ► The maximum distance to the command and control -2 km

    ITEM command and control 50K6E

    Item command and control is designed to manage multi-function radars and launchers. Item command and control provides the interface with the adjacent S-350E and the higher command post.
    ► The total number of tracked trails - 200.
    ► The maximum distance to the next command and control of S-350E - 15 km
    ► Maximum distance to a higher command post - 30 km

    LAUNCHER 50P6E

    The launcher is designed for the transportation, storage, automatic prelaunch and launch anti-aircraft guided missiles
    ► The number of anti-aircraft missiles on the launcher -12.
    ► The minimum interval between launches anti-aircraft missiles - 2
    ► Time of loading / unloading - 30 min.
    ► The maximum distance to the point of command and control - 2 km

    Anti-aircraft guided missile of 9M96E2

    ► Starting weight - 420 kg
    ► Average speed-900-1000 m / s
    ► Type of guidance - inertial with radio.
    ► Type-homing active radar
    ► type of warhead-high-explosive
    ► Warhead weight - 24 kg





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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:27 pm

    ^^ Great Pictures Smile

    What is the idea of developing S-350E from a SAM that is part of S-400 system and using the same PESA type radar , duplicating what already exists ?

    What does Vityaz bring to the table that S-400 doesnt and the purpose of Vityaz system ?
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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:49 am

    Austin wrote:^^ Great Pictures Smile

    What is the idea of developing S-350E from a SAM that is part of S-400 system
    I think that Russia will use S-400 with 400km and 250km range missiles only because where ever S-400 goes there will be  Vityaz to provide two more protective layers with 9M96 class

    missiles. Countries that can not afford to spend much money on airdefense but still want to have credible air defense network might find interesting solution where S-400 combines

    48N6 class with 250km range with 9M96 (40 and 120) km range versions all in one package.

    Austin wrote:and using the same PESA type radar , duplicating what already exists ?
    Other than its not AESA we know nothing about Vityaz radar. Russians praise it very highly and are extremely satisfied with it so there is no reason why we should not be either.

    On the other hand US ships use PESA as well as Europeans when construction their air defense network and I dont see anyone complaining that for instance radar systems of the USN

    AEGIS system are not AESA but PESA.



    Austin wrote:What does Vityaz bring to the table that S-400 doesnt and the purpose of Vityaz system ?
    Vityaz has few more years of testing before we see its final configuration and its final specifications.

    It is said to enter service in 2015 and that 30 batteries will be made by 2020. Do you know what that means given specification we now know for the export version of this system.

    1. 30 batteries can guide

    - on aerodynamic targets 960 missiles on 480 targets and still have missiles for two more shooting
    - on ballistic targets 720 missiles on 360 targets and still have missiles for three more shooting

    For instance Syria has aprox. 150 different air defense batteries. All those batteries (5 times more than 30 Vityaz batteries Russia will buy up to 2020) do not have as nearly target guidance channels as 30 Vityaz batteries. Imagine ability to repel close to 500 targets with 1000 missiles with 30 batteries Very Happy Shocked Very Happy . Talk about saturation. Twisted Evil 

    2. Deployment time 5 min (Russian standard - best in the world)
    3. Automatization (three man crew)
    4. Reloading (half an hour) - much better than with S-300
    5. 3 times more missiles than S-300
    6. I believe range of 9M96 missiles are at least double the range of missiles that 9M96 class is set to replace
    7. System is build with low design risk and low production cost but has great modernization potential and as we saw what happened to S-300 system during years we can only scrab
       our hands and observe with satisfaction. That also means Vityaz will be produced on time and on budget and after 2020 we can expect to see its first modernizations.
       Still in its capabilities it represents quantum leap in comparison with the systems it is set to replace (older S-300 systems, S-125 and S-75)
    8. Excellent low level coverage
    9. Excellent capability to integrate in forming independant air defense network (all S-350Es), integration with lower and higher tier command posts significantly increasing its efficiency in  
       the process.
    10. ...

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  xeno on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:53 am

    10. It is active. It can be "over-the-horizon". It can intercept anti-ship missiles flying 10 meter above water 60km away instead of 18km.
    Read this news:
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?230425-SM-6-engages-first-over-the-horizon-targets-at-sea
    It is the future of Russian navy as well.
    This is an extremely important feature different from Rif-M(S-300 naval version )and 9M317(Shtil-1).
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:29 am

    When you say active you mean active seeker head right?
    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.

    Also for anyone that knows, is the widespread use of active seekers in missiles the reason combined search and track radars are popping up everywhere now?

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:32 am

    Thanks Victor .

    TR1 combined Search/Track radar is popping up because I think miniaturization of electronics,processors,invention of phased array seeker needing lower power has made it possible for combine the function into one single radar.

    Althought ARH has good flexibility because its not liked to call it umblical cord of its mother radar on ground but ARH also has a narrow field of view and would be less resistant to jamming compared to the big radar on ground.

    The amount of power available onboard missile and aperture of radar would also make its range lower and FOV narrower.

    So there is plus and minus to having a ARH seeker , but for target OTH where your radar cannot see due to horizon limit ARH is the only all weather option.
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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:43 am

    Viktor wrote:Bastion Karpenko about Vityaz with specification and ton of pictures

    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-350%D0%B5_vityaz_maks_2013/




    Next, give the information to the prospectus, "The anti-aircraft missile system S-350E" Knight "presented GSKB" Almaz-Antey "at the MAKS-2013.

