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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:09 am

    Boy am I gonna be sad to see the AK-74M go, boy do I love that rifle. cry Oh well though I trust the great designers in Russia to come out with something equally amazing.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:43 am

    I think the best attempt so far is the AK-12 but they are talking about a modular family of weapons that you can change between like changing the barrel of a GPMG, with different calibre and barrel length options which sounds interesting.

    I also like the ADS, which looks like an excellent weapon that has been accepted by the VDV, but we don't know if it is going to be a specialist weapon or a standard assault rifle. It is certainly compact enough and the ability to fire underwater is pretty unique amongst world powers.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think the best attempt so far is the AK-12 but they are talking about a modular family of weapons that you can change between like changing the barrel of a GPMG, with different calibre and barrel length options which sounds interesting.

    I also like the ADS, which looks like an excellent weapon that has been accepted by the VDV, but we don't know if it is going to be a specialist weapon or a standard assault rifle. It is certainly compact enough and the ability to fire underwater is pretty unique amongst world powers.

    Yes the AK-12 and the ADS are both very interesting rifles. As far as the ADS goes I don't see it becoming a standard issue rifle, I think it's going to be more on the specialist side, being issued to some recon companies and probably some Spetsnaz units. I just can't see any reason for a unit operating way up in the mountains of the Caucasus to have any need of an assault rifle with underwater capabilities. I guess we'll just have to see though.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:54 pm

    But the thing is that it is not a compromised design like say the APS which is only useful for underwater use.

    The ADS is a very compact assault rifle with a cocking handle that can be used left or right handed with the safety and fire selector on both sides of the weapon that has an empty shell case ejection system designed so that you can shoot it left or right handed without adjustment, and the makers claim it is accurate to 600m.

    It has a built in grenade launcher and rails to add more crap easily.

    For the Marines it can do the job of the APS and AK, but if it is good enough for the VDV to adopt it then it must be pretty good as a standard rifle too.

    I suspect the VDV like it because it is compact and very short yet is clearly accurate enough to be used as a rifle too because I can't really see them using the under water capacity much... except possibly as an ambush in rivers...

    It will be interesting to see which weapons make it, and of course with the political power of some companies the best rifle may not always win... but it didn't help in the last competition as the AN-94 won.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:13 am

    GarryB wrote:But the thing is that it is not a compromised design like say the APS which is only useful for underwater use.

    The ADS is a very compact assault rifle with a cocking handle that can be used left or right handed with the safety and fire selector on both sides of the weapon that has an empty shell case ejection system designed so that you can shoot it left or right handed without adjustment, and the makers claim it is accurate to 600m.

    It has a built in grenade launcher and rails to add more crap easily.

    For the Marines it can do the job of the APS and AK, but if it is good enough for the VDV to adopt it then it must be pretty good as a standard rifle too.

    I suspect the VDV like it because it is compact and very short yet is clearly accurate enough to be used as a rifle too because I can't really see them using the under water capacity much... except possibly as an ambush in rivers...

    It will be interesting to see which weapons make it, and of course with the political power of some companies the best rifle may not always win... but it didn't help in the last competition as the AN-94 won.

    Well of course the ADS is a very effective assault rifle, I'm not arguing otherwise Smile

    but it seems to me that if the VDV is going to replace their AK-74M's, then they should probably replace it with a rifle that is compatible with the AK-74M, such as the AK-12, as this will prevent teething and integration problems. Plus if compactness is an issue, the AK-12 comes in many variations, including a carbine model, as you have shown. Just my 2 cents.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:28 am

    In terms of compatibility that is really only relevant for scopes as the under barrel grenade launcher is fitted as standard, and a bayonet is a joke on such a short weapon, while the Picatinny type rail system means most new Russian scopes should fit without problems.

    That basically leaves magazines which should be compatible too...

    With the aid of Photoshop Elements and the images from theSmall Arms Illustrated page I was able to take the picture of the ADS and flip it to match the direction the AK-12s are facing and then make the ADS transparent in a layer on top of the AK-12 pictures and rescale the ADS till the 30 round mag on the ADS was the same size as the 30 round mag on the AK-12. The result shows that even with its stock folded the ADS is shorter than the standard AK-12,and is the same length as the carbine AK-12 when the carbine has its stock folded...

