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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

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    Austin
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:19 am

    runaway wrote:
    You must be kidding! Its a homemade FAL, from the 1960`s. And i do not dislike indians, but their weapon capacity is very low.

    Yes it is possible that FAL must have infulenced in some way the INSAS design as IA has been operating it for 3 decades now , but its certainly not a home made FAL , it has its own vitrues and is built around NATO 5.45 rounds , uses modern materials and has proven its worth in combat , Oman even bought INSAS from India.

    For example, their homemade 125mm tank ammo, must be fired from outside the T-90 while using a remote. The ammo is so bad its danger of exploding the wrong time and in the wrong way.

    Yes the Indian Public Sector Manufacturer screwed the 125 mm ammo manufacturing and quality and hence it turned to be so bad that it would explode in the tank when it was fired.

    The entire lot of 60 -80 Thousand 125 mm rounds built by OFB was scrapped , Few Jawans did die when they were practising with OFB rounds when it exploded inside the tank

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:26 am

    Can some one tell me what is the distinguising feature of Sniper Rifle and say a assult rifle like AK-107 , why cant a good gun like AK-107 be a good sniper rifle with a good scope ?

    Why should there be a separate sniper rifle for general purpose use like SVD , why cant they make a assult rifle that double up as sniper when required and be as good as sniper.

    May be for special purpose extereme long range sniper rifle would make sense but for general purpose they can design a good assult rifle which is a good sniper rifle as well.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Hoof on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:33 am

    Austin wrote:Can some one tell me what is the distinguising feature of Sniper Rifle and say a assult rifle like AK-107 , why cant a good gun like AK-107 be a good sniper rifle with a good scope ?

    Why should there be a separate sniper rifle for general purpose use like SVD , why cant they make a assult rifle that double up as sniper when required and be as good as sniper.

    May be for special purpose extereme long range sniper rifle would make sense but for general purpose they can design a good assult rifle which is a good sniper rifle as well.

    well because at longer range, you gonna need more powerful round, because normal assault rifle round (lets say 5.45x39) going to lose its kinetic power more rapidly than larger round (like 7.62x54r)... also because assault rifle is not as accurate as a sniper rifle because of the shorter barrel and different requirements (ability to fire more rounds reliably vs. firing less rounds accurately) of course you can mount a sniper scope on AK if you need to, but its not what it was made for...

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:01 am

    Can some one identify these guns and scope ,found at mp.net

    Sniper
    Sniper Rifle
    Again some sniper

    The New Russian Army outfit looks cool Soldier with new outfit
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:06 am

    The photo with the Priest and the boy in it, the rifle in the Priests hands is this:

    OSV-96

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/osv-96-e.html

    As you can see it folds in the middle to make it easier to carry around and is a 12.7 x 108mm calibre weapon.

    The weapon on the table next to the boy is the KSVK or sometimes called the SVN-98 and is a bullpup bolt action 12.7 x 108mm calibre rifle:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/ksvk-e.html

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/svn9-e.html (experimental model).

    If you look carefully at the photo you posted the metal stub bar hanging down just in front of the trigger is actually the bolt to operate the mechanism.

    The second photo with the soldier holding the rifle, it is hard to say for sure but I think it might be a Lobaev rifle, look here and see what I mean:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/lobaevsvl-e.html
    Note it has a different muzzle brake but that is because the Lobaev SVL is in .408 Chey-tac calibre and this rifle might be a smaller less powerful round requiring a smaller muzzle brake and with a more conventional bipod design.

    The last weapon with the cute little girl is not actually a sniper rifle, it is an AS "Val" rifle in 9 x 39mm with a 20 round magazine and single and full auto capability, it is a suppressed weapon firing a subsonic very heavy round.

    http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/as-val-e.html

    The sniper equivelent of the Val is the Vintorez or VSS and it has a fixed wooden stock:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/vss-e.html

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:37 pm

    Thanks for that piece of information , your knowledge on rifles and weapons never cease to amaze me.

    I thought the one which the girl is holding is a plastic assultrifle Smile

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:47 am

    Here is nice article on Russian Spetsnaz Arms and Russian UAV , Garry will love this Smile

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  runaway on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:10 pm

    Austin wrote:Here is nice article on Russian Spetsnaz Arms and Russian UAV , Garry will love this Smile

    Arms

    Great work Austin, can you dig up something about the tank production and development?
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:55 am

    Thanks Austin, but the article on Spetsnaz weapons didn't include any weapons that were new to me. Sad

    I was hoping they might mention the new ADS bullpup rifle designed to be used underwater with special underwater ammo and also above water with standard 5.45mm ammo. It looks really cool, yet there is little information available about it except on world guns ru.

