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    Vityaz SAM System

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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:47 pm

    Putin had honor to see Vityaz SAM system for the first time and so do we Very Happy 

    Finally waiting is over - I was expecting first pic to show at the end of this year. 












    PETERSBURG, June 19 - RIA - Novosti. Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" during a visit by Russian President Vladimir Putin Obukhov factory complex for the first time demonstrated a promising defense "Hero", which aims to replace the troops of the C-300.




    The new SAM system is a self-propelled launcher that works in conjunction with all-aspect radar with electronic scanning of space and the command post on the chassis of a special vehicle bases. In ammunition complex includes medium-range missiles used in the S-400, and short-range missiles.
    Making launchers "Hero" deployed in the Obukhov factory, which is part of the Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey".
    The President reviewed the cab car, talking to one of the developers of the complex Constantine Pologova. General Director of "Almaz-Antey" Vladislav Menshikov said that the complex will go to the replacement of C-300 first generation.
    "We agreed with the Ministry of Defence, this year we want to pass on the missile test" - said the head of state Men'shchikov.
    Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, who accompanied the president, confirmed those plans.
    The President also visited the S-400. In addition, during the visit he was told about plans for the reconstruction of the plant. General Director of "Almaz-Antey" in the layout shown that has been done, and talked about what needs to be.
    According to him, after the reconstruction of the plant will be 40 hectares of land for sale. He noted that if the plant was selling the land before its reconstruction, because of their burdens price would be low, but with the bank, which provides funding for the plant can implement them more effectively. In addition, according to Menshchikova planned to create a good sports complex.
    "What are our property, and the land - the city. Now make out the lease," - he said.
    St. Petersburg Governor Georgy Poltavchenko assured: "There are no questions, no problem."
    Putin agreed with the CEO of "Almaz-Antey", it turns out that the project is very beautiful.
    The head of the presidential administration Sergei Ivanov for his part pointed out that the abbreviation of the plant defense contracts also can be deciphered as "the state defense order." "Everyone at one point," - he said.






    Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" first showed SAM "Hero"

    Austin

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:17 pm

    Does Vityaz have an AESA or a PESA Radar any info ?

    xeno

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  xeno on Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:58 pm


    So, the real Vityaz is much bigger and longer than the models on Webs years ago, range >120km guaranteed?
    BTW, I am very worried about the radar which can be PESA too, judging by the 1st photo.
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    SOC

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  SOC on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:33 pm

    In ammunition complex includes medium-range missiles used in the S-400, and short-range missiles.

    Huh.  That's certainly confusing.  The "medium range" missile for the S-400 is the 48N6DM.  Does that mean Vityaz can use it?  If so then the system is a waste of time, as it's basically a reinvented S-400!  I think what they're actually trying to say is that it will use 9M96D and 9M96, and that only the longer-range 9M96D is used by the S-400.  120 kms would still be "short range" compared to the other weapons used by the S-400.


    General Director of "Almaz-Antey" Vladislav Menshikov said that the complex will go to the replacement of C-300 first generation.


    That makes sense.  Replace 90 km range S-300PS/PT-1A batteries with this thing, and replace the 200 km range S-300PMs with the S-400.  I bet this guy is cheaper overall, so you get an increase in capability over the S-300P models without the added expense of the S-400.



    Which leads to a question:  is Vityaz compatible with BIG BIRD?  It'd make sense to replace the SAM systems but leave the battle management complexes intact.
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:55 pm

    Good find! Looks like there are quite a few missiles per vehicle.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:59 pm

    xeno wrote:
    So, the real Vityaz is much bigger and longer than the models on Webs years ago, range >120km guaranteed?
    BTW, I am very worried about the radar which can be PESA too, judging by the 1st photo.


    As soc said, the system is to replace the older S-300P systems, with having longer range then them, and being able to engage against more targets then it, while S-400 and S-300V4 is to replace Medium-Long range SAM systems.  If it works in conjunction with Nebo-M then it can work with AESA radar.  But by the looks of it, it is geared to use current used PESA radar.

    Although, the system is going to delayed till 2016 rather than it coming out next year.  That is on Kommersant (cannot check as .ru links at work are banned).

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    Vityaz has its genesis on South Korea-Russian K-SAM project

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:27 pm

    Vityaz has its genesis on South Korea-Russian K-SAM project , so we can expect Vityaz to be a modern avtar of K-SAM.

    I just hope they move to AESA Radar with Vityaz system , Its time they just reduce the baggage of the PESA system no matter its mature and proven and move over to AESA system ......cant just piggy back on PESA technology for next generation SAM.

    S-400 was critisized for its huge power consumption something PESA tends to do , more like brute force method. AESA would offer lower power consumption , higher spectrum bandwidth and graceful degradation besides others.