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-350E "Knight"

    PURPOSE
    ► Anti-aircraft missile system of medium-range S-350E is designed for the defense of administrative, industrial and military facilities from the massive strikes of current and future air threats.
    ► S-350E is able to simultaneously reflect the impacts of different types of air attack from any direction (round) at all altitudes of their flight - from extremely low to high altitudes.
    ► S-350E can operate autonomously, conducting independent military operations, as well as in the air-defense groups in the management of higher command posts.
    ► combat operation of S-350E is fully automatically. Combat crew prepares the AAMS to work and monitors the progress of hostilities.

    COMPOSITION
    ► Item command and control 50K6E
    ► Multifunction radar 50N6E (up to 2)
    ► Launchers 50P6E (up to 8 )with 12 anti-aircraft guided missiles, medium-range 9M96E2

    SPECIFICATIONS

    ► The maximum number of simultaneously targeted objectives:
    -aerodynamic-16
    - Ballistic -12
    ► The maximum number of simultaneously induced by anti-aircraft guided missiles 32
    ► Area defeat aerodynamic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of 1.5 / 60 km
    - the minimum / maximum height of 10m- / 30 km
    zone ► defeat ballistic purposes:
    - the minimum / maximum range of -1.5 / s0 km
    - the minimum / maximum height -2/25 km
    ► Time to bring funds into the embattled from the march - 5 minutes
    ► combat crew-3 people

    MULTI RADAR 50N6E

    Multi-function radar is the primary communication tool of S-350E and working in circular and sectoral modes. Combat operation multifunction radar is completely indifferent operator automatically by remote control from the point of command and control.
    ► The maximum number of targets tracked in the mode of piste maintenance -100,
    ► Maximum number of tracked targets in a precise auto-tracking mode - 8.
    ► Max ¬ Mykh is accompanied by anti-aircraft missiles - 16
    ► Speed ​​azimuth - 40 rev / min
    ► The maximum distance to the command and control -2 km

    ITEM command and control 50K6E

    Item command and control is designed to manage multi-function radars and launchers. Item command and control provides the interface with the adjacent S-350E and the higher command post.
    ► The total number of tracked trails - 200.
    ► The maximum distance to the next command and control of S-350E - 15 km
    ► Maximum distance to a higher command post - 30 km

    LAUNCHER 50P6E

    The launcher is designed for the transportation, storage, automatic prelaunch and launch anti-aircraft guided missiles
    ► The number of anti-aircraft missiles on the launcher -12.
    ► The minimum interval between launches anti-aircraft missiles - 2
    ► Time of loading / unloading - 30 min.
    ► The maximum distance to the point of command and control - 2 km

    Anti-aircraft guided missile of 9M96E2

    ► Starting weight - 420 kg
    ► Average speed-900-1000 m / s
    ► Type of guidance - inertial with radio.
    ► Type-homing active radar
    ► type of warhead-high-explosive
    ► Warhead weight - 24 kg




    You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:




    Mindstorm

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:26 pm



    Some hints for both the question of S-350E's (export version ...EXPORT) engagement range and or the the air-launched weapons presented at MAKS 2013 (B. Sweetman anyone? .....)


    http://www.janes.com/article/26451/maks-2013-russian-industry-unveils-new-sam-systems


    Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
    Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:22 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:56 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:Naturally also in this article the confusion reign supreme :

    "The S-350E is scheduled for firing trials in the fourth quarter of 2013 and potentially to enter service with the Russian armed forces in 2014. The S-350E is planned to replace the older model S-300 (SA-10 'Grumble') SAM systems currently in service..."
     Laughing Laughing 

    Level of military journalism, in the latest years , is falling very quickly toward amateurish level.
    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?

    Obviously S-350 Vityaz will replace S-300P in ПВО and it , in comparison, will offer also enormously increased performances (range of engagement included).

    S-350E ? Please.....Laughing 

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:40 pm

    Yes the media tends to generalise the export variant is what will be with Russian Armed Forces.

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.
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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:05 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:You beat me in posting this one. So I give you my vote for adding the translation and inserting your comments/views.
    I will add just a couple of pictures from the same page:
    Karpenko provided text below, google translator provided translation and I, I just copy-paste the thing here but tnx anyway Very Happy .

    Thing is that I finanly managed to see all text provided in prospect. Anyway it is interesting that max 9M96E2 range is not provided but "Area defeat". Wink 

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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  mack8 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:19 pm

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?
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    Re: Vityaz (S-350E) SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:53 am

    Would be interesting to see specifically what can cue the system to launch an "over-the-horizon" shot before the missile's own seeker sees the target.
    To have a good chance of a kill you would need a platform with eyes on target to assure a kill, though a high flying AWACS like aircraft would be ideal as it would allow extended range view of the area around the naval group that could be used to engage multiple threats.

    I rather suspect inertial navigation to target area calculated before launch though the chance of midflight course updates should allow for use against a manouvering target with terminal guidance active radar homing.

    But isnt that true that S-350/Vityaz would replace the older S-300 in service specially the S-300P/PS model ?
    Yes, but the article is suggesting that the export version of S-350 will replace older S-300 systems in Russian Service... which is clearly unlikely.

    Not really new as often journalists will never mention Onyx, and will talk about Yakhont like it is the standard domestic AShM...

    Thats because they fail to realise the subtle difference between export variant and internal one and also for the fact that Internal Variant performance figures are never advertised so it remains unknown.
    And often the domestic missile remains secret so they will talk about Brahmos and Yakhont as if Onyx is just a Yakhont or doesn't even exist.

    Someone posted that the inscription 9M96D is visible on the launch canisters. So perhaps 9M96D for Russia and 9M96E2 for export?
    There are likely two missiles in this system so 9M96D and 9M96D2 for domestic use and 9M96E and 9M96E2 for export...



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