Russian Assault Rifles/Carbines/Machine Guns Thread: #1

What ever happened to AEK-971 ? I mean, seems simple and reliable, with recoil balancing mechanism... I mean, of course ak200 is nice, but i think it would be nice to see something new... I'm not a big fan of pic rails either...

Well, according to what I have read there were balanced recoil rifles in competition to replace the AKM in the 1970s.
The balanced recoil rifles were more accurate and easier to use, but the AK-74 was cheaper and easier to make and improved accuracy and reduced recoil with an effective muzzle brake.
The selling points were low cost and simplification of training because the AK was familiar.
Right now the focus was on accuracy and that was why the An-94 won the last tests, but its complex and expensive design have led to a re-evaluation.

Personally I think this AK-200 will be the last conventional AK that can be made in existing factories and will be largely similar to the previous rifles but will solve some issues. I think it will come as standard with a basic scope like the SUSAT for the SA80. I think it will have a folding stock and be covered in picatinny rails so almost anything can be attached. The double sized mag will mean fewer mag changes in combat for the penalty of a weight increase. I think it will have the balanced recoil system of the AK-107 and AK-108 so that in addition with a front pistol grip improving control recoil will be greatly reduced in single shot and burst fire.

Different enough to be an improvement all round, but no so different to make it expensive or hard to make.

The next assault rifle will likely be plastic case or caseless ammo, probably of 6.5-7mm calibre with 120-130 grain projectiles at fairly high velocities due to new propellents. Velocities in the 1,200-1,400mps range perhaps with plastic driving bands like on cannon shells to reduce wear and improve barrel life.

They already have scopes developed with laser range finders and sat nav systems and ballistic computers built in so the temperature, range, elevation and angle of shot can all be worked out with the ballistic performance of the round to allow an aimpoint be illuminated in the scope to show you where your bullet will hit... place that on the targets head and fire.

Note another development is the ADS bullpup assault rifle that can be fired underwater with special ammo that is being tested by Airborne and Naval Infantry units.

GarryB wrote:
They already have scopes developed with laser range finders and sat nav systems and ballistic computers built in so the temperature, range, elevation and angle of shot can all be worked out with the ballistic performance of the round to allow an aimpoint be illuminated in the scope to show you where your bullet will hit... place that on the targets head and fire.

Note another development is the ADS bullpup assault rifle that can be fired underwater with special ammo that is being tested by Airborne and Naval Infantry units.

It would be nice to see a bullpup design in a Russian military... Although there were several made like TKB-022 and TKB-517... also there was groza.. but for some reason non of them made it... As for Abakan- I dont think military will use them much,they are too complicated for a regular military... lots of moving components means lots of possibilities for something to go wrong...

Now I would love to see a a bullpup with recoil mechanism...with bullpups already being light and balanced, recoil mechanism will make it even more stable during automatic fire =)

I haven't read much about Plastic-cased rounds... but sounds like a great idea... It will lower weight of the kit a great deal..

The problem I have with the AN-94 is that the barrel moves under recoil like an artillery piece. Also it has pulleys and cables inside.

The practical result is an effective two shot burst fire mode that is probably effective, but I really think these are for highly trained units and not for the general soldier population.

As for bullpups have a look at the write up for the ADS it is a very interesting story about how having a dedicated underwater rifle was good but required two rifles to be carried on missions.

Their attempts at solutions can be seen in these three pages.

They start with this:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/aps-underwater-e.html

with special ammo, and then this hybrid rifle able to fire the underwater ammo and the standard 5.45mm ammo:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/asm-dt-sea-lion-e.html

And finally they changed to a new rifle of better design with a new type of underwater ammo compatible with a standard 5.45mm magazine:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ads-dvuhsredny-e.html

The above links mention the naval infantry and naval spetsnaz are testing the ADS and I have read on Russian news websites that the VDV are testing it as well, so I presume other Russian Special forces will be looking at this rifle too.

BTW the plastic cartridge case rounds are based on a US development for a light machine gun that uses the lighter ammo to reduce weight.

The weapon is called the LSAT and the ammo is cheaper and more compact than metal cased ammo but cheaper and more rugged than caseless ammo.

For a LMG with a 200 round belt the weight of the ammo can be enormous.

