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    Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

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    Mindstorm

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    Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:36 pm

    http://ria.ru/arms_news/20120703/690810666.html



    Over the confirmation of the numbers already known for some of the weapon systems expected for the 2020 Army's procurement plan (about 2300 new MBTs, 10 brigaded of Iskander-M, 2000 new artillery systems and sone dozen of thousands of other fighting/technical vehicles) we have the first indication of the target amount of S-300V4 expected for 2020 : 9 brigades.


    This suggest ,for the next years, a probable re-modulation of the reqirements for the Medium ,Short, and also Ultra-Short range (if an optimized cross-country "Morfei" will be completed in time) SAM[b] omponents of the Russian Army's mobile IAD at 15-20 brigades for each segment......very likely only partially covered by new SAM models.
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    TR1

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:53 pm

    What is the makeup of a S-300V brigade?
    Is it the same as S-400 with 16 TELs per brigade?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:05 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Yes 16 launchers, up to 24 in some instances.

    Those modern S-300V4 brigades surely represent an excellent long range anti-aircraft/missile component for the mobile IADS at protection of Russian Ground Forces in any major conflict, but naturally the problems for Russian Armed Forces lie elsewhere.....


    Well that means, brigade=regiment=3-4 x batery =3/4x 4-12 launchers.

    I think S-400 regiment can consist of up to 6 batteries each with max 12 TEL on the mobile version

    regiment. Meaning if S-300V4 is able to provide 6 battery at one regiment it could theoretically mean 1 Brigade of S-300V4 = 6 batteries = 6 batteries x 12 TEL = 72 TEL for one Brigade. 9 Brigade would mean 9 x 72 TEL = 648 TEL vehicles wich is huuuudge number. That would also mean that for the smaller 9M83 missile it could place 648 TEL x 4 9M83M = 2592 9M83M missiles .... LOL

    GarryB can you please provide that link on wich was explained structure of airdefense brigade/batery/tank brigade you had it all pritty nice summed up.
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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:34 am

    GarryB can you please provide that link on wich was explained structure of airdefense brigade/batery/tank brigade you had it all pretty nice summed up.

    In the current brigade structure:

    An independent Motor Rifle Brigade would have in terms of air defence...

    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14

    the full document:

    New Russian Brigade TO&E
    .
    Russia is re-organizing its ground forces to a new, brigade-based structure. That's a move that the German army did in the late 50's and it became the model for many NATO allies during the 60's and 70's (we kept the division HQs as a fig leaf for political reasons mostly).

    The advantage of a brigade-centric structure is the supposedly optimal combination of combat power and agility on the battlefield. The greater (x3) quantity of brigades in comparison to divisions also reduces the widths and areas to be covered by their staffs.


    Russian army units are traditionally smaller than Western counterparts (a Soviet WW2 Corps was about as large as a German WW2 division if both were at target strength). That reduced the need for a step towards smaller, more agile units (the orthodox way of covering a large war zone with a smaller army than known from both world wars).

    I heard about their army reform efforts years ago and understood it to be mostly about reform of the "hidden" values (less overhead, better training, better morale and the like), and for less mobbing, but it involves also said brigade structure.

    This is one of the versions about their new standard combat brigade structure. They don't seem to have settled on one specific design and there's some uncertainty around the issue. Here's no room for multiple TO&Es, so let's focus on this version and keep in mind that this TO&E is preliminary and unreliable info.