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 13 Ak-12_10

    All that while retaining a full length barrel has to be an advantage...

    Obviously they would need to be tested against one another and things like internal complexity and cost as well as accuracy and handling are obviously important as well.

    The point also is that the new underwater ammo is based on the standard 5.45mm round so it is possible that any rifle calibrated to the 5.45mm round could possibly use it.

    Another factor is that for soliders operating near water like a river or lake or the sea, that the new underwater ammo can be fired from the air into water or from the water at targets in the air or from underwater to a target underwater...
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:30 am

    good job on the photoshop thumbsup

    What I meant when I was referring to compatibility was that while I'm pretty sure you could simply convert an AK-74M into an AK-12, all the ADS's have to be built from scratch.

    And yeah the ADS is a brilliant rifle, but the modularity of the AK-12 is a more practical advantage for the army. Now for the VDV, where there soldiers need a compact rifle that won't get in their way while they're jumping out of planes and helicopters, I can definitely see the ADS coming in handy.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:42 am

    What I meant when I was referring to compatibility was that while I'm pretty sure you could simply convert an AK-74M into an AK-12, all the ADS's have to be built from scratch.

    Actually I am not so sure. The buttstock is probably the same so you could remove the old buttstock and replace it with a new buttstock, but most of the rest of the weapon appears to be different... the top cover is completely different and attaches differently with a latch on the side of the receiver to hold it rigid. The receiver is different because of the new selector on both sides and the front upper is different because the cocking handle is moved forward and of course the new barrel with improved rifling and even the pistol grip is different.

    Even the part behind the magazine well has a bolt hold open button on it and is new.

    The new from scratch weapon family is supposed to be fully modular which means it wont be backwards compatible either I think.

    And yeah the ADS is a brilliant rifle, but the modularity of the AK-12 is a more practical advantage for the army.

    I would think the ADS would be a very good rifle, but I don't know how complicated it is internally and have never seen one stripped down so it is hard to say whether it is as simple as an AK.

    Now for the VDV, where there soldiers need a compact rifle that won't get in their way while they're jumping out of planes and helicopters, I can definitely see the ADS coming in handy.

    Not just jumping out of planes however... in armoured vehicles of all types a short little compact weapon is easier.

    The folding stock of the AK-12 means it is not like an M16 or FN FAL which are very long weapons and in their issued models are not often with a folding stock to make them shorter.

    The one issue I can see with the ADS is the gap between the magazine and the pistol grip would make the 95 round drum almost impossible to use, and while a 30 round mag is good a 60 round mag will move the centre of gravity back and make it rear heavy.

    That would make it feel strange initially, but it would make the end you point at the bad guys lighter and faster to point so it might not be a bad thing. Of course the other aspect is that KBP might not have production capacity to make enough ADS rifles to equip the whole Russian Armed force whereas Izhevsk certainly could.

    We will have to wait and see I guess.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:56 am

    Once again great points Garry. I give up, I think what it really comes down to is that I just plain don't want the AK to leave Sad
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:27 am

    I agree, and have offered storage space for at least 20 of the older guns they might want to get rid of, along with some magazines and a few cases of ammo of course.

    But we can't afford to be nostalgic, the new rifles will offer better performance and in time their new super soldier system will become wide issue and will likely include fairly sophisticated communications and other systems and a new rifle that allows them to fit night vision gear will be useful.

    Remember they have spent a small fortune on licence producing thermal imager technology and are fitting them to a large portion of their armoured vehicles and aircraft, so it would be a bit silly if they equip their vehicles for night fighting and not equip their soldiers with rifles that can have scopes of various kinds including night vision scope attached to them, not to mention torches and lasers.

    There is always going to be some unit in the middle of nowhere that most have forgotten that still uses an old AK-74 and there seem to be plenty of AKMs floating around the place too so even if they changed right now to a new rifle or group of rifles it will be a considerable time before all the old weapons are gone.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:29 am

    BTW nostalgia is one thing but the last time I booted up my old Amiga 500 and saw that Workbench 1.3 screen it really took me back to a time when an operating system fitted on one 800K floppy disk.

