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    MiG-31DZ ASAT

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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:33 pm

    Are you drunk? The R-29 is 14 metres Long and weights 35 tons!

    This missile is an ASAT and/or carrier for satellites.

    Most ICBMs and SLBMs are three stage missiles or more but that first stage is normally enormous because it needs to take a stationary missile and get it moving vertically and accelerate it... which requires enormous energy and power... so it is generally rather heavy and big.

    If you are going to lift that rocket and put it 10km up in the air past the thickest part of the earths atmosphere and already moving at mach 2 then you can often remove that heavy section and the stage two rocket is much less powerful and uses much less energy because it only has to lift one other stage and the payload.

    Of course a SLBM is designed to maximise its internal volume to completely fill a vertical missile launch tube that is generally about 2m wide, so it would not be the optimum shape for aerodynamic flight under an aircraft... perhaps a Tu-160 in a bomb bay with the rotary launcher removed...

    Launching satellites is rather expensive, so this would be rather interesting... in an emergency this could be flown to any airfield on the planet and launch a package of critical items to the space station in theory... its altitude is 350km, so we are probably talking about 170-180kgs... which would be a lot of food or water or medicine or critical components/materials...
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    Hole

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Hole on Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:24 pm

    4 possible applications for this rocket/missile:

    1. bring a small satellite into space
    2. ASAT (kill vehicle)
    3. ABM (same or another version of the kill vehicle)
    4. deliver a small nucelar device.


    There is also a fifth application: bring a GRU agent into space to smear Novichok onto the door handle of the ISS!  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:40 am

    1, yes, 2, yes, 3 not so much as it would probably be more useful to have it doing other things while an enemy is attacking... like looking for low flying strike aircraft trying to penetrate your airspace... and 4, interesting idea but there are a lot of simpler and cheaper and quicker ways of doing that.


    Regarding the 5th idea.... you almost got it... not deliver a GRU agent with poison... a GRU hacker to directly hack western satellites.... Twisted Evil
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    Hole

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Hole on Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:42 am

    To point 4 again: this would be a small FOBS so the MiG-31 would become a strategic bomber.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:57 am

    Interesting... though the deorbit rocket motor would take up weight... you could get away with 2-3 separate warheads each with a deorbit motor on it... it probably would not be terribly accurate, but they could arrive from any direction at any time... which would make them rather good for use against an enormous target like the US or EU...

    There is no need for them to use a higher orbit so 300km would be fine... and would mean less energy would be needed for the de orbit burn.
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    Hole

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Hole on Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:53 am

    Back to the hackers in outer space. That´s why Trump wants a guard on every western satellite. They will be fitted with chairs. Very Happy

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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:50 am

    GarryB wrote:1, yes, 2, yes, 3 not so much as it would probably be more useful to have it doing other things while an enemy is attacking... like looking for low flying strike aircraft trying to penetrate your airspace... and 4, interesting idea but there are a lot of simpler and cheaper and quicker ways of doing that.

    Why do you say that? There really isn't 'a lot' simpler, cheaper, quicker ways. Think about this. Through SLBM's, you would need new boomers, and just like ICBM's they're controlled by nuclear treaties, so through that method they're definitely not cheaper financially or politically. Remember all the discussions this forum has had over the years over the use of cruise missiles in relation to MAD? Everyone basically agreed that there more of a "after the fact" weapon, as opposed to the first strike weapons such as ICBM's/SLBM's. I think something like this can answer for that. I could definitely see this being launched within 10-15 minutes of ICBM's/SLBM's, and striking within 20-30 minutes of them, being capable to launch a strategic cruise missiles payload with the speed and range of a FOB's like orbital strike. This definitely would be cheaper financially and politically, as they could just run with the narrative that it's simply a "ASAT weapon" and nothing more, until the nuclear clock strikes 12 midnight. To add to the fact that they are "cheaper politically", is that the U.S. announced both the 'Point Global Strike', as well as the 'Space Force' combined with the fact that the US side doesn't have an analogue, which would mean that their would be very little leverage in a new START treaty to reduce the numbers of them on the Russian side. It's no mere secret with the announcements of PGS and the Space Force, that this is a calculated response shown of the Federations' part.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:27 am

    I think something like this can answer for that. I could definitely see this being launched within 10-15 minutes of ICBM's/SLBM's, and striking within 20-30 minutes of them, being capable to launch a strategic cruise missiles payload with the speed and range of a FOB's like orbital strike.