    Russian Independent Motor Rifle Brigade
    (about 4,500 personnel)

    Command Company

    Signal Battalion
    - HQ
    - 2 x Signal Companies

    1x or 2x Tank Battalion(s) (usually 1)
    - HQ: 1 x MBT
    - 4 x Tank Companies with each 10 x T72/T-80/T-90

    3 x Motor Rifle Battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x Motor Rifle Companies: 10 x BMP or BTR or MT-LB
    - Mortar Company: 6 x 120mm Mortars 2B11/2S12 or 6 x 82mm Mortars 2B14
    - AGL platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AGS-30 AGL
    - Antitank platoon: 3 x BMP or BTR, 6 x AT4/AT13/AT14
    - Recon platoon: 1 x BMR-K, 2 BMP or 3 x BTR
    - Engineer platoon
    - Logistic platoon
    - Medical platoon

    Artillery Command and recon battery
    2 x SP howitzer battalions
    - HQ
    - 3 x SP Howitzer Batteries: 6 x 2S3M or 2S19 152mm SP Howitzers or 6 x 2S1 122mm Howitzers

    Rocket launcher battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x MLRS Batteries: 6 x BM21

    Antitank Battalion
    - HQ
    - 1-2 AT Gun Batteries: 6 x 100mm MT-12 AT-Gun, should be replaced with 6 x 2S25 Sprut
    - 1-2 ATGM Batteries: 9-12 x 9P148 (AT-5) or 9-12 x 9P149 (AT-6), should be replaced with 12 x 9P162 (BMP3 with AT-14 Kornet)

    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14

    Recon Company: 4 x BMR-K, 6 x BMP oder 10 x BTR

    NBC Defence Company

    Engineer Battalion
    - HQ
    - Engineer sapper company
    - Engineer construction company
    - Engineer technical company
    - Pontoon bridge company

    Maintenance battalion
    - HQ
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Company
    - Ordnance/Weapons Maintenance Company
    - Electronic Maintenance company
    - Combat Recovery Company

    Supply battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Transport Companies
    - Support Company
    Medical company

    + garrison services
    - - - - -

    My remarks:

    The real quality depends on 'hidden' values, especially on the training, communications, availability of supply and doctrine.

    Russian companies, battalions and regiments are still smaller than comparable Western units (many companies look like large Western platoons). The brigade would otherwise amount to a division.

    One suspicion is that the C4I of the brigade will have weak spots - that's difficult to tell from the distance, though.

    36 SPH, 18 SP MRL and 18 mortars. That's a strong indirect fire support for a brigade.

    The aforementioned brigade structure is apparently for combat brigades - other brigades would be artillery brigades. Additionally.

    Four to five combat battalions is a lot in a single brigade (German brigades have three). The span of command & control is unnecessarily wide.

    The recce units are rather small and won't be able to do much more than for example route recce.

    This brigade TO&E was obviously made for conventional warfare, although certain Russian 'peacekeeping' activities would be in the range of its abilities as well.

    I saw a different TO&E version as well; it had an electronic warfare company and a sniper platoon.



    Sven Ortmann
    at 13.10.09
    5 Comments:

    EN said...
    Not too different from the old regimental structure, but with more artillery. The Russians love their artillery as much as the US loves air power. I'd prefer organic firepower, but my countrymen disagree for the most part.

    Notice there's not much in the way of maintenance and it's all kicked up to Bn? That cost them dearly in Afghanistan and it had to be added to each company as time went on with a small "section" in each maneuver company devoted to towing, and repair of vehicles. This same lack mechanics was felt by the US in Vietnam.

    The lack of recon is intentional. The second company of each Bn is trained in Reconnaissance. Some of the Russian army accounts of their adventure in Georgia always had the second company leading the way.

    The lack of C4I is standard Red Army. A Bn commander and his XO were expected to plan most operations with a staff of less than five people, including them. They really don't appreciate lower level units getting too complicated by design. Maybe they're right?

    All in all, it's not too bad, or much different.
    14 October 2009 01:35

    J. said...
    I like that they keep an NBC company in the brigade structure. In the US Army, you get a pair of NBC recon vehicles. That's about it. Maybe a decon platoon will be chopped to support, but only if it's a really big exercise and the reserves are participating.
    14 October 2009 14:29

    Sven Ortmann said...
    Decon is a good idea for many purposes, even ones completely unrelated to NBC problems.

    It's good for delousing, for example (if the unit is prepared for it).