    Might be the dust or the age but over a period of about ten minutes it shut down and restarted about 3 times for no obvious reason... still software worked without having to be installed and everything ran from floppies... slowly.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am

    Yeah, true, true. Who knows maybe they'll convert all the leftover AK-74's and AK-74M's to civilian standards and send them over to some of the Western Countries. That'd be a good way to get rid of all those AK's they have in storage too. $120 AK-74? Yes please! Cool russia
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:52 am

    I would say 4-5 million of them will be old AKMs that were withdrawn and replaced by AK-74s, and probably another 4-5 million of the other ones will be AK-74s from the 1980s that were replaced when new batches of AK-74s were bought.

    As such I would expect they would be fairly worn out.

    I rather suspect that any in good condition would be passed on to other agencies like border patrol and security services in Russia and the worn out weapons will be destroyed. I doubt they want the world buying cheap old worn out rifles when they can buy brand new AKs freshly made but still 40% or more cheaper than anything the west could make.

    Comes down to economics... don't flood the market you sell in with cheap stuff if you have more expensive newer stuff you want to sell.

    There might even be AK-47s included in storage when the AKMs went into mass production.

    I would also presume when they say they have 17 million Kalashnikovs in storage they mean all Kalashnikovs like the AKS-74U, and the RPK and RPK-74 and of course PKs and PKMs... remember the PKT is standard in pretty much all Russian Armoured vehicles as a coaxial weapon and as a turret mounted gun and we all should know what the K in PKM and PKT etc stands for.

    It was actually quite amusing as one time I was lurking on an MP.net thread where they were discussing a claim by a western official that the 5.56mm lacked range and that the enemy fire from Kalashnikovs was effective from 800m and the 5.56mm didn't have anything like the range needed to reply in kind... the number of US strong crew that jumped up and down at the idea that the 7.62 x 39mm could be effective at 800m... the same crew that claim an M4 can be effective at that range... there is a reason I don't bother posting there anymore.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:54 am

    Of course now that Russia is joining the WTO it will be interesting because all those bans in the US on imported weapons that don't contain US made parts actually violates the rules of the WTO which is supposed to be about free trade for everyone. You are not supposed to be able to discriminate or make rules against things not produced locally.

    Technically Russia should be able to impose punitive sanctions or tarriffs on US goods till the problem is corrected... it should be interesting. afro
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:28 am

    GarryB wrote:Of course now that Russia is joining the WTO it will be interesting because all those bans in the US on imported weapons that don't contain US made parts actually violates the rules of the WTO which is supposed to be about free trade for everyone. You are not supposed to be able to discriminate or make rules against things not produced locally.

    Technically Russia should be able to impose punitive sanctions or tarriffs on US goods till the problem is corrected... it should be interesting. afro
    Oh really? So does that mean I can get an all Russian AK?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:40 am

    It depends on what rights they gave up to get US approval for WTO accession.

    The rules of the WTO allows any member to make special entry requirements for any country wanting to join.

    Being a member cuts through a lot of red tape and rubbish, but agreements to join can be just as bad.

    No one uses economics as a weapon like the US does, yet in public they preach open markets and free trade and all that, but when it comes down to it they are the worst offenders when it comes to protectionism.
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:45 am

    Trust me I know it. Rolling Eyes

    Btw what happened to that modernized AK-107 with the new rear sight and the rails added on? Any chance that might make it? I'd love to see that.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:15 pm

    Check out this guy.. found this tidbit over on mp.net

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120322/172332421.html

    The development of weaponry based on new physics principles; direct-energy weapons, geophysical weapons, wave-energy weapons, genetic weapons, psychotronic weapons, etc., is part of the state arms procurement program for 2011-2020,” Serdyukov said at a meeting with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

    LOL Laughing

    Seems like Serdyukov is right up there with Zhirinovsky, pravda.ru & the loons that used to head the Russian space agency.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think the best attempt so far is the AK-12 but they are talking about a modular family of weapons that you can change between like changing the barrel of a GPMG, with different calibre and barrel length options which sounds interesting.