    The reason I say that is because 10-15 minutes after ICBMs are launched the Tu-95s and Tu-160s will be airborne on their way to launch nuclear armed cruise missiles, but most of the MiG-31s will be armed with R-37M missiles and will be looking for missile armed US strategic aircraft coming over the north pole... some will have Kinzhal looking for US carriers or AEGIS destroyers, but how many will be available to use FOBS weapons?

    It would make more sense for them to be attacking US satellites as they come over so that by the time US missiles (cruise and ballistic) arrive they will not get any support from their now depleted satellite network over Russia...

    In a couple of days time in the far east in some backwater airfield they can launch MiG-31s over and over to launch FOBs against any point on the planet and just keep hammering them while they still have fuel and weapons... but before then there are other things they need to do...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm

    Russia’s MiG-31 Spotted With Possible Anti-Satellite Missile
    What is FOB?
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:32 am

    FOB is fractional orbital bomb/er.

    In other words instead of lofting a missile up into the air on a ballistic path like a shell from a gun, you actually launch the projectile into orbit... you could make it go around several times, or just a portion of a full orbit and then fire retro rockets to slow down below orbital speed to fall down over the target area.

    The point is that from Russia most ICBMs will go over the north pole and over canada and then land on the US... with FOB, you can launch them over the south pole so they go south over Asia, and Australia and over Antarctica and then up over south and central america and attack the US from the south... where it is not looking...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:09 am

    Well, the US has Amundsen Scott on the South Pole & McMurdo Stations on the coast in the Antarctic; EW radars can be installed there, where the C-5 had landed; C-17s did it in winter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Runway
    https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/122465/c-17-crew-lands-after-dark-landing-in-antarctica/  
    https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/south-pole-rescue/index.html

    They could also put BMD sites on the Diego Garcia/Falklands/Easter/Clipperton Islands, in Australia, Puerto Rico, Florida, Texas, N. Carolina, & S. California. The discussion on putting more BMD sites on the E. Coast already started in the US a few years ago. CGs with ABM interceptors can also patrol the Southern maritime approaches.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:30 am

    And think about the cost of basically having to change from just looking north to looking in every direction in case of attack...

    The US will have to spend billions on this... and to be honest it wont make them any safer... some will just know it is all over a bit earlier that is all.

    Well, the US has Amundsen Scott on the South Pole & McMurdo Stations on the coast in the Antarctic; EW radars can be installed there, where the C-17s had landed in winter.

    I know.... they fly there from a US base in Christchurch...

    More ABM sites means more Russian missiles...

    From a Russian perspective making US CGs with ABM interceptors operate in the southern oceans makes it well worth the minimal cost of making FOB capable systems...

    They don't need to be huge... nuke warheads are neither big nor heavy, so getting them into orbit is no huge problem.

    The Soviets and Russians already look 360 degrees for threats so the US cannot really return the favour... they have been doing it for years...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:30 am

    ..US CGs with ABM interceptors operate in the southern oceans
    No, they can just patrol the Caribbean (anti-drug ops r done there anyway) & off W. Mexican/C. American coast. NORAD's EW radars were in Norway, & Greenland & Canada for decades. The Sea-based X-band Radar & missile tracking ships can be moved South as well:
    In February 2012, the Missile Defense Agency requested only $9.7 million per year for Fiscal Years 2013 through 2017, down from $176.8 million in fiscal 2012. This reduced amount would be used to maintain SBX in a “limited test support” role, "while also retaining the ability to recall it to an active, operational status if and when it is needed.” ..The radar was able to perform its mission of tracking a target operating at ICBM speeds during the interception of a mock ICBM by a Ground-Based Midcourse Defense interceptor on 30 May 2017.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-based_X-band_Radar#Operational_history