    The UAV stuff was very interesting, though it has an error in that it shows a missile on a trailer and the caption says it is the Tu-300. The only problem is that the missile on the trailer is an SA-1 SAM that is almost certainly used as a target missile for air defence training and is not a Tu-300 at all.

    I also liked the section on new developments in making small arms ammo... it was very interesting. The multilayer plastic wrapping and loading in clips should make loading mags quicker and easier. They looked like 15 round stripper clips, which means two clips to a current mag and 4 for a 60 round mag. I think this is a good step forward both in the sense that storage time is greatly increased, but also hand loading time of magazines is greatly reduced. I remember loading 30 round mags for my AK when that was still legal and it did take a while. Loading ammo into stripper clips and then loading stripper clips into mags is not faster, but getting ammo in stripper clips and loading them into mags is fast and convenient... I was a bit worried about the thought of having to load 60 rounds into one mag but with 4 x 15 round stripper clips it should be quick and easy.
    I have a few photos of Soviet and Russian soldiers standing around a table with hundreds of rounds of loose 5.45mm ammo in a pile loading rounds into mags one round at a time, so this will change that for the better.

    The title of the section on small arms ammo was suggesting the direction of development but the article just mentioned improved ammo that had already been developed and also mentioned the above improved packaging and information on the automation of cartridge production and how small mobile systems can be used in reverse to recycle components safely.

    I was hoping they were going to talk about their future plans like replacing the 7.62 x 54mm round with a more modern round... perhaps now that they are producing ammo in sealed packets they could start making caseless ammo sealed in ready to use disposable ammo containers, or at the very least plastic cased ammo with new propellent and primer types to make it smaller and lighter but with the same or better performance.

    I guess I am being unfair as they have been through the same drought as the rest of the Russian MIC.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:56 am

    New Pics of AK-200


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:08 am


    As for the climb and recoil problems, they stem from details
    in the design itself; correcting those would require structural
    improvements, at least as significant as in the AK 107/108 versions,
    where the recoil is weaker due to its more balanced automatic mechanism.
    Such changes would eventually require designers to generate a whole new
    design concept for the firearm, which is impossible in the current
    economic situation.

    He is contradicting himself... if they can produce the AK-107 and 108... which are basically AK-74Ms with balanced recoil mechanisms then why would a change to balanced recoil mechanisms require designers to generate a whole new design concept for the firearm?

    Surely if they can redesign the AK-74M into the AK-107 and 108 then they can redesign the AK-74M into an AK-200 which is basically an AK-74M with rails and a balanced recoil mechanism... if they can mass produce the AK-107 they can mass produce the AK-200.

    @Austin
    Interesting... the positioning of that rear iron sight suggests they are going for peep iron sights.
    It clearly retains the bayonet lug, which means the standard bayonet can be retained in service and the GP-30 under barrel grenade launcher, though perhaps they might adopt the GP-34 grenade launcher for this weapon.

    Most importantly look at the muzzle brake and where the gas port is it is barely 2cms!
    This means that it is very unlikely to have a traditional gas system as used on the standard AKs because gas tapped off that close to the muzzle would not give enough kick to operate the mechanism.
    This suggests it uses a balanced recoil mechanism.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:12 am

    The arrangement of the sights in this case is interesting... if that scope has no aiming reticle and is a night vision device the arrangement shown could be an attempt to use ironsights at night...

    The advantage of such a night vision device is that you can move it forward and fit a normal day scope behind it (removing or folding down the iron sights) so you zero in the day sight and then to shoot at night you attach the night sight in front and use the day sights reticule for aiming without having to zero the night sight as well. In the morning when the sun comes up you take off the night sight and use the standard optical sight again.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:32 am

    I wonder if they will make similar new equvelents of the other Kalashnikov weapons.

    ie the 9mm rail equipped balanced recoil PP-19-01 Vityaz SMG, a rail equipped balanced recoil 5.45mm AKS-74U, a rail equipped balanced recoil AK-105 carbine in 5.45mm, the AK-200 fits here, a long barrel rail equipped balanced recoil RPK-74M?

    Perhaps with the RPK-74M they could be even more radical and modify it to fire from an open bolt in full auto and closed bolt in semi automatic and use a belt feed.

    Something like the ARES Shrike for the M16?

    ie http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/ares-shrike-e.html

    Personally I would be interested in a bullpup belt fed conversion of an RPK-74 that uses a backpack mounted ammo store that can hold a thousand rounds of ready to use ammo with a feed mechanism to the rear of the gun.... Twisted Evil

    Of course I know that the concept of LMG goes out the window with a small calibre round and the best solution is in fact the Pecheneg.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:46 am

    Garry Check this news section , it has one additional pictures of scope

    http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/170111.shtml

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 am

    Garry reading around there is still no clarity on balanced recoil mechanism for AK-200 or AK-74-200 as some people like to call.

