Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22085
    Points : 22629
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:25 am

    I suppose that button is the safety.

    It would make sense... in a civilian version without full auto or three round burst capability then you just need a two position selector for safe and fire, so a push button above the pistol grip where you can pretty much reach it from both sides makes sense and should be rather simple.

    Pushed through to one side it can lock the trigger, while pushed through the other side it can unlock the trigger an enable firing. With a right handed grip pushing the button in on the left side for fire means you enable firing with your thumb which should be easy to do and check with your fingers.

    The only real issue I can see is that when you have the rifle slung over your shoulder a press button might get pressed inadvertently while you are carrying the rifle leading potentially to the rifle coming off safe without you knowing, but then you should always treat a rifle as loaded and check the safety is on all the time anyway.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  nemrod on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:39 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 23813568

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 3357331[/quote]

    This new AK-200, seems to be pretty, even though, she is far to be the legend AK-47, and I think, it won't have the same success of its prestigious ancestor-hey guys, do not forget, nearly 200 millions Kalashnikow familly. In the history, it is incredible-.
    I think if a modern assault rifle is not abble to perfor the US's armor's soldiers-kevlar-, it is useless. Does this assault riffle perfor the US soldiers armor ?
    If yes, I think this assault riffle will have a great success, perhaps AK-47. Let's hope!

    Regards.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22085
    Points : 22629
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:48 am

    The AK-200 may not enter service.

    The AK12 has better chances.

    AKs produced is probably closer to 100 million.

    Modern body armour only protects the front chest and rear chest area from rifle calibre bullets. Shots to the lower body and head should penetrate.

    Penetration of the 5.56mm is no better than the 5.45mm, and is inferior to the 7.6 x 39mm AP ammo.
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2180
    Points : 2174
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:49 am

    GarryB wrote:The AK-200 may not enter service.

    The AK12 has better chances.

    AKs produced is probably closer to 100 million.

    Modern body armour only protects the front chest and rear chest area from rifle calibre bullets. Shots to the lower body and head should penetrate.

    Penetration of the 5.56mm is no better than the 5.45mm, and is inferior to the 7.6 x 39mm AP ammo.
    AK-200 never existed. It was showpiece. That's what new head of Izhmash said. Ak-12 is the real deal and new cal is likely to be developed. Still it's not guarantee that army gonna buy it. It was last interview that shed light and russian gun community were again right :-)
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1442
    Points : 1603
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:00 am

    Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?
    Mr.Kalishnikov47
    Mr.Kalishnikov47

    Posts : 293
    Points : 336
    Join date : 2012-02-25
    Age : 31
    Location : U.S.A

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:57 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?

    Imho, yes.
    nemrod
    nemrod

    Posts : 828
    Points : 1326
    Join date : 2012-09-11

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  nemrod on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    AKs produced is probably closer to 100 million.

    In far past, during the 80's, I read military's magazine saying AK's familly's production is not far from 200 millions units.

    Modern body armour only protects the front chest and rear chest area from rifle calibre bullets. Shots to the lower body and head should penetrate.

    The AK-47'success story is mostly because, she was a very efficient anti-imperialist's weapon. For example during Vietnam's war, the AK-47 was very efficient against US GI's, and many were dead, if not completly handicaped -far from angelism, this war was triggered by US Imperialist agression, and it required resistance's response-.
    Hence it triggered a public a shock, that produced a demonstration against imperialist war, and US withdrawed its forces from Vietnam.

    During a fight between resistance and US-imperialist soldiers, you have many stress, and not all resistance'soldiers are sharpshooters.
    If they have a chance to reach some body'area, this is a performance, even more, US war machine sends immediatly, Apache helicopters, and fighter-bombers.
    For that reason if you have a have an assault rifle that perfor the body armour -ceramic Bulletproof vest-, it must be helpfull. Because a shot in the chest, means at least a grave handicap for US soldiers.