    Inside of its massive white inflatable dome is a four-million-pound X band phased array radar system. This massive piece of radiating technology was designed to provide incredibly detailed tracking of enemy intercontinental ballistic missiles and mid-course updates for ground-based interceptor systems.
    The radar is so powerful and features such a high degree of resolution, that it can differentiate between decoys and warheads during a missile's mid-course separation phase of flight better than any other radar system out there. The information from it is data-linked to command and control stations where a decision will be made to commit interceptors to the missile if its trajectory is deemed a threat. It can then provide highly precise telemetry of those threatening objects to missile interceptors as they ascend toward their target. The system also provides kill assessment data after an intercept has occurred. ..
    The ability to quickly re-position the SBX-1 is key as it can position itself along the most probable flight paths of hostile missiles. The SBX-1 radar is so powerful that Lt. Gen Obering, at the time the director of the Missile Defense Agency, said that the system is able to track an object the size of a baseball over San Francisco from Chesapeake Bay in Virginia, which is approximately 2,900 miles from radar to target!
    https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-are-the-little-known-ships-that-make-missile-defe-1594677657
    Just increasing taxes on US oil companies, cutting foreign aid &/ some weapons programs, + less spending on S. Korea defense will raise those extra $Bs. Canada could also contribute more for the NORAD, freeing some $ for sites facing South.
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    Hole

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Hole on Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:30 am

    No weapons allowed in Antarctica.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:17 pm

    Radars r not weapons, & the US can ditch this treaty on "no mil. deployments in the Antarctic continent" as on BMD & INF treaties once/if it suits them.
    https://apnews.com/99ab3fb09bbe41a497db0162a3c213be
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:18 am

    If America starts using Antarctica for military purposes you will have to shift your base from Christchurch to Australia... which will add a couple of thousand kms to the trip in each direction... not the end of the world but also not very convenient.

    And of course once you start basing weapons there there will be nothing to stop the Russians and Chinese from doing the same...

    The SBX-1 radar is so powerful that Lt. Gen Obering, at the time the director of the Missile Defense Agency, said that the system is able to track an object the size of a baseball over San Francisco from Chesapeake Bay in Virginia, which is approximately 2,900 miles from radar to target!

    Yeah... during the 1990s the Russians let slip that their space tracking capacity includes the ability to track targets as small as paint chips in orbit...

    Just increasing taxes on US oil companies, cutting foreign aid &/ some weapons programs, + less spending on S. Korea defense will raise those extra $Bs. Canada could also contribute more for the NORAD, freeing some $ for sites facing South.

    US foreign Aid is spent on US companies and products, so cutting foreign aid is cutting trade with countries that would otherwise have no money to spend on your products.

    Odds are military spending will actually vastly increase... not decrease... and why should Canada contribute anything to NORAD... its purpose is to defend the US, not Canada.

    Just like US troops in South Korea is all about US troops near China and nothing really to do with protecting SK.

    Sounds like a lot of problems... but as we have seen the MiG has been shown carrying a rocket to launch items into orbit, and their new heavy ICBM also has the capacity to travel to targets via the South Pole as stated by Russian officials....
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:46 am

    Between the 50-190 meridians leading to CONUS from Siberia, EW radars on Diego Garcia, Kerguelen, in Chile &/ on the Falklands + special optics in Antarctica may be enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerguelen_Islands

    Interceptor sites on Diego Garcia, Kerguelen, Australia & her islands & ships in the Indian Ocean may also be used for BMD & take out at least some BMs before the rest cross the S. Pole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heard_Island_and_McDonald_Islands

    By the time they reach the Equator again, the NORAD will have less to deal with.
    Military and security is only 33% of the overall US foreign aid with total ~$49B in 2016, or $16.17B: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-does-us-spend-its-foreign-aid  
    So, most of the remaining $32.83B could be used elsewhere if the Trump Admin. & US Senate cut it.
    Canada will also be affected by the radiation & economic fallout if the US is nuked, so it's in their interest to contribute more to the NORAD.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:46 am

    No system US has is capable of shooting down anything more than a glorified scud b.

    So don't get your hopes up.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: MiG-31DZ ASAT

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:13 am

    Maybe so, but future space based weapons will have even a better chance dealing with B/HSMs!
    An orbiting satellite was destroyed & 37 successful BM intercepts to date were done from ships: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/02/20/satellite.shootdown/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System#Flight_tests_to_date https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2508588.html
    There’s a very fine line already between ballistic missile interceptors and anti-satellite weapons, both of which are intended to hit relatively small objects at very high altitudes. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18283/lets-talk-about-that-mysterious-chinese-anti-ballistic-missile-launch


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:59 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote)

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