    We will have to wait for some confirmation on that front.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:58 am

    Thanks Austin... here is that last image cleaned up:

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:03 am



    Here is that first image again... cleaned up.
    As you can see I have marked it showing where the gas tube attaches to the barrel and where the end of the barrel actually ends.
    Forward of where the barrel ends is the muzzle attachment, which on the AK-74 is quite long.

    My argument is that in a conventional mechanism the gas system that reloads the weapon doesn't start operating till the projectile has passed where the gas is tapped off from the barrel and the gas system needs a distance where the gas is getting pressure from behind the bullet to where the bullet exits the barrel and pressure going into the gas system drops rapidly.

    Look at a standard AK like Hooch's gun posted previously in this thread to see that it needs a good distance to work or you need a completely different muzzle device as fitted to the AKS-74U.

    The AKS-74U has a muzzle device called a recoil booster which increases the back pressure on the gas system to ensure proper function of the gas system.

    This AK-200 doesn't have a recoil booster... and it would need one in its current configuration... except if it has a balanced recoil mechanism.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:53 am

    Garry you are the person with expertise in gun , so i do not have any argument to offer and I submit to what you say.

    I was just pointing to the fact that in general WWW the opinion is divided.

    I just wonder when would they release the specs of this new toy , perhaps send one to you for writing a review Very Happy
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:04 am

    Well let me just put this to the doubters... without a balanced recoil system... which they made in the AK-107 and AK-108 which means they can make it and mass produce it if need be without a completely new design, why would it take two years to test, trial and put into service the AK-200 which without a balanced recoil mechanism is simply an AK-74M with rails?

    Would they need trials just to add rails?

    Personally I am disappointed they have a peep rear sight... the older sights gave good enough accuracy out to about 150m and when shooting at targets beyond that instead of a peep iron sight they should have a low power scope option. At short range peep sights obscures your field of view and gives the shooter tunnel vision without the advantages of a scope.
    Yeah... people will b!tch about the short sight radius... but the sight radius of an AK sight includes the eye and rear and front sight elements... all of which are aligned to hit the target.
    The rifle with the absolute worst sight radius is the iron sight equipped version of the SA80 and they don't complain about it on that... in fact some soldiers prefer the iron sights as they give a better field of view than the scope does.
    There are lots of little cosmetic things they could do, like a hold open feature after the last shot is fired from a mag. I really don't care about suggestions to make the cocking handle ambidextrous... I shoot left handed and it suits me just fine.
    Demands for a quieter safety catch are ridiculous... the little bit of metal that sticks out for you to thumb down the selector can be pinched in both fingers and pulled out from the rifle to change its setting silently... sure it takes slightly more time, but if you are being sneaky then the extra time is worth it to not give yourself away. If there is a panic of urgency then you are probably in trouble already so a little clack will not make much difference.

    What else do people complain about?

    Ahh, yes accuracy, and sometimes even recoil... these complaints come from ignorants that think AKs still fire heavy 120 grain 7.62mm calibre slugs.
    The rifles in 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62mm calibre were tested with one round in the magazine each and recoil levels were something like 7 newtons for the 7.62, 6 newtons for the 5.56mm, and 3 newtons for the 5.45mm.
    Now part of that reduction for the 5.45mm round was the very efficient muzzle brake the AK-74 uses, but that is fair because that is the rifle it is fired from.

    I just wonder when would they release the specs of this new toy , perhaps send one to you for writing a review

    If only that were so... Cool

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:12 am

    Garry if you were proven right on balanced recoil for Ak-200 , I will owe you a beer Smile
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:22 am

    If I am wrong then the AK-200 will be the biggest disappointment ever... an AK-74M with rail mounted iron sights and a 60 round mag that could have been fitted to any 5.45mm AK.

    It is not like they can't make balanced recoil mechanisms or produce them... the AK-108/107 is evidence they can design them and presumably make them in bulk without a complete redesign.

    If a balanced recoil mechanism is too expensive then why spend any money at all right now, why not just keep making AK-74Ms with rails added and wait till something really new becomes available before designing something new and radical?

    Along with the 60 round mag I remember them talking about a 50 round model which presumably is also double stack but shorter, and also a 90 round mag which I might guess is a standard RPK-74M 45 shot mag that has been given the same treatment as the 30 round mag to make the 60 round mag.

    I have seen a drum design however that looked a little strange in that the drum itself was flat/horizontal and held 90 rounds but because it was flat was actually shorter than a 30 round mag for getting down into a low firing position.