    PS: Please do not understand what I mean by a rascist anti-american feeling. This is not my case, moreover US people was not consulting for a war, they will have to accept at any price, and US population is victim as everywhere.
    I mean resistance movements, in a war, against professional remorless US soldiers serving the Imperialist ideal, in order to reduce all people in the world into pax america. Wall Street order.
    Moreover, resistance movements has nothing to see with barbaric attacks against innoncent people, either in New York, London, Madrid, Moscow, Boudienovsk, Beslan -several hundreds children were slaugthered-, Bagdad, Balli, Najaf, Damascus.
    Here I mean a fair resistance as in Iraq for example against US war machine killing since 1991, several millions of iraqians, either civils, children, old persons.
    In their barbaric human rights slogan, it is better to use drone that corwardly slaughtered at least 4.000 people since 2009, and several millions of people with US aircrafts as Phantom, B-52 using bombs -sometimes chemical- against cities as Bagdad, Hanoi, Hiroshima-nuclear-, Nagazaki, Tokyo, Dresden, Berlin, Koln, Belgrad, Gaza-israelis phosphor-, Saida, Beyrouth etc...
    Seeing that, a true resistance soldier with its poor frail Kalashnikow has little chances against the barbarics imperialists.



    Last edited by nemrod on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1442
    Points : 1603
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:28 pm

    Mr.Kalishnikov47 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?

    Imho, yes.
    Well that completely sucks
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2180
    Points : 2174
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:34 pm

    nemrod wrote:This new AK-200, seems to be pretty, even though, she is far to be the legend AK-47, and I think, it won't have the same success of its prestigious ancestor
    I don't think that You can revolutionize weapon market with rails and different butt-stock. It was done before by so many companies some of them where only specialised on Soviet weapon modifications. Can't really bash the weapon as it's still under development but I really think Izhmash can do better.
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?
    There is no clear answer, It might be that AK-74 will stay for a while or will be slowly phased out with new AK. Changes wont happen suddenly same with infamous deal with new uniforms.

    I think if a modern assault rifle is not abble to perfor the US's armor's soldiers-kevlar-, it is useless. Does this assault riffle perfor the US soldiers armor ?
    If yes, I think this assault riffle will have a great success, perhaps AK-47. Let's hope!
    Since when Russians have to be worried about shooting US soldiers? Or what was the last time US soldier shot at Russian? You are talking about it as person with bulletproof vest is like a tank with 600 rha and only top-attack weapons can kill him. In real life if in unfortunate even You'll get shot in the chest by 5.45 from lets say 100 meters most likely Your ribs will be really messy. 7.62x39 would make them look like cornflake as it packs heavier punch. Bullet proof vest only makes Your chances of survivability bit higher, it really only helps in long distances and only if the bullet looses velocity. Don't forget some bullets can hit You on angle or places that have a gap. It doesn't make You invincible and if good luck taking it off with burning tracer round in it.
    By the way since when US body armour became the best? UK is leading in this and Russians are not really underdogs too so US armour is irrelevant.
    PS: Please do not understand what I mean by a rascist anti-american feeling.
    There is no need to bash US all the time, Russia is not ideal country too and but with far lesser scale of screw ups and double standards. I think US has more common with Russia then some if it's allies. Afghanistan transit, War on Terror, War on Drugs and etc. Politics by both countries are very questionable and I dislike current US policies too even if I think that NATO is good for my country as we don't need to keep big army and we get some support.
    GarryB wrote:Penetration of the 5.56mm is no better than the 5.45mm, and is inferior to the 7.6 x 39mm AP ammo.
    I didn't know that. I thought otherwise. Infact in our army we employ 3 calibres for 3 rifles. 7.62×39, 7.62×51 and 5.56×45 and had chance to shoot all of them but I have no real idea about penetration. I always thought that 5.45 has better penetration than it's predecessor.