    Also time to work on 2nd Gen AESA with Ga/N T/R module , offers around 40 % improvement over first gen Ga/A T/R module

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:32 pm

    all i know is that vitaz or whatever is getting constantly delayed 2012->2013 now 2015,16 Razz
    its such a wasteful program and a money pit ,with nothing substantial in new technology to offer compared to much older systems over 30 yrs old...
    frankly im dissapointed by russians  Nopale
    i expected aesa all around ,dual seeker for missiles, new hybrid rocket (liquid oxidizer) propulsion...
    really theyll be better to just develop a "mini s-400" version with smaller missiles as medium range sam.
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:56 pm

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:17 pm

    I read that from another member as well as on Airliners that Almaz Antey is in really bad management shape hence why no delivories of S-400 and the lack of testing for 40N6 missile last year.  Apparently they are being sued again by MoD.  As well, Putin in the video has expressed worriesome over Vityaz cause he didn't think it would come out.

    So if Almaz Antey is screwing up real bad, then why the funds to the new facilities?  In hopes that S-500, Vityaz and Morphi wont be problematic in development?

    Real shame.  Maybe Antey should not have merged with Almaz.  Management is screwing up a good company.

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  xeno on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:32 pm






    A much more better edition of video
    http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=516569
    All angles of the missile unit and even the radar unit.
    Can any Russian member do a summary of key points?


    Last edited by xeno on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:43 pm

    Wow nice!

    :35...are those project 885 launch tubes? I think so.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:09 am

    SOC : wrote:In ammunition complex includes medium-range missiles used in the S-400, and short-range missiles. Huh. That's certainly confusing. The "medium range" missile for the S-400 is the 48N6DM. Does that mean Vityaz can use it? If so then the system is a waste of time, as it's basically a reinvented S-400! I think what they're actually trying to say is that it will use 9M96D and 9M96, and that only the longer-range 9M96D is used by the S-400. 120 kms would still be "short range" compared to the other weapons used by the S-400.

    I think they call 9M96M/M2 missiles - medium range and the other short range might refer to 9M100 missiles.

    SOC: wrote:General Director of "Almaz-Antey" Vladislav Menshikov said that the complex will go to the replacement of C-300 first generation. That makes sense. Replace 90 km range S-300PS/PT-1A batteries with this thing, and replace the 200 km range S-300PMs with the S-400. I bet this guy is cheaper overall, so you get an increase in capability over the S-300P models without the added expense of the S-400.

    Vityaz will replace S-300PS/PT-1A which will be gone by 2015. 

    S-400 will replace S-300PM but only well after 2020. S-300PM will be (is) modernizing to Favorit standard and will together with S-400 serve well after 2020. 

    SOC: wrote:Which leads to a question: is Vityaz compatible with BIG BIRD? It'd make sense to replace the SAM systems but leave the battle management complexes intact.

    Of course it will be compatible. There is no question about it - but not directly. Thats why you have battle management systems like Baikal-1ME.


    TR1 wrote:Good find! Looks like there are quite a few missiles per vehicle.


    Vityaz will have 35% more missiles than MEADS and SAMP-T Very Happy


    sepheronx wrote:As soc said, the system is to replace the older S-300P systems, with having longer range then them, and being able to engage against more targets then it, while S-400 and S-300V4 is to replace Medium-Long range SAM systems.  If it works in conjunction with Nebo-M then it can work with AESA radar.  But by the looks of it, it is geared to use current used PESA radar.

    Of course it will work in conjunction with Nebo-M. Thats why it is called "integrated".

    sepheronx wrote:Although, the system is going to delayed till 2016 rather than it coming out next year. That is on Kommersant (cannot check as .ru links at work are banned).


    Perhaps there will be no delay. As I have read only problems are with Morfei and it might be delayed something. Vityaz is making good progress. 


    Austin wrote:In other news Putin sated that ASD will spend 3.4 Trillion Rouble by 2020 that is 20 % of total SAP funding , Its more than $100 billion of funding on ASD , quite a big sum by Russian Standard. http://www.itar-tass.com/en/c154/777344.html

    ADF will be massive and complex and integrated. That will eat nice chunk of money. 


    Vityaz has its genesis on South Korea-Russian K-SAM project , so we can expect Vityaz to be a modern avtar of K-SAM. wrote:Austin


    I agree.
    I would say 140-150km range and 30km ceiling for 9M96M2 and up to 60km range and 20-25km ceiling for smaller one. That should do it Very Happy




    I just hope they move to AESA Radar with Vityaz system , Its time they just reduce the baggage of the PESA system no matter its mature and proven and move over to AESA system ......cant just piggy back on PESA technology for next generation SAM. wrote:Austin


    Look at SAMP-T. Its PESA and one of the best air defense systems in the world. 