For the Russians the weight of a 100 round belt for the Pecheneg is almost 4kgs with the box... so that is half the weight of the weapon.
If you can halve the weight of the ammo without losing performance... well even if they only do it to replace the 7.62 x 54mmR ammo that will be good for the machine gunners and the snipers... of course they will more than likely not carry less, they will carry twice as much ammo.

here is a link:

http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/lsat-e.html

Now this is kickass

http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/36.html

for the 7.62 x 39mm and 5.56mm versions

US $386-571 depending on the version (one version with removable muzzle brake and unable to fire when stock is folded, cheaper model with removable MB and able to fire with folding stock folded) and of course the numbers you order... buy a huge number and get a lower price.

Personally I like the .22LR version here:

http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/191.html

This would be fun too:

http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim/imp/296.html

But I would want more than a 10 round mag for both of them.

This is a nice submachine gun PP-2000

Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?

I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.

Blah, so no Balanced recoil, improved Iron sights and Picatinny rails, that's it?

Where did you get all that from?

From the picture shown I would say it does have a balanced recoil system, which along with the already efficient muzzle brake and low recoil 5.45mm round would make it a very stable gun to fire in single shot, or burst fire.

I rather suspect there will only be backup iron sights and that a small cheap scope will be fitted as standard... it will likely have a fairly low magnification for a nice wide field of view but magnifying scopes and even night vision scopes could be mounted in front of it if necessary so that the rifle wont need to be re-zeroed.

Picatinny rails means that a Russian soldier can either use issued tacticrap, or buy his own from western and soon presumably Russian sources. It also means that there will soon be lots of Russian tacticrap to add to the existing tacticrap on the market so wannabes can drag rifles around the place covered in all sorts of rubbish.

I agree with Garry's sentiments, just making a AK into a M4, but that's not too bad, it still retains it's reliability so basically a Russian upgraded M4.

Not really.
An M4 is simply a short barrel M16.
This AK-200 is not just a short barrel AK-74.
It introduces an improved recoil mechanism that almost eliminates recoil... which the M4 does not do.
The AK gets its reliability because of the weight ratio between the bolt carrier and the bolt.
This gives the bolt carrier a lot of energy to move the bolt... even when the rifle is dirty.
This added to the felt recoil but not hugely so.
This recoil balancing system solves that problem.
It introduces a large capacity magazine, which the M4 does not do.
It retains the same barrel length of the original rifle, which the M4 does not do... because the M16 is a very long rifle, while the AK-74 is not.

At the end of the day an M4 is a short barrel assault rifle that is good to normal combat ranges but without the fragmentation effect of the long barrel 5.56mm rifles like the M16 or SA80.
The AK-200 fires a round not dependant on terminal velocity for a lethal effect as its round is designed to tumble on impact at any speed.

This is a low impact cosmetic update, that improves sighting improves compatibility with various extras, and improves handling, at the expense of a slight increase in complication and manufacturing costs. Handling and maintainence will not have dramatically changed.

This is a half step weapon you introduce while you either complete or start work on something much more radical possibly involving new types of propellent, new types of ammo... etc.

I would guess if they are moving to plastic cased ammo or caseless ammo that the first calibre they will change is the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre rifles and machine guns.

They could possibly even have a transitional ammunition with very compact propellent with very long projectiles that reach right back to where the primer is with the rear of the projectile acting as the primer with propellent around it and fin stabilisers at the rear where the projectile narrows. Such a long projectile cannot be spun fast enough to stabilise it with rifling so a couple of plastic driving bands (or in this case slipping bands) on the body of the projectile to reduce the spin effect of the rifling so that the very long projectile can be stabilised in flight by the tail fins. The combination of heavy mass and high velocity should result in fairly long effective flight range and flat trajectory... both useful for sniper rifles and machine guns.

The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.

The guy even said that Balanced recoil will require a complete redesign of the inerts which is "not affordable" in today's economy so I wouldn't think there's Balanced Recoil in the AK-200.

What guy?

And he is full of it.

The AK-107 and AK-108 already have balanced recoil systems and have the added advantage of burst fire modes too.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-10710-e.html

The Russians have been playing around with balanced recoil systems for rifles since the AKM was replaced by the AK-74.

The AK-74 won because it was cheaper to make and simpler to train troops to use because it was just an AKM in a different calibre.

The AN-94 won in 1994 because of its accuracy and performance despite its complication and manufacturing difficulty.