    Last edited by Regular on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Sorry for my rant, I was posting with my phone so last text disappeared.)
    avatar
    SWAT Pointman

    Posts : 153
    Points : 161
    Join date : 2012-08-10

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:18 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?
    I think it's almost certain they will keep using AK-74's for at least 10-15 years. The Russians have said a lot of AK-74's are still in good working order. The AK-74 is only slightly inferior, if not on par with most modern assault rifles, so there's not much reason to change. The most that will happen is an upgrade for the AK-74 and AK-74M with rails to make it more suitable for modern acessories and optics. Yeah, Spetsnaz might get the newer rifles.

    GarryB wrote:
    Penetration of the 5.56mm is no better than the 5.45mm, and is inferior to the 7.6 x 39mm AP ammo.
    It depends on what you're shooting at. The UK did tests back in the 1960's and they found the smaller calibers had better inherent ability at penetrating body armor compared to larger ones. Against barriers however, larger calibers seem to do better.
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1442
    Points : 1603
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:36 pm

    Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.
    avatar
    SWAT Pointman

    Posts : 153
    Points : 161
    Join date : 2012-08-10

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:26 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.
    They claim that the AK-74M surpassed the M16 even in accuracy with a test Izmash did recently. So I guess it would be equivalent to the Famas and L85 in accuracy. If the test was fair or not, I don't know. http://lenta.ru/news/2013/02/12/rivals/
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2180
    Points : 2174
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Regular on Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:48 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.
    German bullpup rifle? Never heard of new one, please inform me, mate Smile Famas is outdated design with loads of flaws. It's about to be replaced. Flaws are so big that you can even forget about talking about accuracy. L85 after being fixed by Hekler Koch wasn't that bad, but is far away from being called super modern or super accurate, as they had to fix god damn thing to make it up to date. Belgian rifles You say? F2000 unproven and vulnerable design, FN Scar on other hand is reasonable platform and truly something built with sense as far as I've read about it.
    Most reasonable design in my opinion is CZ 805 Bren 2 and check this thing, no science fiction stuff, just good platform.
    Just one thing about accuracy, even old polish AK in good hands can do wonders. Not talking about myself, but seen a guy doing 3 moa without problems. By the way our G36 series had very good reliability, only problem we found out was it's out of date optics. So we got our own version without them. It works like a charm. Check this picture, it was taken in my brigade and our russian "enemy" is checking this rifle https://redcdn.net/ihimizer/img10/6821/97385751.jpg
    Russians have access to western rifles and it's not rocket science. They have know-how too. It's up to MOD give certain requirements and eventually ORDER the weapon.

    They claim that the AK-74M surpassed the M16 even in accuracy with a test Izmash did recently. So I guess it would be equivalent to the Famas and L85 in accuracy. If the test was fair or not, I don't know. http://lenta.ru/news/2013/02/12/rivals/
    So You think Izmash would say otherwise? Comparing AK-74M to Vietnam era M16 is like comparing F4 vs SU-27Sm:D I dare them to compare with M16A4. And they should think forward and don't compete with dying M-16. US army is already choosing new rifle. Same like with Russian army we mortals never know why competitions are over and no guns where chosen.
    avatar
    SWAT Pointman

    Posts : 153
    Points : 161
    Join date : 2012-08-10

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:43 pm

    Regular wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.
    German bullpup rifle? Never heard of new one, please inform me, mate Smile Famas is outdated design with loads of flaws. It's about to be replaced. Flaws are so big that you can even forget about talking about accuracy. L85 after being fixed by Hekler Koch wasn't that bad, but is far away from being called super modern or super accurate, as they had to fix god damn thing to make it up to date. Belgian rifles You say? F2000 unproven and vulnerable design, FN Scar on other hand is reasonable platform and truly something built with sense as far as I've read about it.
    Most reasonable design in my opinion is CZ 805 Bren 2 and check this thing, no science fiction stuff, just good platform.
    Just one thing about accuracy, even old polish AK in good hands can do wonders. Not talking about myself, but seen a guy doing 3 moa without problems. By the way our G36 series had very good reliability, only problem we found out was it's out of date optics. So we got our own version without them. It works like a charm. Check this picture, it was taken in my brigade and our russian "enemy" is checking this rifle https://redcdn.net/ihimizer/img10/6821/97385751.jpg
    Russians have access to western rifles and it's not rocket science. They have know-how too. It's up to MOD give certain requirements and eventually ORDER the weapon.