    You won't see such needs if you only do exercises for a few days, of course.
    14 October 2009 15:11

    Lambda said...
    Have to concur with EN here, not much fundamental change beyond a re-shuffling of the old regimental battalion-sized cards.
    I found interesting that there would be a separate medium-range SAM battalion. SA-8/15 used to be division-level only in the (publicly available) late-80s TOEs. Potentially a useful move, reminds of reflexions about fighting without air superiority already mentioned here.
    14 October 2009 20:10


    source: http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.co.nz/2009/10/new-russian-brigade-to.html?showComment=1255543823677#c131801300241930485


    So repeating the above AD force within a standard brigade:


    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x SA-8 or 4 x SA-15 or 2 SA-11

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x ZSU-23-4 or 2S6
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x SA-13
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x SA-14


    For the new brigade structure I rather suspect that SA-11 for the 1980s and 1990s would have changed to SA-17 and when the new vehicle families are ready Vityaz could replace the SA-17 and the shorter range models of S-300 etc.

    Equally in the AD missile and gun battalion Pantsir-S1 and Morfei would replace Tunguska and SA-13 respectively while SA-14 would be replaced by Igla in the late 1980s and 90s, and Igla-S and perhaps Verba when it arrives.

    So the new Brigade air defence force might look like this:


    Air defence missile battalion
    - HQ
    - 3 x Heavy AD Batteries: 4 x Vityaz 4 x SA-15D

    Air defence missile - artillery battalion
    - HQ
    - 1 x SP AD Gun Battery: 6 x Pantsir-S1
    - 1 x AD Battery: 6 x Morfei
    - 1 x AD Battery: 27 x Igla-S or Verba

    The main issue would be regarding the variation between light, medium, and heavy brigades... Pantsir-S1 will be a similar weight to Tunguska... at about 30-35 tons so in medium and light brigades and lighter vehicle might be needed... perhaps with one twin barrel 30mm, or perhaps even more radical a trailer mount with a missile launch platform like a MLRS with 360 degree turntable for a large pod of ready to fire missiles perhaps?


    In independent AD brigades I would expect batteries of 4-12 TELs with command vehicles, where battery and battalion mean the same thing, so a regiment is a group of batteries and a brigade is a group of regiments. For instance AFAIK an S-300 battery can consist of up to 12 launchers, while a BUK battery can also consist of up to 12 launchers, though 6 of those are TELs with radar, while the other 6 are launcher/loaders carrying 4 missiles ready to fire and 4 reserve missiles. TOR has a battery of up to 4 vehicles which of course combine launchers and the radars needed. Pantsir-S1 can operate up to 6 vehicles in a battery, while the old Shilka tended to operate in pairs.

    The size of the battery is largely determined by the ability of the command vehicle to share targets. TORs operate in groups of 4. Pantsir-S1s operate in groups of up to 6. One vehicle in the group will act as the command vehicle and receive target data from higher up as well as the shared info from the other vehicles in the group and the command vehicle will assign targets to each vehicle to ensure the battery is able to handle the targets as they present themselves.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:20 pm

    TR1 wrote:What is the makeup of a S-300V brigade?
    Is it the same as S-400 with 16 TELs per brigade?

    Nope,

    One full Brigade of S-300VM system consist of

    - 48 9A83M TELAR (9M83M missiles) + 24 9A85 TEL ( 9M83M missiles) = 288 9M83M missiles
    - 24 9A82M TELAR (9M82M missiles) + 24 9A84 TEL ( 9M82M missiles) = 72 9M82M missiles

    9 Brigades makes nine times more TELAR/TEL with almost 3500 hypersonic missiles.

    Thats why Almaz-Antej will have something to do until 2020.

    On the other hand Russia plans to produce 56 Battalions of S-400 systems witch makes.

    - 5376 TEL and 21504 missiles of 48N6 class in its max. allowed connectivity.

    But as we sow earlier one regiment/battalion makes only two (min. batteries) wich would make

    1344 TELAR for (12 TELAR battery) and 4 times more missiles of 48N6 class.

    Numbers above for S-300VM are also given for full size brigade.