I would suspect the AK-200 with the AK-107/108s balanced recoil system would not be as complex to make or maintain as the AN-94 yet would offer a significant improvement in performance over the AK-74 especially in a 3 round burst fire mode.
At combat ranges a balanced recoil system and low recoil ammo and effective muzzle brake with a heavier 60 round mag would likely result in 3 round bursts putting all three rounds on or near the target unlike most other assault rifles with three round burst that put the first round in the knee, the second in the head and the third 2m above the head off into the wild blue yonder.

Russian Patriot wrote:Legendary Kalashnikov assault rifle: History and prospects

RIA Novosti

21:2926/05/2010 MOSCOW. (Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator) - The Russian armed forces will continue using firearms based on the assault rifle Mikhail Kalashnikov designed in 1947. Vladimir Gorodetsky, director of the Urals-based Izhevsk Mechanical Plant (Izhmash), which produces the legendary assault rifles, told this to the media on May 25.

Next year, the Defense Ministry will start testing a new model of Kalashnikov, the AK-200. The new model is lighter than its predecessor and has a more ergonomic design. However, the total weight of the device will be 3.8 kg (up from 3.3 kg), due to additional equipment, including a scope sight and a target-marking laser.

Do these improvements meet the current needs of the Russian army, or modern fighting practices more broadly? To answer this question, one needs to study complaints made about the most widely used and distributed military firearm in history.

1. Lower precision in single shot fire compared to similar Western models and noticeable climb in fully automatic fire, especially with the 7.62 mm version.

2. Difficulty in installing modern scope sights.

3. Non-ergonomic handle.

4. Obsolete open-barrel sight.

Most of the precision problems in basic AK models have been resolved by improving the quality of mass-produced rifles and ammunition, analysts say. Sometimes there can be a great difference between different Kalashnikovs of the same model but made by different producers in different countries because of production quality, components and ammunition.

As for the climb and recoil problems, they stem from details in the design itself; correcting those would require structural improvements, at least as significant as in the AK 107/108 versions, where the recoil is weaker due to its more balanced automatic mechanism. Such changes would eventually require designers to generate a whole new design concept for the firearm, which is impossible in the current economic situation.

Another option would be to use new recoil control devices (compensators).

The difficulty of installing scopes is due to the receiver cover's design: optical sights cannot be attached to it. The sights, fitted with a Picatinny attachment, would need to be adjusted whenever the cover is lifted or replaced.

Until recently, the sights were fitted to Kalashnikovs using a bracket on the left side of the receiver, significantly limiting the range of sights that could be used. The Picatinny gas tube attachment was introduced for the AK-200 series to solve this problem and the receiver cover was also improved. It is hinged to the receiver at the front and flips up, increasing its overall rigidity. Picatinny rails compatible with a range of optical and collimator sights can be installed on the rigid receiver.

Many professionals recognize the Kalashnikov's original open barrel sight as obsolete. Other experts argue that it is quite effective in open combat and only requires minor improvements.

Overall, the AK-200 series is a significant upgrade of the basic rifle, and the improvements made have not required a dramatic upgrade in production lines.

Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service are already buying small batches of new series firearms. Commercial production has to wait until the Defense Ministry's tests are complete. If the AK-200 goes into production, it would mean Russia joining the international trend towards improving existing models rather than re-inventing "the firearms of tomorrow," which saw only limited progress. Basic models can be upgraded by ergonomic design and added cutting-edge equipment.

Russia is in a better position than other countries as it escaped all those "firearms of tomorrow" projects thanks to events of the past 20 years.

The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100526-rianovosti04.htm

I wouldn't think RIAN is full of it, just because you have a different opinion with them. Besides, just because the previous model had it doesn't mean the current ones will.

The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

Normally I agree with this reporters views, but in this case I think the Russian military will want rather more than a warmed over AK otherwise the AEK rival might pip them at the post.

Remember the emphasis on hit probability that led to the AN-94 beating the Kalashnikov rivals?

I am sure Kalashnikov has.

Adding a scope and laser pointer as standard to every rifle doesn't seem to me to be going for cheap and simple, so an upgrade like a balanced recoil system which no other in service rifle has AFAIK might be what makes or breaks this new weapon.
The SA80 had an optic sight as standard in the late 1980s so this isn't really new.
Of course using optic sights makes training easier, though back up Iron sights could simply be built in to the rail to fold down when not needed.

Actually I have been thinking... no really, and what I was thinking was that if they did adopt the balanced recoil system as shown on the page I linked to above for the AK-107/108 then with the piston rod mechanically linked to the bolt... if you wanted to, you could remove the recoil spring from behind the bolt carrier and put it on both pistons instead. This could mean a much shorter recoil stroke and therefore a much shorter receiver, which should rather significantly reduce the length of the rifle and reduce weight without reducing barrel length.