    They claim that the AK-74M surpassed the M16 even in accuracy with a test Izmash did recently. So I guess it would be equivalent to the Famas and L85 in accuracy. If the test was fair or not, I don't know. http://lenta.ru/news/2013/02/12/rivals/
    So You think Izmash would say otherwise? Comparing AK-74M to Vietnam era M16 is like comparing F4 vs SU-27Sm:D I dare them to compare with M16A4. And they should think forward and don't compete with dying M-16. US army is already choosing new rifle. Same like with Russian army we mortals never know why competitions are over and no guns where chosen.
    The same could be said if Colt did the same tests. These types of tests need to be done by independent testing companies. M16A2,M4, or the M16A4 would be fair game to compare the AK-74M to. They didn't specify which model of M16 they used. The US military hasn't chosen any new rifle yet. They are currently trialing different rifles right now which might replace the M4, but it's doubtful.
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1442
    Points : 1603
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:21 am

    Regular wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.
    German bullpup rifle? Never heard of new one, please inform me, mate Smile Famas is outdated design with loads of flaws. It's about to be replaced. Flaws are so big that you can even forget about talking about accuracy. L85 after being fixed by Hekler Koch wasn't that bad, but is far away from being called super modern or super accurate, as they had to fix god damn thing to make it up to date. Belgian rifles You say? F2000 unproven and vulnerable design, FN Scar on other hand is reasonable platform and truly something built with sense as far as I've read about it.
    Most reasonable design in my opinion is CZ 805 Bren 2 and check this thing, no science fiction stuff, just good platform.
    Just one thing about accuracy, even old polish AK in good hands can do wonders. Not talking about myself, but seen a guy doing 3 moa without problems. By the way our G36 series had very good reliability, only problem we found out was it's out of date optics. So we got our own version without them. It works like a charm. Check this picture, it was taken in my brigade and our russian "enemy" is checking this rifle https://redcdn.net/ihimizer/img10/6821/97385751.jpg
    Russians have access to western rifles and it's not rocket science. They have know-how too. It's up to MOD give certain requirements and eventually ORDER the weapon.

    They claim that the AK-74M surpassed the M16 even in accuracy with a test Izmash did recently. So I guess it would be equivalent to the Famas and L85 in accuracy. If the test was fair or not, I don't know. http://lenta.ru/news/2013/02/12/rivals/
    So You think Izmash would say otherwise? Comparing AK-74M to Vietnam era M16 is like comparing F4 vs SU-27Sm:D I dare them to compare with M16A4. And they should think forward and don't compete with dying M-16. US army is already choosing new rifle. Same like with Russian army we mortals never know why competitions are over and no guns where chosen.
    A sofr the new german and belgian rifles, i ment the G36 and F-2000. After what you've told me about them it it doesnt mean that looking like weapon from the 22 century means it has 22 century performance. before I used to believe that the bullpup design was completely superior giving completely better accuracy and being more compact. But can you tell what exactly are the design flaws of the F2000. Saying that its not good is like those US fanboys that the russian aircraft and tanks are crap just because they're not combat proven.
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2180
    Points : 2174
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Regular on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:52 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:..
    G36 is not really new and it's not bullpup, I believe first prototypes where shown in late 70ties, but development was stopped. It's a good rifle with conventional design. Basic version has outdated doubled optics that are bad at winter time, gets misty, hard to clean if mud gets on them. It's accurate, easy controllable.
    F2000 looks like it's from the sci-fi movie. Maybe it's me, but I can't look at it seriously. I don't know F2000 design flaws, Famas does have them, but famas been for awhile. FN2000 main drawback it's complexity. Compare it to Fn Scar from same company. FN2000 definitely not the rifle type Russia needs.
    Bullpup doesn't give You best accuracy, what it does, it lets You to keep barrel in the gun and firing mechanism in the back so weawpon is more compact but it retains same qualities as having longer barrel. And what US fanboys say it's irrelevant, it's 20 years of endless tests and they can't choose new weapon.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22085
    Points : 22629
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:11 am

    AK-200 never existed. It was showpiece. That's what new head of Izhmash said.