    I also like the ADS, which looks like an excellent weapon that has been accepted by the VDV, but we don't know if it is going to be a specialist weapon or a standard assault rifle. It is certainly compact enough and the ability to fire underwater is pretty unique amongst world powers.

    ADS definately has a use... in specialised units; Spetsnaz of various sorts, FSB troops, etc... As does the AEK-971, or perhaps the AK-12 with its rails and modularity could come in handy in the hands of proffesional soldiers in the N.Caucasus that would actually know what to fit onto it.

    But for everyone else - BS we just don't need it. What use would a weapon that fires underwater be to a VDV grunt? Even to a marine grunt it would be useless. The AK-74s that we have in store are enough for several Russian armies over and over again; as a weapon for the large amounts of conscripts we still have - it's perfectly adequate, in fact considerably more so than anything more complicated such as the AK-12, AEK and so on. For the largely conscript infantry in Marines, Motor-Rifles, VDV units; we have enough AK-74Ms - which are more suited for their needs.

    So instead of spending money on things we don't need - we should start spending money on things we do need - such as the amount of combat and firearms training that troops get, because for many isolated and ignored units it's atrocious still - in my barracks a full 1/3rd of the troops couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Believe me I know.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:25 pm

    Btw what happened to that modernized AK-107 with the new rear sight and the rails added on? Any chance that might make it? I'd love to see that.

    Pretty much as far as I know the Russian military has said they want everything to be upgraded and that includes small arms. To that effect they have said they will not be buying any AK-74s anymore, but that does not rule out buying AK-74M rifles if there is no alternative or if the alternative is not satisfactory (ie too expensive or not a good enough improvement to warrant the problems and costs associated with putting it into production).

    Note the AK-74M is pretty much the 5.45mm full length rifle barrel rifle in the AK-100 series with the black synthetic stock and rail scope mount etc.

    The AK-107 is likely being further developed as an inhouse program, along with the AK-200 and the AK-12, though with the AK-12 they might have stopped AK-200 development, or each rifle might still be in the game. The point is that all the other competition from Kovrov (AEK rifles) and KBP (ADS) and of course Nikonov (AN-94) will all be working on their rifles.

    I have pushed for balanced recoil rifle designs here but balanced recoil designs have been competing for the prize since the 1970s and are certainly not new developments and in the past have lost out to simpler cheaper options... till the An-94 won in the mid 1990s.

    The question is will the Russian Army replace the AK with the rifles in development now... I doubt it, because they are also working on a fundamental from scratch design of a family of weapons to replace most of the small arms the Russian military use, so any new rifle adopted now will likely only go to elite units first and perhaps a few other units later on.

    Certainly I know that the ADS has been adopted by the VDV, presumably for its compact size and accuracy, and I would suspect if it is good enough for them then the Naval Infantry will pick it too.

    The question in both cases is, will it be a specialist rifle for use where its useful features are critical, or will it be a standard issue weapon.

    Personally I think the ADS is more than just an AKS-74U, which is a very specialised weapon optimised for compact size but the cost is reduced effective range. The ADS has a full length barrel and is considered as good as if not better than the AK in terms of accuracy above the water.
    This means that the ADS has a chance to be a standard rifle that replaces all AK rifles in the units that use them.

    The development of weaponry based on new physics principles; direct-energy weapons, geophysical weapons, wave-energy weapons, genetic weapons, psychotronic weapons, etc., is part of the state arms procurement program for 2011-2020,” Serdyukov said at a meeting with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

    Don't knock it. Some of those ideas might lead to advancements in all sorts of technologies if not in weapons.

    I have personally seen a hand held surgical laser that looked like a pen chained to a suitcase that could burn through a phonebook in about two seconds... technology is moving forward and you don't want to be left out...

    ADS definately has a use... in specialised units; Spetsnaz of various sorts, FSB troops, etc... As does the AEK-971, or perhaps the AK-12 with its rails and modularity could come in handy in the hands of proffesional soldiers in the N.Caucasus that would actually know what to fit onto it.

    That is like saying what use is Shtora to an APFSDS round.