In fact if you changed things around and used a bullpup layout you could really seriously shorten the rifle design while actually making the barrel a little longer.

Just thinking out loud.

I reckon I should be charging the Russian MIC for all my ideas...

Not every new Kalashnikov is going to be a break through, with Picitanny rails, this allows Russian weaponary to be able to hold a larger variety of Optics and tacticool equipment. 60 round magazine is fine too. Balanced recoil although nice would still be expensive to "add-on".

Balanced recoil although nice would still be expensive to "add-on".

I understand people thinking that but in my opinion without the balanced recoil system this isn't an AK-200, it is just an AK-74M2.

It wouldn't be that hard to take the plastic furniture and top cover off an AK-74M and replace those components with new components with picatinny rails fitted and fold down iron sights to them and remove the original rear and front Iron sights.
Add a 60 shot mag and all of a sudden you have an AK-200?

It is not enough to warrant the change... it would make rather more sense just to replace those 3 things (ie upper and lower front plastic grips and top cover) and replace them with models fitted with piccatinny rails... I bought a top cover with a rail mount on top and black plastic grips (without rails but I could just as easily bought some with rails on all sides of them too) for my Chinese AK and I can say it makes it easier to fit a scope, but I wouldn't consider it a new rifle because of it.

Quite frankly if there is no balanced recoil mechanism the real question becomes why would it take so long to get it into service?

What is the point of the testing it will be going through this year?

The only two things that really need testing is the 60 round mag and a balanced recoil mechanism.

Without a balanced recoil system why not just put it directly into service?

It's still new, still got testing procedures.

I wonder, how practical is 60 round mag ? 30 rounds of 5.45x39 is already pretty heavy... but 60 ! how big is the mag physically and what shape does it have?

According to this picture, it looks like any regular banana mag, but to me, it does look a tad elongated and fatter.




In fact, here's a nice visual comparison (60 round casket mag in middle and "standard" mags on the top left of it.)




Weight wise, a loaded AK-200 (presumably with the 60 round mag) is reported to weigh 3.8 kg, which is actually 0.2 kg lighter than a loaded M16. Practicality wise, there is some talk that the 60 round casket mag is actually not as reliable as regular mags, so, we'll see.

That doesn't look as bad as I thought... Not sure how ergonomic it will be if used for support (same way as people use m16 mag well for support), since its pretty wide... For positives there are prolonged firing, less time to reload, easier to reload... Its kinda interesting,i'm sure it will fit in any standard vest pouches, big advantage over 75rd drum... as for bad, Like Ironsniper said, reliability issues (as always as capacity increases, reliability decreases, evident even in 40 round RPK mags) I wonder will I ever see a soldier taping 2 of those together ? hahaha...

So just a newbie question , what is good about AK-200 over says AK-74 and AK-107/108 to be adopted as Russian Army next gen Assault rifle ?

The one thing I know is that it has piccatni rails that would give it the flexibility to use western add ons like scope etc

So does it have better muzzle velocity , better accuracy , longer range , better penetrating bullet and lighter weight ?

It's still new, still got testing procedures.

But apart from the new mag this new rifle without the balanced recoil mechanism is just an AK-74M with rails all over it and a new more rigid top cover with rails on it.

Guess we will find out soon enough.

I wonder, how practical is 60 round mag ? 30 rounds of 5.45x39 is already pretty heavy... but 60 ! how big is the mag physically and what shape does it have?

I think the idea is to reduce the number of mags you carry rather than try to make the soldier carry the same number of mags with more ammo.

Say you normally carried one mag in the weapon and 8 mags on your webbing... that is two mags stuffed into a four pocket chest mag carrier for a total of 9 mags which equals 270 rounds in mags with extra ammo in the pack.
With the new mag this means you carry 5 mags... one in the gun and 4 in the chest rig with 300 rounds in mags and extra ammo in the pack.

With any rifle there is one stoppage you can't avoid... the changing mag stoppage. By using 60 round mags you reduce the number of stoppages for a normal ammo load from 8 to 4.

The new mags are about the same length as a standard 30 round mag but are quad stacked so they are twice as thick.

Regarding weight it is not an issue because most soldiers tape two mags together anyway... so this is two mags stuck together that you don't have to remove and reinsert to use all 60 rounds.