    It seems that Izhmash alone was working on at least 4 different rifle configurations, with the four driving ideas behind them being a modified AK-74 whose modification is not that drastic ie AK-200 with rails added and adjustable length stock, but standard AK controls, a radical change ie AK12 with new controls and almost everything changed to make it easier to use with commonality of same mags and bayonet and grenade launcher, but otherwise different.. though no balanced recoil mechanism, A more expensive and complicated option of a modified AK-107 with rails and balanced recoil mechanism... I would like to point out that the balanced mechanism is not new... there were balanced rifle mechanisms in the 1970s competition to replace the AK that resulted in the AK-74 winning on cost and ease of production and use. The fourth option was the cheapest and is often referred to as the AK-74M3 which is an AK-74M with rails and extendible stock added.

    This means that from just one company they are offering a range of choices and capabilities and a range of prices and levels of complexity.

    Many of the features of the AK-200 and the AK-74M3 can be achieved through the addition of after market parts so special forces are probably already using similar weapons.

    Ak-12 is the real deal and new cal is likely to be developed. Still it's not guarantee that army gonna buy it.

    The Russian Army has committed itself to having 70% new equipment by 2020. The AK-74 is not perfect, but it is also a very good weapon already. The features of the AK12 largely make it easier to use and easier to add and remove items to make it even better.

    The main question is... is it worth the extra money... does it do what it claims on the box.

    Is there a big chance that the russian infantry's cold war AK-74s will remain their main weapon for the next 2-3 decades and only a few spetsnaz brigades will be equipped with anything more modern?

    No.

    The Russian Army has its new Super Soldier program and it is looking for a weapon family to add to the suite. They will want an updated rifle to hand a thermal weapon sight upon.

    In far past, during the 80's, I read military's magazine saying AK's familly's production is not far from 200 millions units.

    Lots of numbers are bandied about, but even including clones I doubt 200 million as a figure.

    In the 1980s it was closer to about 75 million, so I would doubt 200 now.

    The AK-47'success story is mostly because, she was a very efficient anti-imperialist's weapon. For example during Vietnam's war, the AK-47 was very efficient against US GI's, and many were dead, if not completly handicaped -far from angelism, this war was triggered by US Imperialist agression, and it required resistance's response-.

    The AK is a weapon and works in the hands of imperialist and nationalist alike. Simple and reliable and effective.

    For that reason if you have a have an assault rifle that perfor the body armour -ceramic Bulletproof vest-, it must be helpfull. Because a shot in the chest, means at least a grave handicap for US soldiers.

    The vast majority of casualties in war are not from aimed fire... most bullet wounds come from shots delivered by machineguns and directed "to whom it may concern" rather than with anyones name in particular. By far the greatest cause of casualties is from shrapnel, which is why they call them flak vests. Desert Storm was one of the first actions with NATO forces where 40mm grenade use exceeded 7.62 x 51mm use. I rather suspect in Afghanistan that might not be so true due to the increased use of DMR and GPMGs, but generally a group of enemy forces 1-1.5km away it is much more effective to fire a burst of 20-30 grenades than 40-50 rounds of small arms fire.

    against professional remorless US soldiers serving the Imperialist ideal, in order to reduce all people in the world into pax america. Wall Street order.

    Many US soldiers in the Vietnam war were conscripts...

    Can't really bash the weapon as it's still under development but I really think Izhmash can do better.