    If you look on this page you will see a photo and in that photo from top to bottom is the drum I refer to above, a double stack 60 round mag and the bottom is an enormous single stack 7.62 x 39mm 100 round half moon clip.

    http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka202.html

    Based on the information in the boxes below the quad stack 60 round mag is the same size as a conventional 30 round mag and its height is given as 21cm. The flat drum mag is only 12 cms tall so you could get significantly lower while carrying 60 extra rounds compared to the normal 30 round mag or an extra 30 rounds if you have the quad stacked mag.

    I can just see it now... an AKS-74U with a 90 round drum....
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:15 am

    So what would be really new and radical?

    How about a liquid propellent rifle.

    Lets start with a bullpup design... this maximises the barrel length while keeping the rifle compact.

    The trigger can be electronic so it will be in front of the rear mounted bullet box but because it is electronic it can be slid forward and backwards as a way of adjusting the length of pull (ie distance between the trigger and the shoulder butt stock so if you are wearing bulky body armour you can slide the pistol grip back to make it easier to reach).

    The bullets and propellent will be separated with the projectiles in a box behind the pistol grip under the stock. There is no empty shell case though there will be a tray where unused rounds can be extracted and unused propellent vented.

    The propellent tanks will be under the fore grip area around the barrel as a coolant. The propellent will be separated into two components where each component will not explode or be flammable on their own, they will need to be combined to combust as propellent. It will be a binary propellent.

    Propellent will be moved around the gun in tubes and the measures will be precisely controlled by a small computer that will wirelessly connect to the operators super soldier kit... ie like Felin.

    The bullet holder will carry at least two or three types of projectiles with shorter light for close range combat and longer heavier bullets for longer range shooting. The loading mechanism will use range data from the sighting system to determine range, the user will enter target information and the rifle will determine what projectile and propellent load to use.

    It is possible that different calibre barrels could be used for instance a 9mm barrel with a rate of twist that suits short heavy pistol bullets for short range high rate of fire applications for self defence and 6.5mm calibre barrels with a rate of twist that suits very long very heavy bullets for long range shooting etc.

    Cover it with rails for pistol grips and bipods and lights and lasers, but have a built in scope with a thermal channel and zoom capability with a built in ballistic computer and laser range finder.

    Problems would be unloading rounds without firing the weapon, and the limited range of projectiles that would be effective as the barrel can't change calibre or rifling twist rates... so the rifling will suit a specific weight of projectile and of course one calibre.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:49 am

    How balanced recoil works


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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:52 am

    I just wonder if Balanced Recoil mechanism can be implemented on Tank Main Guns , to improve accuracy,higher rate of fire and recoil ?
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:06 am

    No.

    The balanced recoil mechanism only works well in a weapon like the AK design because it has a heavy bolt carrier that slams back and forth during recoil.

    One of the ways the AK gets it reliability is from the 5 to one ratio in weight when comparing the bolt with the bolt carrier... with the bolt being more than 5 times the mass of the bolt so when the bolt carrier is blown back by high pressure gas tapped off from the barrel it has a lot of energy to rotate and unlock the bolt and then drag the bolt back with the empty shell case to the back of the receiver.
    This extra energy means that even if the weapon is dirty the power of the bolt coming back will overcome any resistance created by dirt etc and the mechanism will function.

    The obvious problem is that the bolt carrier becomes quite heavy and as it slams back and forth during firing it tends to move the rifle around alot.

    The Soviets weren't idiots... they knew exactly what was happening. They felt a reliable gun was better than a more accurate on.

    In the SVD design it uses the same gas system but the piston is much thinner and smaller and lighter and only moves a few cms and is not attached to the bolt carrier, so the bolt carrier is much smaller and lighter, so has less effect on increasing felt recoil... which is just as well because the 7.62 x 54R round has plenty of that.

    Your average tank gun doesn't have a big heavy mechanism that absorbs recoil and automatically reloads the main gun. The recoil is largely absorbed directly by the turret ring though the barrel and breechblock sometimes do move back with recoil.

    This balanced recoil mechanism redesigns the bolt carrier so that the mass of the carrier going forward balances the mass of the bolt carrier going back under recoil and the opposite when the bolt carrier goes forward to reload the weapon. With the effect of the bolt and bolt carrier slamming back and forth eliminated the old recoil felt by the firer is the projectile and gas pushing it, because there is no projectile or gas blast going the opposite way to balance it.
    In comparison the recoil of the bullet and gas is negligible compared to the bolt slapping around on a conventional AK.

    Note AR rifles also have bolts and bolt carriers that slam back and forth during firing, it is just that they are by design lighter with no gas piston at all and the gas tapped from the barrel hitting the face of the bolt carrier directly.

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