According to this picture, it looks like any regular banana mag, but to me, it does look a tad elongated and fatter.

The 5.45mm bullets don't have parallel sides so when you stack them they don't stack up straight... there is a curve. The mags are curved to match the way the bullets stack on top of each other.
The 7.62 x 39mm are even less parallel so mags for them are even more curved.
5.56mm rounds are parallel and can be used in straight mags or slightly curved mags.

Weight wise, a loaded AK-200 (presumably with the 60 round mag) is reported to weigh 3.8 kg, which is actually 0.2 kg lighter than a loaded M16.

As mentioned in the initial article in the first post in this thread the new AK-200 is slightly heavier than an AK-74 when both are loaded. The point is that with two 30 round mags taped to each other the AK-74 probably weighs the same as the AK-200.

Personally I think the real break through with this new rifle is to make an AK-74 weight rifle with a balanced recoil mechanism.

The original design got its reliability through the ratio of weight between the bolt and the bolt carrier. The very heavy bolt carrier meant it had plenty of energy to extract the bolt and cycle the action even when dirty. This new design I think will take advantage of the mechanical gearing to greatly reduce the weight of the bolt carrier while maintaining reliability.
(My opinion only of course).

Practicality wise, there is some talk that the 60 round casket mag is actually not as reliable as regular mags, so, we'll see.

Have chatted to someone who has used them and he said the early prototypes were very reliable when new but reliability was reduced as they got used over time. At that time they were still working on them.

Of course at the end of the day if you find the 60 round mags are failing and useless then just go back to the 30 round mags.

Austin: This is an interim design, not a revolutionary design.
It is a bit like the new upgraded T-90 whatever it might be called. It fixes all the little issues and offers the best possible performance that could reasonably be achieved with the T-90 (AK-74) design so that it can be put into mass production and get it into service quickly. The next tank/gun will be designed from scratch to very specific needs and goals and might be quite revolutionary. The new tank might be all electric, with electric drive, electric gun, electric armour. The new gun might be a bullpup with caseless ammo issued in sealed plastic magazines.

From a bench rest the performance of the AK-74M is already very good with good ammo and someone who knows what they are doing using it.
What you will find however that if it has a low power scope as standard on it that aiming errors will be reduced and soldiers will find it easier to hit targets.
You will also find that in low light levels or at longer ranges a scope makes shooting easier too.

The new rail system lets the user add all sorts of bits of equipment that might or might not be useful... but what it also means is that Russian optics and added equipment companies can now adopt this standard and sell their equipment to the western market without adapters etc. Not everyone in the west will consider a Russian product, but it still means there are rather more potential buyers of Russian products than before... remember that with relatively widespread western private gun ownership the market is largely civilian, whereas in Russia the market is largely military/police etc.

[quote="GarryB"]

remember that with relatively widespread western private gun ownership the market is largely civilian, whereas in Russia the market is largely military/police etc.

Heck yeah, Ill buy it if it comes out on civilian market... I already have Ak-74... Now I want something newer =D

Oops, sorry I wasn't clear.

What I meant was that the new AK-200 using picatinny rails means that all the Russian companies supplying the Russian military will have to make their products compatible with such rails.

This means that they can also sell their products on western markets easier without adapters or modifications and that western companies will now have some more competition for bells a whistles for small arms.

This will be good for Russian accessory makers, but also it will introduce direct western competition into the Russian market as well so the Russian makers had better be on their toes.

Regarding the Rifle itself I think Russia production facilities will be pushed to re-equip the Russian armed forces let alone think about commercial exports.

I wonder if there will be shorter barrel carbine versions and long barrel LMG models as in the past?

AFAIK the Pecheneg is designated a LMG and replaces PKMs and RPK-74s in that role but it is quite heavy, though the extra power the round offers over the RPK-74 is significant. Also with its fixed barrel it means the weight of extra barrels is not an issue so in that sense a Pecheneg is lighter than a PKM with a spare barrel.

BTW I am jealous you have an AK-74.

I would actually like a bolt action rifle in 5.45mm as Barnaul and Wolf ammo is relatively easy to get here so they should be able to order the 5.45mm ammo too.
I have a single round in my cartridge collection but no rifle to fire it in as of yet. (My bullet collection is a bit patchy but includes rounds from .22 short through to a belt of 3 x 25mm shells that have been fired from a LAV III. (from my nephew)).