    If we were talking about the APS which is next to useless above water then I would agree, but this is a full power assault rifle that has been described as being as accurate as an AK but in a package that is closer in size to the AKS-74U.

    They might never have to shoot anyone underwater, but if they do then they have the capacity to do so.

    The point is that these rifles are much easier to use and in the case of the ADS much more compact.

    With the introduction of the super soldier stuff soldiers are going to get more and more stuff to attach to their rifles, and they can add a whole lot more of their own stuff to suit themselves too... that is a good thing in my opinion.

    For house to house fighting a front pistol grip is very handy, if it has a bipod in it too then it is useful for longer range shooting and with an improved barrel and ammo longer range shooting becomes more viable.

    For the largely conscript infantry in Marines, Motor-Rifles, VDV units; we have enough AK-74Ms - which are more suited for their needs.

    But the goals of the Russian military is to move towards contract soldiers and to stop buying old weapons and stimulate development of new stuff.

    So instead of spending money on things we don't need - we should start spending money on things we do need - such as the amount of combat and firearms training that troops get, because for many isolated and ignored units it's atrocious still - in my barracks a full 1/3rd of the troops couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Believe me I know.

    But that is the point isn't it? Spending money on new improved tools means you also have to spend money on using those tools effectively.

    Of course that is another issue many AR strong crew largely ignore... talking about 600m hits with an AR (some $5000 monstrosity with special new barrels and everything custom tweaked and an enormous scope), many ignore the fact that to hit targets at 600m you have to practise shooting at targets at that range.

    Without powerful scopes and custom rifles and special ammo real shooting performance is mediocre.

    Stats from Afghanistan from memory stated that the 95% range is 45m. In other words in combat 95% of troops can hit a target (not the bullseye mind you, just the target) at 45m. By the time the range reaches 150m the figure is below 25%...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:07 pm

    Found this photo of the ASh-12 with under-barrel grenade launcher:

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 13 5955069
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:15 pm

    Hm, well I hate to sound pessimistic Garry, but I wouldn't get my hopes up until we see some pictures.

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 13 Tacti-11

    Now what is this thing? It looks like an AK-74M with some kind of funky rail system going on.
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:37 am

    AK need a more accurate mordern design whilst keeping its ruggedness, durability, realitive cheapness, and realibility....Comeon, "upgrades" just dont cut it these days.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:33 am

    Found this photo of the ASh-12 with under-barrel grenade launcher:

    Nice.

    Have read different articles that suggest that the lower launcher might in fact be a 3 round suppressed launcher with 30mm grenades, but have no firm info.

    Now what is this thing? It looks like an AK-74M with some kind of funky rail system going on.

    If it isn't an American Airsofter, then it is some paramilitary guy with lots of aftermarket stuff added to his AK-74.

    Note the muzzle brake is not properly fitted...

    He has replaced the buttstock with an adjustible length one that looks like the ones fitted to the M4 and has replaced the front grips with ones fitted with rails with a pistol grip and torch fitted and for some reason he has turned the muzzle brake 90 degrees to direct the muzzle blast up and down rather than sideways.

    AK need a more accurate mordern design whilst keeping its ruggedness, durability, realitive cheapness, and realibility....Comeon, "upgrades" just dont cut it these days.

    Well I agree with what they are doing... there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the AK-74 design, a few minor changes to make it easier to use and add bits to, and I think it is a very good rifle.

    In fact I think if they adopt most of the changes they made to the AK-12 and applied it to the Vityaz 9mm SMG model then they will have come up with an MP4 killer in eastern block service.
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 13 Empty Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:44 am

    Hm, well I hate to sound pessimistic Garry, but I wouldn't get my hopes up until we see some pictures.

    It was a personal blog and they were talking about testing rather than introducing into service.

    And having said that a few pages back I posted a photo of a board showing new specialised ammo for Russian weapons and it included a few underwater cartridges like a 4.5 x 19mm round that can be fired in any 9mm pistol for use underwater, and a few rounds of 5.45mm calibre that can be fired by standard rifles in 5.45 x 39mm calibre... it did include a few 12.7 x 55mm rounds of both subsonic and supersonic design but none used sabot rounds for underwater use...


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