    They seem, in my opinion, to be covering all obvious upgrade options. The one we haven't seen of course is the from scratch total from a blank sheet of paper design... and that, I think, will really be the only thing that blocks the AK12 from entering service.

    The problem is that such a design should take a while to develop and perfect... and ideally would use a new calibre to maximise its performance. It would preferably be a family of weapons to replace existing types, which means multi calibre too.

    There is no clear answer, It might be that AK-74 will stay for a while or will be slowly phased out with new AK. Changes wont happen suddenly same with infamous deal with new uniforms.

    True, but just like the new uniforms... it is only a matter of time before they get it right and put the new product into full production as the new standard rifle/uniform etc.

    Since when Russians have to be worried about shooting US soldiers? Or what was the last time US soldier shot at Russian?

    Very good questions. Russian soldiers should be protected from bullets it might encounter which includes its own. Protective vests should stop as much as possible without being to heavy. Bullets need to be effective.

    Politics by both countries are very questionable and I dislike current US policies too even if I think that NATO is good for my country as we don't need to keep big army and we get some support.

    The US has very high moral standards... it is just a shame it does not follow its own standards as much as it expects everyone else to.

    I didn't know that. I thought otherwise. Infact in our army we employ 3 calibres for 3 rifles. 7.62×39, 7.62×51 and 5.56×45 and had chance to shoot all of them but I have no real idea about penetration. I always thought that 5.45 has better penetration than it's predecessor.

    Well it has and it hasn't. The light high velocity rounds have better penetration on paper (ie they will penetrate more armour) but can be easily deflected by layers or other objects on the way to the target. Think in terms of hitting a windshield... a 5.45mm will penetrate easily, but its path might be deflected so much the bullet might not hit the target behind the glass. The 7.62 x 39mm has a much heavier bullet that tends to continue straight after penetration, as does the 7.62 x 51mm... only obviously more so with the much more powerful round. Also after penetration at reduced velocities the larger calibre heavier bullets retain more energy than the smaller calibre rounds which rely on velocity for most of their effect.

    I think it's almost certain they will keep using AK-74's for at least 10-15 years. The Russians have said a lot of AK-74's are still in good working order. The AK-74 is only slightly inferior, if not on par with most modern assault rifles, so there's not much reason to change. The most that will happen is an upgrade for the AK-74 and AK-74M with rails to make it more suitable for modern acessories and optics. Yeah, Spetsnaz might get the newer rifles.

    The special forces seem to have been consulted on the development of the AK12 so I suspect they will be the first users whether the Russian Army adopts them or not.
    I think new rifles will enter service over the next 5 years, simply to update the inventory and to get optics into service more rapidly as part of their future soldier programme.

    Is the Ak-74 even equivalent in accuracy to the FAMAS or L85? If not then how can it be on par with the new belgian and german bullpup assault rifles. Reliability is only one aspect of the performance of an assault rifle and russians have been focusing on. Being a few % less likely to jam isnt a huge advantage. IMO having good rate of fire and accuracy are lot more important thatn being able to fire after being kicked and rinsed in mud.

    Would suggest you take a more realistic look at weapon design practicalities. Having some super accurate sniper rifle for an assault rifle costs extra money... money that is wasted when the bullet it fires is not lethal beyond about 400m or so. Being able to hit a fly at 200m is a waste of energy and ammo as most soldiers in real combat will not be capable of seeing such small targets at such ranges let alone aiming at them.

    Enemy soldiers will be wearing camouflage which breaks up their shape, they will be moving as fast as they can from cover to cover... and most importantly they will be firing back and you will most likely be tired and hungry. There is no point in handing that soldier a rifle that can kill at 900m if you don't also give them the match quality ammo they will need and the high power optics and bipod and laser rangefinder to actually hit the target. Very high power optics would be needed just to make sure you can correctly identify targets at such ranges so you don't start killing civilians or your own guys.