    Nevertheless it numbers are mindblowing.

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    TR1

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:16 pm

    Any sources for these numbers? They seem unbelievably high, considering Russia never even operated that many S-300Vs.
    You sure you are talking about vehicles, not tubes?

    Why would an S-300V unit have that many more launchers than a S-400?

    From what I understand the current S-400 plans are for 56 battalions = 448 launchers. Which is still massive.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:50 pm

    TR1 wrote:Any sources for these numbers?

    Not the one I have permision to tell. paratrooper

    TR1 wrote:They seem unbelievably high, considering Russia never even operated that many S-300Vs.

    Those numbers are given for full size heavy SAM S-300V4 brigade. In reality just like with S-400 number of TEL will likely be around half or less of max. number and that corrensponds with current S-300V strength meaning by 2020 Russia intends to have all of its S-300V replaced with S-300VM4.

    There are 70 batteries of S-300V system within 6-10 S-300V brigades wich will be replaced with S-300VM4 by 2020 and thats what Putin had in mind.

    TR1 wrote:You sure you are talking about vehicles, not tubes?

    Times 4 and you got the planed SAM firepower for 9M83M
    Times 2 and you got the planed SAM firepower for 9M82M

    TR1 wrote:From what I understand the current S-400 plans are for 56 battalions = 448 launchers. Which is still massive.

    Nope.

    One S-400 battalion can consist of max 8 batteries each having max 12 TEL. Thats a lot of TELs for 56 full sized battalions.

    At current rate Russia is having 2 S-400 batteries per battalion. If it keeps this way by 2020 it will have 56 battalions each with 2 battery of 8-12 TEL ranging from 900-1400 brand new S-400 TEL each having 4 S-400 missiles.

    Anyway I expect Russia to have by 2020 around 1500 new TELAR/TEL of S-300VM4 and S-400 systems.

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    SOC

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  SOC on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:14 am

    Viktor wrote:One S-400 battalion can consist of max 8 batteries each having max 12 TEL. Thats a lot of TELs for 56 full sized battalions.

    I've looked at all four of the Moscow S-400 sites, and they all appear to be in possession of eight towed TELs. That'd therefore appear to be the standard equipment set for one battery. Each battery comes with its own 96L6 radar as well, in place of the 5N66/76N6.

    "Up to 12 TELs" likely means 1) you can buy a battery with up to 12 TELs, albeit after 2017, or 2) they're storing unrequired TELs and only deploying eight at each launch complex. Could also be that the remaining 4 TELs are going to be different, fitted with the 40N6, in which case it makes perfectly good sense why they're currently absent.
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    Viktor

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    S-300V brigades

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:45 pm

    SOC wrote:I've looked at all four of the Moscow S-400 sites, and they all appear to be in possession of eight towed TELs. That'd therefore appear to be the standard equipment set for one battery. Each battery comes with its own 96L6 radar as well, in place of the 5N66/76N6.

    8 TEL per battery is standard Russian.


    SOC wrote:"Up to 12 TELs" likely means 1) you can buy a battery with up to 12 TELs, albeit after 2017, or

    Russia has standard 8 TEL per battery.
    China bought 6 TEL per battery but it is standard that one export S-300Pxx battery comes with 4 TEL (but more loading vehicle) althrow you can make adjustments with up to 12 TEL per battery suiting your needs.


    @TR1
    I have to correct myself. Russia will not have 56 battalions but 56 batteries wich means 56 x 8 TEL = 448 TEL = 448 x 4 = 1792 missiles (not counting smaller ones wich my increase that number)

    I guess newsreporters are the ones most confused here spreading caos and panic at the same time everywhere. Very Happy



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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  Austin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:04 pm

    9M317M -----> BUKM2 or BUKM3 ?
    9M82M ------> Which sam is this ?
    9M83M ------> Which SAM is this ?
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    Viktor Thanks for Posting.