    But still we still can not tell if Vityaz will have AESA or PESA based on those photos. 


    sepheronx wrote:I read that from another member as well as on Airliners that Almaz Antey is in really bad management shape hence why no delivories of S-400 and the lack of testing for 40N6 missile last year. Apparently they are being sued again by MoD. As well, Putin in the video has expressed worriesome over Vityaz cause he didn't think it would come out. So if Almaz Antey is screwing up real bad, then why the funds to the new facilities? In hopes that S-500, Vityaz and Morphi wont be problematic in development? Real shame. Maybe Antey should not have merged with Almaz. Management is screwing up a good company.

    Thats water under the bridge. Everything is fine. 

    Russian Army is taking deliveries of 4 batteries of S-400 per year with the increase of double or triple when those factories are built. 

    In the meantime S-300(P and V versions) are being modernized to Favorit and V4 standard and whole other array of work is being done like Fundament line of 

    radar command systems and Baikal-1ME SAM command post and other. 



    Little observations:

    1. I think that might be AESA radar
    2. 12 missiles per TEL - biggest load out there
    3. TEL, not TELAR (damn) Very Happy
    4. Huge mast for low level coverage (1:06) - probably those 20 minute mast  they have been talking about
    5. Missiles that have bigger range in distance and altitude than SAMP-T and MEADS
    6. More channels for missile guidance (probably more than SAMP-T), (same or more than MEADS)
    7. This will certainly fit just fine in Il-476 which will give it excellent strategic mobility
    8. This will be 5 minute (or less) system
    9. Absolute integration within existing and future AD network
    10. Different type of missiles 9M96M2/9M96M/9M100
    11. Shooting down tactical ballistic missiles (ATCMS like)
    12. 360° system
    13. Only shooting radar is shown at the picture (search radar is missing) with communication vehicle



    Also interesting note from interfax military - testing will start this year Very Happy (so much for 2016)

    Vityaz rocket system to be transferred to Defense Ministry for tests this year - Almaz-Antey CEO



    - another important thing (With 30 batteries up to 2020) that would be just stunning development and production

    Earlier it was reported that up to the end of 2020 the Russian armed forces will receive not less than 30 complexes \"Knight". SAM will be part of the aerospace defense on par with the S-400 and S-500. wrote:LINK
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 am

    Does Vityaz have an AESA or a PESA Radar any info ?

    I doubt it would take this long if it was PESA.

    Huh.  That's certainly confusing.  The "medium range" missile for the S-400 is the 48N6DM.  Does that mean Vityaz can use it?  If so then the system is a waste of time, as it's basically a reinvented S-400!  I think what they're actually trying to say is that it will use 9M96D and 9M96, and that only the longer-range 9M96D is used by the S-400.  120 kms would still be "short range" compared to the other weapons used by the S-400.

    Perhaps the medium range missiles of S-400 are both the smaller missiles previously shown, while the shorter range missiles they refer to might be Morfei.

    I also suspect the original ranges are not the same any more either... I have read that the 40km and 120km ranges have increased to over 60km and over 150km.

    Which leads to a question:  is Vityaz compatible with BIG BIRD?  It'd make sense to replace the SAM systems but leave the battle management complexes intact.

    But surely upgrading the battle management complexes is worth the money as well?
    Previous practise was to make old missiles compatible with the new systems, and the reverse makes sense too... for example a BUK could be integrated into a KUB battery.


    Good find! Looks like there are quite a few missiles per vehicle.

    I noticed that as well... it looks like 6 missiles on the top layer, but early claims were the system carried 16 missiles... three layers would make 18 missiles and two layers would make 12...

    Although, the system is going to delayed till 2016 rather than it coming out next year.  That is on Kommersant (cannot check as .ru links at work are banned).

    If this was simple PESA and old short and medium range S-400 missiles in the system then it should have been ready years ago.

    The Aerospace Defence Troops should have no less than 50 percent of modern weapons by 2015 and no less than 70 percent by 2020.
    To this end, the Aerospace Defence Troops have been provided with new Voronezh-M and Voronezh-DM radar stations, Pantsyr-S missile defence systems, and S-400 systems.

    They should also have funding left over to give their Mig-31s a proper upgrade and develop a useful successor.

    Vityaz has its genesis on South Korea-Russian K-SAM project , so we can expect Vityaz to be a modern avtar of K-SAM.

    Well technically Vityaz has its genesis in the smaller S-400 missiles, with the South Korean-Russian  K-SAM project a cousin. I suspect the Russian military have learnt from their experience with Pantsir-S1 and are demanding rather more including new sensors and systems. The integration of Morfei also means more development pressure and technology needed...

    Its time they just reduce the baggage of the PESA system no matter its mature and proven and move over to AESA system ......cant just piggy back on PESA technology for next generation SAM.

    They shouldn't go for AESA just because it is new and cool and has growth potential... it actually has to be better than PESA. There would be no harm in Vityaz entering service with a PESA and having AESA added later on as an upgrade when it offers a useful boost in performance that warrants its extra cost.