    They claim that the AK-74M surpassed the M16 even in accuracy with a test Izmash did recently. So I guess it would be equivalent to the Famas and L85 in accuracy. If the test was fair or not, I don't know.

    Peter K Kolikas, editor of SOF mag said the AK-100 series rifle he tested in the 1990s was as accurate as any out of the box M16 rifle he had ever fired.

    US army is already choosing new rifle. Same like with Russian army we mortals never know why competitions are over and no guns where chosen.

    US Army has been "choosing" a new rifle since the 1970s. It has spent enormous amounts of money and had lots of competitions but the results so far have not been significant enough to warrant the purchase of a new rifle... could say the same about the AK as the AK-74 is just a new calibre AKM.

    You need to decide what you want... a reliable effective rifle and is easy to use and easy to attach equipment to... you could claim that is the AK12, but then you could easily claim that is also the AK-74M3, or Ak-107M.

    The bullpup layout gives you a compact rifle design without cutting down the barrel.

    With modern small calibres relying on velocity for effect on target a long barrel is critical, but to make the rifle short and handy the bullpup layout maximises barrel length while still getting a compact design.

    The three rifles I am most interested in currently are the AK12 and AK-107M, and the ADS... the latter has been adopted by the VDV and presumably the Russian Naval Infantry will adopt it too as it can be used underwater. Its bullpup design results in a small compact weapon with a reported effective range of 600m.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Ak-12_10
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1812
    Points : 1963
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:26 pm

    And here is a video of the presentation of the new models:
    Enjoy Very Happy

    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 2180
    Points : 2174
    Join date : 2013-03-10
    Location : Western Hemisphere.. mostly

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:29 pm

    Wow, SVU looks so light and compact. Doesn't look far hitting weapon, but looks good. Young guy mentioned that it has some kind minuses. Bullet ejection can hit Your face or smth.
    But I'm not impressed with AK-12. Hope they are working on it.
    Anyways, was kinda sad to hear them say that military is not very interested in their weapons and they are only purchasing small batches of other weapons
    avatar
    Austin

    Posts : 7397
    Points : 7794
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:42 pm

    This is for Garry Smile

    4th generation of Kalashnikovs
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22085
    Points : 22629
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2013 2:00 pm

    Wow, SVU looks so light and compact. Doesn't look far hitting weapon, but looks good. Young guy mentioned that it has some kind minuses. Bullet ejection can hit Your face or smth.

    It clearly has the SVD mechanism, which means shell cases are ejected out the right hand side, so if you try to shoot it left handed you would be empty hot shell cases in the face. The ADS in comparison has a tube where extracted cases are blown forward and out far enough forward so that you can fire left or right handed without adjustment without getting hot brass in the face.

    I would suspect its design goals would be for much better accuracy but likely for a similar range to the conventional SVD... in other words to 600m or so.

    They would likely have bolt action rifles like SV-98 for 1,000m ranges and the 338LM calibre rifles for 1,500m shots, so there is no need for this rifle to shoot 1,000m. despite my comment above... Embarassed

    But I'm not impressed with AK-12. Hope they are working on it.

    What would you change... to me they have fixed all the problem areas?

    BTW the AK12SN sounds interesting... a modular weapon family in a range of calibres... they mention 20 different barrel/calibre combinations.

    Anyways, was kinda sad to hear them say that military is not very interested in their weapons and they are only purchasing small batches of other weapons

    They probably haven't budgeted for new small arms at this time as they already seem to have quite a few rifles in stock.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20130430/180913155/Russian-Military-May-Soon-Adopt-New-Kalashikov-Assault-Rifle.html

    I suspect Russian special forces will adopt the AK12SN unless it is fundamentally flawed as it seems to be exactly what they want.
    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 886
    Points : 1044
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Sujoy on Wed May 01, 2013 2:38 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Kalash10
    avatar
    SWAT Pointman

    Posts : 153
    Points : 161
    Join date : 2012-08-10

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  SWAT Pointman on Wed May 01, 2013 10:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Wow, SVU looks so light and compact. Doesn't look far hitting weapon, but looks good. Young guy mentioned that it has some kind minuses. Bullet ejection can hit Your face or smth.