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:19 pm

    Austin wrote:Viktor Thanks for Posting.

    Just a clarification

    9M317M -----> BUKM2 or BUKM3 ?
    9M82M ------> Which sam is this ?
    9M83M ------> Which SAM is this ?

    9M317 is used by BUK-M2, it could be that 9M317M will use BUK-M3 with ARH and 70km range (12 missiles per TELAR)

    Very Happy - old picture (with wrong missile index - but you get the idea)




    And the new one





    - 9M92M and 9M83M are all part of a S-300V4 missiles system with larger one (9M82M) having horrific 350 km range russia Very Happy
     (export versions of those missiles under Antej-2500 have 200 - 250 km range)

    Here is a nice link with good pictures LINK

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:56 pm

    Oh, I see... sort of Neutral 

    So, just out of curiosity, how many TELs/TELARs are (usually) in V-PVO regiments/battalions, of BUK/S-300V systems?
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    Oh, I see... sort of Neutral So, just out of curiosity, how many TELs/TELARs are (usually) in V-PVO regiments/battalions, of BUK/S-300V systems?

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:27 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Oh, I see... sort of Neutral 

    So, just out of curiosity, how many TELs/TELARs are (usually) in V-PVO regiments/battalions, of BUK/S-300V systems?
    Well there are aberrations because of different reasons but the most common thing concerning S-300VM

    Per regiment:

    - 4 (batteries make one regiment) x 6 (9A83M TELAR) = 24 9A83M TELAR = 96 9M83M missiles / per regiments (ready to fire)

    - 4 (batteries make one regiment) x 6 (9A84M TEL)    = 24 9A83M TEL     = 96 9M83M missiles / per regiments (ready to load)

    - 4 (batteries make one regiment) x 3 (9A82M TELAR) = 12 9A82M TELAR  = 24 9M82M missiles / per regiments (ready to load)

    - 4 (batteries make one regiment) x 6 (9A85M TEL)    = 24 9A82M TEL     = 48 9M83M missiles / per regiments (ready to load)

    so you have at the end per regiment

    - 24 9A83M TELAR + 24 9A83M TEL = 96 9M83M missiles ready to fire and 96 9M83M missiles ready to load 

    - 12 9A82M TELAR + 24 9A95M TEL = 24 9M82M missiles ready to fire and 48 9M92M missiles ready to load

    x 3 for BRIGADE Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 


    BUK missile composition is similar to S-300V meaning: battery (non-existant as an independent operational unit) -> regiment (up to 3 batteries) -> brigade (up to 4 regiments)

    One BUK battery consist of:

    - 2 x 9A310M1 + 2 x 9A39M1 (now you do the counting)


    Things described above are of course most simplistic view of Russian ADS design. Real one is beauty on its own.


    Last edited by Viktor on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Air Defense of Ground Troops

    Post  Viktor on Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:13 am

    During 2016 RF created 3 new air defense brigades
    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20161224/1484526915.html


    [b]Lieutenant-General Alexander Leonov:[/b] wrote:Three new anti-aircraft missile brigade formed into two military districts

    The basis of the system of armament army air defense constitute anti-aircraft missile systems and complexes (AAMS and SAM), S-300V3, "Buk-M2", "Tor-M1", "Thor M2U", "Osa-AKM", "Tunguska-M1" MANPADS "Igla", "Willow". The main means of automated control are complex automation equipment (KSA) "Polyana-D4M1" intended to equip the command centers of military districts, armies, air defense missile brigades in mobile and stationary versions, as well as a single CSA "Barnaul-T" - for equipment units air defense of motorized rifle (tank) divisions (brigades).

    and accompanied radio troops without naming the automation exuipment Very Happy

    By means of intelligence are mobile radar station (RLS) standby "Sky-SV", "Sky-SVU" and the combat mode "Ginger", "Overview", "Dome", as well as portable radar "harmony."

    so, this means a loot of S-300V3s russia

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    Re: Ground Troops Air Defense Structure

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