    S-400 was critisized for its huge power consumption something PESA tends to do , more like brute force method. AESA would offer lower power consumption , higher spectrum bandwidth and graceful degradation besides others.

    Are you honestly trying to suggest that one big torch will use more power than 1,000 torches that need a separate cooling systems to operate properly...???

    I read that from another member as well as on Airliners that Almaz Antey is in really bad management shape hence why no delivories of S-400 and the lack of testing for 40N6 missile last year.

    So the stories about new S-400 deployments were made up?

    So if Almaz Antey is screwing up real bad, then why the funds to the new facilities?

    If there are management problems they generally replace the management team... building new buildings would not solve the problems... the only problem new buildings solves is lack of production capacity.

    Maybe Antey should not have merged with Almaz.  Management is screwing up a good company.

    Jumping to conclusions very rapidly there mate... Smile

    Lets wait to find out the real truth rather than listen to a few people on the internet.

    Perhaps there will be no delay. As I have read only problems are with Morfei and it might be delayed something. Vityaz is making good progress.

    Morfei is quite a step forward for them... an IIR guided missile with a datalink and lock on after launch capability, not to mention full thrust vector control to allow extreme manouver capability upon launch and in the terminal phase... the latter perhaps requiring side thruster motors.

    2. 12 missiles per TEL - biggest load out there

    I wonder about the loading options with three different missile types/sizes.

    It appears to have locations for 12 tubes, but they are the full length tubes for the largest missiles... how will a mix of missile types effect the loadout?

    There was talk of 16 missiles per vehicle (ie 4 tubes in 4 missile positions like the original), but does that mean a full loadout is 12 missiles whether they are short, medium or long range models? A full load of 12 Morfei missiles means a lot of empty tube space...
    [/quote]


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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:22 am

    OK, so if Almaz Antey is doing well, then what is with the delay with 40N6?  How come no testing of said missile?
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:27 am

    Has MOD payed on time?

    THats the issue in every aspect of the industry.
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:06 am

    Mismanagement is a very unlikely reason for the delay in the development of a new missile... Izhmash has dozens of weapons in development while they were reportedly being mismanaged.

    BTW how in the world do you know whether or not the 40N6 is or is not being tested... maybe the problem is unreliable sources? Or perhaps biased sources with either a chip on their shoulder or an axe to grind?

    Perhaps the priority has been Vityaz in the land and sea models... we are talking about complete systems with likely AESA radars and all sorts of sophisticated technologies that must work together for the systems to be ready... perhaps at the moment they might be focussing on getting the naval models ready to be fitted to the Kirovs, Mistrals, and Kuznetsov and of course the new frigates.

    The problem with internet analysis is that one persons guess becomes the gospel truth to those that pass it on and pretty soon you find you need good information to refute what was always merely speculation in the first place... and if there was good information there in the first place there would be no need for the idle speculation...


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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:02 am

    So, some new features:

    AESA radar with both scanning, tracking and guidence capabilities.
    Active-Seekers on missiles.
    Rumors on IIR seeker as well.
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:08 am

    Morfei will use the IIR seeker... whether the Vityaz has dual IIR and ARH seekers is interesting... and would make such a missile very useful as a BVR missile for a new fighter aircraft and give excellent anti stealth capabilities too.


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    Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:57 pm

    Wow! A pleasant surprise to see it now. I was under the impression it wouldn't be shown until some time in 2014. 

    Looks better (and bigger) than the old models previously shown. According to what I've read so far, I think it will outclass the Aster/SAMP-T....for starters it can launch about 20-30% more missiles in a salvo. Apparently, one of the requirements was that it has to be able to engage a minimum 10-15 targets simultaneously
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:14 am

    New Vityaz photos Very Happy









    and whole set of other EXCELLENT pictures Very Happy

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/679539.html#cutid1


    @TR1 - I guess Puting (by the look of his face) does not know either what are those holes for Laughing

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    medo

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  medo on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 pm

    Excellent photos. Vityaz will continue with their tradition of high mobility. I miss GLONASS and radio communication antennas, bit it is still prototype.

    I wonder if Putin was teached in KGB to make such face impressions? Very Happy
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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:20 pm

    medo wrote:Excellent photos. Vityaz will continue with their tradition of high mobility. I miss GLONASS and radio communication antennas, bit it is still prototype.


    I will call it - Black Knight "what eye sees, hand destroys" Very Happy

    If I could persuade somehow Almaz-Antej director to paint it in black haha
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    TR1

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:24 pm

    LOL nice Putin photo.

    Rogozin looks as clueless as him.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Vityaz SAM System

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:45 am

    WoW .. first time we see missile by the Vityaz complex Very Happy 

    Somebody should do measuring - but by the looks of it, it seems like a 9M96 with smaller range




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