    It clearly has the SVD mechanism, which means shell cases are ejected out the right hand side, so if you try to shoot it left handed you would be empty hot shell cases in the face. The ADS in comparison has a tube where extracted cases are blown forward and out far enough forward so that you can fire left or right handed without adjustment without getting hot brass in the face.

    I would suspect its design goals would be for much better accuracy but likely for a similar range to the conventional SVD... in other words to 600m or so.

    They would likely have bolt action rifles like SV-98 for 1,000m ranges and the 338LM calibre rifles for 1,500m shots, so there is no need for this rifle to shoot 1,000m. despite my comment above... Embarassed

    But I'm not impressed with AK-12. Hope they are working on it.

    What would you change... to me they have fixed all the problem areas?

    BTW the AK12SN sounds interesting... a modular weapon family in a range of calibres... they mention 20 different barrel/calibre combinations.

    Anyways, was kinda sad to hear them say that military is not very interested in their weapons and they are only purchasing small batches of other weapons

    They probably haven't budgeted for new small arms at this time as they already seem to have quite a few rifles in stock.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20130430/180913155/Russian-Military-May-Soon-Adopt-New-Kalashikov-Assault-Rifle.html

    I suspect Russian special forces will adopt the AK12SN unless it is fundamentally flawed as it seems to be exactly what they want.
    The article is a bit too optimistic. Even if the trials are successful and the AK-12 passes with flying colors, that doesn't mean they have to adopt it.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22085
    Points : 22629
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 02, 2013 3:51 am

    The article is a bit too optimistic. Even if the trials are successful and the AK-12 passes with flying colors, that doesn't mean they have to adopt it.

    True, it is optimistic, but as the Russian military has adopted a range of new systems in the last 5 years and has a stated goal of replacing 70% of all equipment by 2020 I think it is not too optimistic.

    I suspect the special forces will likely adopt a modular AK12SN simply because they seem to have a hand in its development and the development of the AK12 so it is probably exactly what they want.

    The AK12 is a family of weapons likely intended to replace current 5.45mm and 7.62 x 54mm calibre weapons and we really haven't seen any other weapon family that is being developed that can compete... which is not to say a rival does not exist.

    Lets face it... they have complained about the shortcomings of the AK in the mid 2000s when everything was being criticised as being still Soviet in design. The AK12 is rather different enough from the AK-74 to be called a new weapon, though not as radical as the ADS.

    Equally on the face of it the VS-121 could be considered an SVU with rails, but the SVU was not an Army weapon... it was a police weapon where the range of engagement requirement was reduced, and the demands for a smaller more compact weapon was the main over riding feature. This means the barrel was shortened and the bullpup layout adopted, with the result that the muzzle blast became horrendous so a muzzle attachment to reduce muzzle blast became necessary.

    The VS-121 is clearly also a shortened version of the SVD in a bullpup configuration, but I rather doubt the Russian Army would be satisfied with a rifle designed for 400m shooting. The barrel might actually be shorter than the original SVD but it is clearly thicker and a stronger barrel often offers better accuracy than a thin long barrel. It clearly has rails and a new scope with a fairly large objective lens so I would expect at least a 6X and more likely a 10X magnification, which could be considered further evidence that this rifle is for the 600-800m engagement range, which for most of the time is easily enough.

    Despite comments on this thread having a rifle that will shoot to 1,000m is one thing... actually being able to detect targets, identify them as hostile and actually engage them is not as easy as you might think... even with a stationary target with no cross wind... unless the target is a car.
    KRATOS1133
    KRATOS1133

    Posts : 28
    Points : 41
    Join date : 2011-08-11
    Location : Algeria

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Sat May 18, 2013 4:20 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 34932248394637642391027031882883709n

    Sponsored content

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 21 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:36 pm